Well, I took your advice and sat on this overnight. I've gone over this post several times, and tried to cut out anything that might fan the flames and restart the animosity. But in the end, I came to the conclusion that this one last post (from me, on this topic) is worth making.

What is "civility"? If something offends me, is it uncivil of me to protest?

At what point does "standing up for what you believe in" turn into "childish, testosterone-ridden behaviour"?

I've argued points on this forum - vehemently and passionately. My philosophy on this is based on a story I once read, about an American tourist travelling in (pre-war) China. He saw two rickshaw drivers who'd had an accident engaged in an all-out screaming match at each other. He marveled that they had not come to physical blows, to which his guide responded "Oh, no. He who resorts to physical violence is only admitting that he has run out of words."

Well, I try very hard not to run out of words. I've argued controversial points, yes - but I try always to argue the point, not the person. I don't trot out my qualifications to say "I'm an expert, you have to listen to me", nor do I stoop to insulting the other party. The last personal insult I levelled was a reference to airport security guards as "rent-a-cops", and I apologised for that without being asked to. I've made fun of people's ideas, yes; but I was making fun of the idea, not the person who floated the idea. More importantly, I'm prepared to articulate why I think the idea was silly. If I can't, then I'll admit that the idea wasn't as silly as I thought.

I truly believe that, as long as you argue the issues, no matter how vehemently, passionately, even violently - as long as you stick to arguing the issues, you stand an odds-on chance of learning something. But if all someone wants to do is sidestep the issue, whether it's by deliberately misquoting other posters, verbally abusing them, simply ignoring points that have been raised, or changing the subject (which I've caught myself doing, I'll admit), then IMO that person is wasting everyone's time and bandwidth, including his own.

If you disagree with me, that's great - tell my why you disagree. My colleagues at work disagree with me all the time, and I disagree with them, and the customer disagrees with both of us. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, sometimes we compromise; but we have to be able to back our arguments up. That's being civil. "You're a jackass" or "That's the stupidest thing I ever heard" are not usually heard in the meeting rooms of corporations, because they're not rational arguments.

Point me to a URL, or some other reference. Come up with some facts, and tell me where you got them. Find a flaw in my argument, if you can; there's probably at least one.

Don't call me names.

Tell me why you think my idea is the stupidest thing you've ever heard, and I'll listen.

Don't use arguments if they won't stand up to close scrutiny; and if they don't stand up to close scrutiny, please don't get ticked off at me because I point that out.

I'm sorry, I don't know any other civilised way to have a discussion, unless we want to turn this forum into some Polly Purebred Playskool where nobody says anything that hasn't been pre-approved by a Committee, with ten signatures in purple crayon, in case we somehow, maybe, just might inadvertently offend someone. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />