After stating and participating in the "Dog Defense" thread, I have come to the conclusion I should get a handgun "and all that goes with it." This thread is to discuss what should go along with acquiring a handgun.

I have owned rifles and shotguns, but never a handgun. I have fired a few handguns, but none recently. I was never interested in handguns enough to pay them much attention. So this is new business for me.

My favorite brother is in law enforcement and I will lean on his experience pretty heavily. I a going to pay attention to what you guys recommend, too.

My expectation is some study of handguns, and enlisting my brother's advice through purchase and beyond. I hope to try several calibers of handguns at the shooting range.

After that I hope to have are extremely narrow range of candidates.

I understand there is a tiny possibility I can get some combat arms / close quarter’s combat training through my brother.

Gun, cleaning supplies, ammunition, trigger lock, and ?

What do you want the handgun for? Defense in the home? Defense out-of-home with a CCW (Carry Concealed Weapon) permit? If you're planning the CCW route, you also need to be concerned with handgun size (concealability). Hunting? Target shooting?

You will definitely need cleaning supplies with brushes, etc., sized for your caliber.

You will need ammunition (duh!) .22 caliber ammo will be cheapest and a reasonable handgun to learn with and target shoot with. Not suitable for defense though. Next up in cost would be 9mm (cheaper than other calibers, because it is so common). You'll see that once you move from .22 to anything else, the price of ammo jumps tremendously.

If you end up buying a semi-auto, you should probably buy some dummy rounds to practice safe handling with. With a semi-auto, you'll want to buy additional magazines also (probably two more to start with).

You will need to buy hearing protectors and safety glasses.

A good holster will be mandatory for out-of-home defense/CCW. There are many different types. Don't buy a holster for CCW use until after you've taken a training course (and learn the potential carry options).

A trigger lock may be required in your city. It would be a good idea if you have children. Either that, or some other way to securely keep your gun out of their hands. A small safe, etc.

You may want a case to carry your gun back and forth from the range. I go for the cheap Plano boxes myself. A metal military surplus ammo box is quite handy for lugging around ammo. Ammo get quite heavy and a plastic grocery store bag just isn't going to cut it.

At this point, I am thinking of a handgun for close quarters self-defense for home and for bug out / survival preparednes. I have not yet checked, but I probably will not meet California's concealed weapon permit requirements.

I have not yet explored recreational or other potential uses in California.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html

Link to Backwoods magazine article on 'hanguns 101'. There are more articles by him on their web site.

The Sock

These sound like contradictory roles. A handgun is a close quarters weapon. You won't be able to hit much outside indoor range. What do you mean by 'bug out/survival preparedeness'? I'd want a long arm for shooting my way out of a riot.
The Sock

While I'm at it; here's the rest of Mossad Ayoobs articles from Backwoods magazine. 'It's never a mistake to hear an experts advice' - Old Irish Saying.
The M1A — a rifle that makes a statement Issue #45
Here are some answers to often asked questions of anti-gunners Issue #45
Home handgun defense: simplicity suffices Issue #54
Defending your lifestyle Issue #60
Cheap guns are good enough Issue #62
Armed and Female Issue #63
Against a rapist Issue #65
Of kids and guns Issue #68
Picking a holster Issue #69
The rationale of the automatic rifle Issue #70
Armed citizens: the deterrent factor BHM Website Exclusive
Sight and sound enhancement Issue #71
Do rural homeowners need guns for self defense? Issue #72
Political activism, backwoods style Issue #75
Reflections on the Second Amendment Issue #77
Firearms and cold weather considerations Issue #79
In time of war: The Israeli answer to terrorism Issue #81
1911: the classic homeland security pistol Issue #83
How to shoot a handgun accurately Issue #85
Common sense about burglary prevention Issue #89
Armed civilians can help fight terrorism Issue #90
Firearms: tools of rural living Issue #91
Choose your ammo...police style Issue #93
Marlin 336: The other classic backwoods home deer rifle. Issue #95
Answering some well asked questions about personal defense Issue #97
How big a gun do you need? Issue #99
Centennial of the All-American .30-06 Issue #100
Frontier style handguns for the modern backwoods home Issue #101
The subtleties of safe firearms handling Issue #103
Avoiding legal traps Issue #105
Thoughts on ammunition Issue #108
Moderate power firearms Issue #110
Preparing gun owners for the short-term future Issue #111

