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#142221 - 07/30/08 01:19 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: benjammin]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: benjammin
Arrogance...We are fools to think we have that much influence on how this world works, one way or the other. At best, we only have a modest impact on our own existence.

We think far too highly of ourselves. Mother Nature hiccups, and we all buy the farm. Whether plastic bags take a year or a hundred or even a thousand to decompose, what difference will that make in the long run? If we ran out of oil tomorrow, how would that make any difference to how humanity will funtion 500 years from now? Any of these might be a temporary setback for us now, but the eventuality is that none of these things will make any difference over the long run, except maybe to force us to develop technologies a little bit faster to deal with the inconveniences.

Economics isn't really a natural science, any more than politics is.


I kind of agree. In the near term future, our lives specifically may be very much changed. If we suddenly had absolutley no petroleum products tomorrow, then our lives would change drastically. I'd be OK for a while. But many, including myself, would need to make some longterm changes to how I live, or I would not live. Many of us would not be able to make those changes, and because of that many would perish. But some would be able to make those changes. Some people would survive. There are areas in which most of the people still live a subsistence lifestyle, without a lot of dependence on petroleum. Provided enough can survive to maintain a population that can reproduce, the human race should still be here.

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#142223 - 07/30/08 01:21 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: benjammin]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
We are lucky oil is getting more expensive. Because if we can; we'll burn every drop and leave the global warming problem to our children. When it might be too late.
Governments are showing how real their commitment to stopping global warming is by their response to oil getting more expensive. 'Please OPEC pump more!' Using less is not even considered.
Since plastic bags are made of oil and every one in a landfill is some oil that wasn't burnt; aren't they a good thing for the environment?
The Sock
_________________________
The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

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#142225 - 07/30/08 01:28 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: Blast]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Re those evil plastic bags. Like everyone ('cept those who toss them in the first place), we hate seeing those damned things all over the place. And since more and more stores are talking about charging you for plastic, we have purchased a bunch of those reusable shopping bags. But, we used the plastic bags for our household garbage. No free plastic shopping bags, we will have to buy those rolls of plastic trash bags to use, since our trash still has to get from the home on wheels to the dumpster. Plastic still goes into the landfill, we just have to buy the bags instead of the stores giving them to us (and undoubtedly passing that cost on to us)...
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#142227 - 07/30/08 01:39 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Many of the grocery stores around here already charge 5 cents a bag. The reusable ones are OK but they require a certain amount of forethought. I'm not going to carry 4 of those bags around with me all the time because I might want to get groceries while I'm walking home from work.

Some stores are going back to paper but only the green and the nostalgic seem to think that's anything but a waste of time.

I like the MECs solution. Every time you take no bags they donate to charity on your behalf. The bags they do have are made from cornstarch and biodegradable. More stores could learn from them.

They also collect unwanted polyester clothing and recycle it. I'm not sure how much of that ends up back in their products but it must be at least some of it.

I'm not sure I buy the claim that locally grown fruit and veg can have a higher carbon footprint than those grown overseas. And regardless, there's no reason not to buy your grown groceries at the local farmers market. The prices are usually pretty good, the product is good, and you're supporting your local economy. Not to mention that locally grown usually has less chemicals on/in it than the stuff they ship around the world. I'd be more worried about that personally.

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#142228 - 07/30/08 01:45 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: Dan_McI]
Rodion Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: Dan_McI
I kind of agree. In the near term future, our lives specifically may be very much changed. If we suddenly had absolutley no petroleum products tomorrow, then our lives would change drastically. I'd be OK for a while. But many, including myself, would need to make some longterm changes to how I live, or I would not live. Many of us would not be able to make those changes, and because of that many would perish. But some would be able to make those changes. Some people would survive. There are areas in which most of the people still live a subsistence lifestyle, without a lot of dependence on petroleum. Provided enough can survive to maintain a population that can reproduce, the human race should still be here.


See, that's the problem: we always imagine a global crisis by way of Hollywood: The Day the Meteor Hit, or Banks Collapsed, or Oil Ran Out. Real life isn't like that. If oil starts runnig low, you won't suddenly find yourself in a post-industrial utopia. On the contrary, the governments in place will see a threat to their existence and respond with even more production, even more war, even more control over the population. Do not expect die-offs before kill-offs.

And you know what's the scariest part? The proverbial Big Brother state may very well pull through. Genetic engineering, currently restricted by ignorant technophobias, will explode all over the world if existential threats appear on the horizon. The possibilities for implementation at hand are staggering even now, think what they will look like by 2012. Now add incentive and presto: new energy, new power, new technologies and a new, very different, way of life.
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Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.

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#142231 - 07/30/08 01:55 PM Re: Things you don't need to worry about. [Re: ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...they require a certain amount of forethought..."

Most of the time we forget to take the darned things into the store with us, so I either have to make a run back to the truck, or we just have the checker put the stuff right back into the basket, then transfer it to our bags when we get out into the parking lot. And we still have to buy plastic trash bags. What a pain...
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