The Sock

Here are all Ayoobs articles on the Backwoods Magazine website again. This time I hope the links work :-).
The Sock


Preparing gun owners for the short-term future http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob111.html

Moderate power firearms http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob110.html

Thoughts on [url=ammunitionhttp://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob108.html][url=ammunitionhttp://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob108.html][url=ammunitionhttp://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob108.html]ammunitionhttp://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob108.html[/url][/url][/url]

Avoiding legal traps http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob105.html

The subtleties of
safe firearms handling
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob103.html

Frontier style handguns for the modern backwoods home http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob101.html

Centennial of the
All-American .30-06 http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob100.html

How big a gun do you need? http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob99.html

Answering some well asked questions about personal defense
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob97.html

Marlin 336
The other classic backwoods home deer rifle
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob95.html

Choose your ammo ...police style
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

Firearms: tools of rural living
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob91.html

Armed civilians can help fight terrorism
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob90.html

Common sense about burglary prevention http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob89.html

Body language and threat recognition
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob87.html

Firearms handling refresher Part III: Rifles
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob040111.html

Firearms handling refresher Part II: Shotguns
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031221.html

How to shoot a handgun accurately http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

Firearms handling refresher Part I: Handguns
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html

1911: The classic homeland security pistol http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

In time of war The Israeli answer to terrorism
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html

Firearms and cold weather considerations
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob79.html

Reflections on the Second Amendment
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob77.html

Political activism, backwoods style
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob75.html

Do rural homeowners need guns for self-defense?
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob72.html

Armed citizens: the deterrent factor
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob0109.html

Sight and sound enhancement
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob71.html

The rationale of the automatic rifle
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob70.html

Picking a holster
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob69.html

Of kids and guns
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob68.html

Against a rapist
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob65.html

Armed and Female
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob63.html

Cheap guns are good enough
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html

Defending your lifestyle
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob60.html

Found some more:
The Sock
(a computer professional who just took 3 posts to send a list of links!)

Home handgun defense: simplicity suffices
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob54.html

The M1A a rifle that makes a statement
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob45.html

Here are some answers to often asked questions of anti-gunners
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob45a.html

Looks like some good information.

Definitely get the training. That is a major issue if you see yourself in a likely position of having to use it for defense. Training and ammo.

A lot of guys dis the 9mm and will tell you that caliber needs to start with a 4 (.45/.44), but 9mm works just fine with modern JHP ammo, it's a bit less expensive and the recoil is much more manageable.

Another option is to ask your favorite brother what he carries on duty and get that. Caliber isn't as important as reliability (you and the gun) and shot placement. After you get the training, get more ammo.

Unless things have improved in CA since I was last there (fat chance of that), you will not be able to purchase a handgun until you have had an "approved" weapons class at an approved place of instruction. Unless you are a LEO, in the military, or have a DD214 from prior military service. You will have to have a gun safe (not just a locking container) that is on the state approved list. In certain of the more rural counties you might be able to get a CCW permit, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that. You could read thru this , it will give you some idea of what is ahead for you.

Since you are brand new to the handgun thing, I would suggest you look at revolvers instead of semi-autos. Simple and easy to use, shorter learning curve (as long as you shoot single action. Accurate double action shooting takes longer to master). I have never fired one, only handled it, but the Taurus Judge that I believe someone has already mentioned on your dog thread might meet your needs. The .410 shotshells, or slugs, might hurt those dogs you are worried about, plus you could put meat in the pot with the shotshells. It is my understanding that accuracy with .45LC ammo is not fantastic, probably due to the long cylinder/barrel jump, but it would probably work for close range...

I don't say much as I 'lurk' and learn a lot. This topic however hits home as I've been in training over 20 years and am still a certified 'pistol' instructor. I spent a lot of time doing law enforcement, corrections officer and even civilian hand gun / shotgun training. With that said, getting a hand gun is a big step and will require a lot of time and effort to truly make it worthwhile.

So, get the weapon and supporting materials (ammo, cleaning stuff etc.) and very important, the training. Then practice - lots. A .22 conversion kit with what ever you get, while extra expense will be well worth the investment. A good holster, belt (and mag pouch if you go auto) are also necessary - DONT skimp on the holster/belt. Many cops and civilians training with the 'off duty' gun or weekend carry civilian style try to get by with an inexpensive holster on the belt they got at Macy's in men's clothing. I've got a holster, belt and mag pouch that set me back 300 bucks made by a pro and custom cut - but the gun always fits, always comes out when I draw, never shifts all day long, and is very secure. You may be betting your life on your gear so get the best you can for your situation.

To wrap up... if you do this, you must commit to training and continued practice with re-training for as long as you carry a sidearm. That's at least monthly and not a simple box of shells once or twice a year. That means time, money and serious (very serious) mental and physical effort on your part. Good luck and stay safe.

Paul -

Well, you can forget The Judge, looks like it is not on CA's list of approved handguns. Sorry 'bout that...

After the recent supreme court ruling, some of the restrictions in in CA may change. We'll have to see. But as of right now, you're probably more limited by what CA says is "right for you" than by any other concerns. That's unfortunate, but hopefully it will change soon.

When I got my first handgun, I didn't heed the advice to get a .22 first, and I have mild regret. I developed a bad habit of flinching with my 9mm that I had to un-learn. I think that if I'd have started with a .22, I would have had an easier time learning to shoot properly. There are a lot of other reasons to get one (accuracy, economy, for starters), but I thought I'd add this one.

I also think that the needs for concealed carry are different enough from target/home use that they will lead to different solutions. For concealed carry, a light, compact gun with a quality belt and holster are very important. Although I have a dependable carry gun, I do wish it were a bit smaller. The holster and belt do help a lot, but I still find myself thinking about smaller/lighter options, especially on hot summer days...

Without this need for concealment, however, I would lean toward a full size (vs. compact), metal frame (vs. polymer) handgun. There are lots of options, so it needs to be one that feels good and that you can shoot well. It's really great that there are so many quality handguns, and I'm hesitant to recommend just one.

Ruger GP100, stainless steel, 6" barrel.

Powerful weapon, but not so powerful that you can't control it. Extremely durable, built like a tank. Take care of it, and it will take care of you.

Why a revolver? Because they're dependable. Less opportunity for mechanical failure. And if you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks.

Possession of a DD214 is no longer sufficient proof ot training under the last Grey Davis insult.The myth of a handgun being inaccurate at range is just that. Within the limits of the cartridge some rather suprising results can be obtained.The 45LC is at a disadvantage for several reasons; the change from .454 to .451 bullet and barrel kept a comparatively weak black powder case now married to .451 bullets and a .454 cylinder. Unless you cast soft .451 slug that can upset in the rifling accuracy will suffer. The platforms are a mixed lot- and HEAVY. All factory ammo is loaded for black powder frame Cols, still a very potent round and probably pushing the usefull limits of the case. The SA mode is very comfortable, but you will need training to put multiple rounds downrange. The modern S& W 'N' frame is a nice package, but current production is horrid compared to even the last 3 screw pinned barrel jobs. The older Colt New Service revolvers are now heavily collected, a shame as they are .454, but also have a virtually useless DA pull.Forget the .45LC for a first handgun. A DA revolver will allow a better matching of hand ergonomics; frame size and aftermarket grips, safety and is the fastest weapon to be brought into action. Quality revolvers also handle different cartridges many semis out of the box cannot.You need to put aside ALL preconceived parameters for handguns. Sometimes a particular package simply works well with different people. I first qualified with a S & W Victory in the service. My gunner's Mate wisely started me with one since I had no prior experience. I shot expert and by week's end repeated it with a 1911 (superb instruction, not any inate ability.)After owning and shooting just about every caliber and platform, I ironically find a old Model 10 Smith and Wesson with 6" barrel and plain vanilla 158 grain ( or 200 grain superpolice when I find them)the best all around package for home defense. Ed McGivern was right!

As for things that go with them, I like:

LifeJacket (vs. a trigger lock). I like that it covers the action, as well as the magazine release, and doesn't touch the trigger. I bought mine at Academy.
http://www.life-jacket.com/lifejacket/intro.html

Wilderness Tactical Belt (5 stitch) as a good value that works well.
http://store.thewilderness.com/product_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=1186

The Belt Man belts for a more traditional looking belt that holds up even better (costs more, but still a great value).
http://www.thebeltman.net/

Fast access handgun safe. This is where mine goes when it's not in the main safe or on my person. (There are many good options, this is just the one I have):
http://www.winchesterevault.com/

For the car, my wife and I each have one of these (keyed alike). Works well when carrying and you have to go in somewhere that is off-limits:
http://www.center-of-mass.com/

No "disclaimers" in my post, ok? I'll use common, everyday, factual terminology (which sometimes offends the faint of heart).

A handgun for self-defense is meant to kill. It is a deadly weapon. It's not to wound or "incapacitate". At the moment the decision is made to use it, the victim's life is in danger and the attacker cannot be stopped any other way. Death is imminent - for one or the other. Make sure it's the other.

I'd recommend a .40 caliber semi-auto from a reputable manufacturer. SIG Arms, Heckler & Koch, and Glock come immediately to mind. There are others, of course. Get three magazines (or more). Get a double-action only, meaning it fires like a revolver - each pull of the trigger fires and resets the hammer.

Other accessories (some of which you probably already own): hearing protection; magazine reloading assist; carry bag for going to the range; gun cleaning kit for .40 cal (or any with extra .40 cal brushes); holster (Isreali Fobus friction-retention paddle holster is one of my favorites [NO retention strap or release button!]).

Learn how to shoot it well from your brother or other instructor(s) and practice often. Make sure you learn, understand, and practice (to the point of muscle memory) the "tap, rack, bang" principle for the inevitable misfeed. Generally speaking, the better quality the weapon and the better care given to it, the lesser the chance of misfeeds and other problems.

Good luck! By using your 2nd Amendment rights and enhancing them by getting a "self-defense" weapon, you are, in my oh-so-humble opinion, a great American!

Any weapon used for self-defense is meant to stop the threat. It may or may not kill the person presenting the threat, that doesn't alter the fact that its purpose is to stop the threat, not kill the person of the threat.

Just about any handgun caliber can kill; stopping the threat in a timely manner is another thing altogether and takes more gun than one designed to just kill. Some folks use the argument that professional hit-men/killers use a .22LR as justification to use a .22LR pistol for PD. That's a bad argument IMO. Coldly assassinating someone from ambush and defending yourself in a PD situation are totally different actions requiring different tactics.

Personally, for PD in the home I will almost always go for a 12 ga shotgun, more destructive than any common pistol caliber.

I have a lot of reading to do, thanks!

FYI, the handgun will companion a 12 guage shotgun.

A handgun gives you 2 things, shorter so they are easier to carry and can be concealed. Although a rifle or shotgun with a sling is easy to carry, just as easy as a handgun. Handguns lack power compared to rifles & shotguns. A shotgun will handle a pack of dogs better then any handgun.


If it’s important to have a concealed gun, go with a handgun. If not a pump shotgun is the way to go.

A 22 should almost always be the first gun, but people don’t like to hear this and don’t listen to this advice. A 22 is not “A Mans Gun” so it’s dismissed right away. But it really is a good choice.

No Russ, you're absolutely right. Good point.

For years (24 now) I've been taught the purpose is to "stop the threat". As a firearms and use of force instructor, that is the wording I must use when teaching. It's politically correct BS, of course, hence the first sentence or paragraph of my post. I wanted to be realistic and not mince words with a man who, while familiar with firearms, is not with handguns and his purpose for buying one is for self-defense.

Here is reality: a firearm is a deadly weapon. It is used only when deadly force is necessary. Whatever you hit may die, though not everything will. If we could stop the threat with something less deadly, we would, and legally should. However, for so many unlisted reasons, reality gets in the way again.

I don;t recommend a .22 for self-defense (nor a .38, nor a .380, nor a 9mm [though it will suffice]).

This is an opinion of mine (<------ disclaimer)

Here's a good web forum for california.

http://www.calguns.net/

At the store you'll take a written (multiple choice) gun safety test. Its about around $25 or so and is good for something like 10 years. For storage, if your safe is not on the CalDOJ list of approved gun safes you're required to buy a gun lock (if it doesn't come with one.) Also, you can only purchase one handgun every 30 days, and you must wait 10 days after purchase and filling out DROS paperwork to pick it up. Oh, and you must bring either your car registration with current name/address or a recent gas/electric utility bill.

Everyone: this is a public web site. Shoot a burglar and the cops aren't going to just congratulate on your markmanship and smile. You'll be investigated and when the prosecutor finds you use this site (which will be a 'survivalist' site in court, just as the deceased will suddenly be 'a trespasser') any 'shoot to kill' type comments you make here, are going to come back to haunt you.
And you shouldn't be aiming to kill anyone in the first place. You aren't a judge, jury and executioner.
The Sock

The Sock, this thread was started by a man asking for advice about the firearm and accesories he plans to use for self-defense. Legalities are always a concern and were not meant to be eliminated or disregarded in my post. I understand England has a different view than America on protection of self and I suppose that's allright. No firearm should ever be used to "wound" (exceptions for snipers in authorative situations). Wounding is not the purpose of a firearm nor is it a sane alternative when your life is in imminent danger (note the use of the word "life"..... not limb, or car, or bicycle). If we can "wound" a person to save our (or loved one's) lives, then we didn;t need a firearm, generally speaking.

Those squeamish with the end result of a firearm's projectile should not purchase one and should leave their self-defense up to the police or other persons not afraid to save a life. I suspect the OP is not of that personality and, if I'm right, should go ahead with the purchase and understand the full, ugly, and sometimes legally liable consequence of its use. Somehow I suspect he does and understands what I'm trying to say.

Also, shooting burglars is merely a perception of yours and possibly others. I hope (and trust) the OP isn't buying a self-defense weapon for shooting burglars (or con-men, or drug dealers, or shoplifters). While some States authorize the use of deadly force in protection of property, it's certainly not what I consider a situation for the use of a firearm (deadly weapon). Each post I've written in this thread is consistent: my opinion is the firearm is to be used for self-defense (not necessarily shootin' up burglars, for example).... self-defense when a person's life is in imminent danger.

There is one more thing, if it's allright:


True, the cops won;t smile and congratulate you, BUT they certainly will when out of your earshot! That is, IF the burglar was armed and, when confronted, threatened your life. Of course, just running around the house in your skivvies shootin' up burglars, as previously stated, is frowned upon by even the most congratulatory policeman.

Good post, Stretch. I couldn't agree more.

Dweste: Required reading for anyone who possesses an arm for self-defense (and actually it probably should be required reading for men generally): To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth, by Col. Jeff Cooper

Sorry, but the only reason to shoot something is to kill it. If you aren't willing to kill it, then you shouldn't shoot at all.
Self-defense is very much different than protecting your property. Except maybe in Texas.

Exactly right. There is no "half way" when you use deadly force; you don't shoot to wound or knock the gun out of the bad guy's hand. State laws differ somewhat, but by and large if you are at home and in fear for your life, you are justified to shoot center mass until the threat stops. Then reload and watch for the bad guy's partner. Call 9-1-1 and then call a lawyer.

IANAL, check your state's deadly force laws. $.02

My brother has actually urged a home defense plan, for reasons not relevant to a public discussion, with multiple concealed but quickly accesible instruments of force allowing a graduated response. He also advised it is easier to put down a shotgun or use its weight as an improvised weapon than to get it if the initial evaluation of need was incorrect. Something to be said about the deterrent effect of a shotgun being pumped being one of the few things for which we can thank Hollywood.

If you have kids in your home, even occasionally this is a very bad idea. They will find them and play with them. Kids are very good at this.


and I'm not sure what you mean by graduated response, if someone breaks in and you are in fear for yours and your families live. You point a gun at the problem guy and tell them to stop, if they don’t, you shoot (to kill) to protect your live. No graduation about it, stop or die, that’s it.

Mine too.

Along with the Ruger GP100 I have a Remington 870 with Brenneke "Black Magic" slugs.

Rem 870 w/ 00Buck backed by a Glock w/ 147 gr Gold Dots.

You need to practice with the shotgun too. At HD ranges it needs to be aimed cause the pattern is still tight. I've found shooting Skeet with an IC choke is very good practice.

No kids.

"I heard a noise where none should have been and grabbed my bat and turned on the outside light to investigate. I was shocked to see a couple guys carrying some kind of weapons and tools and realized my bat would do no good, so I got my pepper spray and handgun.

When they tried to break in and didn't stop when I told them to, I dialed 911 then, or maybe I dialed 911 later, it was chaos and i don't really remember. I didn't think they could get in but suddenly it looked like they could. When I used the pepper spray through the hidden vent above the door it slowed them down but after a bit they returned. I was now in fear for my life and grabbed my shotgun, too, and yelled that I had it and would use it if they didn't leave.

I heard them now trying to get in a couple different places. There was no where for me to excape the situation. I discharged my handgun into the ceiling to prove I had it in hopes they would leave. I was afraid for my life.

They were not deterred and began firing into my house. I hid behind the couch. I thought they were going to kill me. I did not wait for them to succeed in getting in and fired my handgun through my doors and walls. I was afraid for my life.

No, they fired into my house before I fired at them.

It got very quiet except for some cursing and crying - none of it mine. I waited for the police to arrive, and then threw up a bit in the toilet; I flushed it three or four times and cleaned things up. The police took my stuff as evidence.

I don't know why the victims don't remember me yelling at them to stop or hearing the warning shot I fired into the ceiling.
Yes the couch I hid behind is reinforced to be relatively bulletproof. I thought they were going to kill me.

No, I didn't discharge my handgun into the ceiling after the fact. Yes, that part of the ceiling has been reinforced so you fire a handgun into it with minimal damage to the house and none to the roof, HVAC, electrical, or other home systems.

It was a graduated self-defense response that met the escalating threat to my life. I thought they were going to kill me. I was afraid for my life. My brother suggested all this; here's his card. Yes, he is in law enforcement - I'm guessing he will be here in a few minutes whether I call him or not.

Yes, this is a form letter I prepared ahead of time. I used it as a way to think through this kind of situation, never intending to use it, of course."

IIRC according to my last CCW instructor, the accuracy rate among LEO's under duress (in a gunfight, for example) is 2 out of 10 rounds. Now I know statistics are fraught with problems, but *still*... LEO's usually have lots more training than citizens when it comes to taking down a bad guy.

Ever had buck fever? The shakes? The buck isn't out to kill you. In a gunfight, the bad guy is. I've been in one gun confrontation and my brain just went on autopilot. I forgot to take the safety off the shotgun even though I practiced it over and over. Luckily the perp that was on the other side of the door was unarmed. This is why a DAO is such a good option. (BTW, the racking of the shell with the slide didn't phase the perp in the slightest...he was so stoned I don't think he even knew what the sound was)

So, missing six rounds is not unthinkable and may not indicate that one's aim sucks.

Why did you waste ammunition and put your neighbors at risk with a warning shot? If you are justified to shoot, you are justified to shoot center mass.

A bad guy knows he's a bad guy. He knows he isn't supposed to break and enter. Getting shot by a scared homeowner is part of the job description.

The police have a requirement to notify that they are police, "Stop or I'll shoot" and all that, but even they are responsible to account for every shot they fire and warning shots by definition don't hit the bad guy. Do police fire warning shots?

I don't think warning shots are required, desired or wise. Those are just stray rounds that need to stop somewhere and you better hope nobody -- specifically your neighbors -- gets hit by your warning shot. I like my neighbors, no way will I put them at risk with warning shots or firing through doors. Shotgun rounds/shot/balls that exit a body are moving much slower.

If put in your scenario with bad guys breaking in my door with the knowledge that I'm inside, my first shot will be center mass as soon as the door is out of the way. The second guy can listen for the shotgun racking in the round with his name on it. I'll probably be on the walkaround with the 9-1-1 operator until the shooting starts, the phone will fall where it falls.

I believe this is still on topic because the original post stated "all that goes with it."

Ditto on debunking the myth of shoot-to-wound. No such thing should be attempted in a self-defense situation.

However, it was said above that using deadly force on a burglar should be only when you are in fear of your life. In my state, that is most certainly not the case.

You may be surprised to find the legal freedom of engaging someone that has entered your home without your permission in some states that have "castle" laws. In my state, the perp does not need to be armed nor threatening your life. You do not need to retreat to a back room. You can come out with guns blazing and the law will be on your side.

In my state, if you enter (even without breaking a lock!)uninvited you are in dire danger if the homeowner knows the law.

I'm so glad I live in this state. :-)

And, BTW, having such laws behind the homeowner helps you defend yourself from the inevitable lawsuits that will dog you.

For a novice, I recommend getting a big well trained dog too. A good dog will buy you some precious time while you fumble for your gun.

It never hurts to have options. What if the "problem guy" was a disoriented alzheimer's patient in pajamas who thought he was home? Target identification is a necessity, as is a plan to deal with lesser threats.

A Chicago federal judge was stalked and her family killed a while back by an unhappy defendant. Local media interviewed a US marshal subsequently. His recommendation for home security-not a gun, not an alarm: a dog. Most bad guys just avoid places with dogs in them, and even if no one breaks in, you have a dog. Attack cats qualify, too but you gotta have signs cuz they don't bark.

LOL That's some funny stuff right there!!!!

Waiting for the Blast comeback...

However, it was said above that using deadly force on a burglar should be only when you are in fear of your life. In my state, that is most certainly not the case.

I stand corrected again, if you were referring to my post. I should not have inferred that deadly force should "never" be used to protect property... I erred on the side of reason as opposed to my natural thought process which is: "You're not even getting in the door, if I have a say about it".

Good for your State and the laws it's enacted. The protection of property is important and, even if not immediately life-threatening, can quickly turn so as soon as an owner asserts his right to the property being taken. This, I think, is why many States do allow deadly force to be used to protect property. I am of generally the same opinion.

The probelm with burglary is the inherent danger. As Russ said, the burglary KNOWS who he is and what he's doing. That's a deadly situation waiting to happen. So.... while I don;t think deadly force should be used in every situation where there is an unwanted person in the home (nor do I think you do either), more often that not, deadly force probably should be used. Each is its own case, of course.

Attack cats leave their own signs. If you are lucky it's just squirrel heads and mice feet piled by the doors.

Psycho attack cats leave human blood sprayed across the walls, ceiling, and windows.

The trick has always been how to carry him concealed. No way I'm putting him in my pants...

-Blast

Family dogs are unreliable. Dogs trained for the job are expen$ive, require ongoing training and a knowledgeable handler.

Image courtesy of Oleg Volk, THR

I'll toss in my .02...


First, get training, and not from your brother. I'm not saying your brother isn't knowledgeable -- I have no way to know that -- but relatives are often not the best people to train us. Further, there is a lot that you can learn from a good training facility that you can't replicate on a normal firing range for safety reasons. Make sure that the FIRST training you get covers all of the legal issues pertinent to your state.

Second, the most important factor to me in choosing a handgun, especially for a new shooter, is fit. The better your chosen weapon fits your hand, the more naturally it will point* and the more accurate you will be with it. After you learn to properly grip a handgun, try a LOT of different guns with that proper grip. Try to rent a selection of those that feel best to you, and shoot them.

Third, well there is no third. But I'll toss an observation out here: There was study done on the un-nerving effect of racking a shotgun on criminals. Turns out, it doesn't really scare them. It does, however, give your position away. Just food for thought.

------------------

*EDIT: That isn't to say pointing is the only benefit, though. A good fit also means you can manipulate the trigger properly, that the gun behaves better in recoil, that you can reach all the controls on it better, etc.

Stretch wrote:
<A handgun for self-defense is meant to kill.

< For years (24 now) I've been taught the purpose is to "stop the threat". As a firearms and use of force instructor, that is the wording I must use when teaching. It's politically correct BS, of course, >

"So you never had any intention of wounding this poor widows husband? You only intended to kill! You weren't trying to stop the threat as you claim! You think anything but killing is politically correct BS! Y"

Sorry pressed submit too early.
Am I taking Stretch's comments out of context? Am I distorting them?
Of course I am. When a compensation lawyer is after your house that is exactly what he is going to do.
I might add the most dangerous things on this website are some of the signatures (and mine is the worst).
"So you think 'people who think you are dumb are going to just be more surprised when you kill them' do you? Now you expect us to believe you don't see yourself as a killer?" Your own words condemn you.
Read the Ayoob article 'Avoiding legal traps' i posted a link to earlier. It's scary.
The Sock

The FTO/instructor in me is kicking in again. There is a lot of very good advice and information in this thread - think long and hard about all of it. Get to a library and/or borrow - buy some books too. Ayoob is excellent and has several good books out. Get some stuff by Applegate and read up on stuff by Col. Dave Grossman too.

The handgun is one part and the "all that goes with it" is another. Getting, using and having one is about 10 - 20% physical and equipment the rest is 80-90% mental. If you don't have the "correct" head set it can all be for nothing or will make a bad situation worse. That's why any basic firearms training spends most of the time in the classroom and only a small part on the actual range firing. Be sure you really want to do this and are willing to deal with the "all" included with it then go get the best stuff and training you can find. Best of luck.

Paul -

Handgun ownership is (or should be) a mindset as well as a toolset.

Massad Ayoob reading to be prepared for the court fight after the gun fight. Very sensible and easy to read.

Jeff Cooper and other good gun reading.

Be sure and get recognized training. THEN practice a lot.
Practice 100 rounds of .22 for each 10 rounds of anything bigger. This will keep you from developing a flinch or if you begin to flinch, go back to the .22 to reduce it. (I have to do this after 5 rounds of .44Mag)

I was an evening Range Officer at a local indoor range every Thurs for 3 years. (shot about 15,000 rounds of my own during that time)

I saw many, many people start to get pretty good with .22 then as soon as they brought in their 9mm, they couldn't even hit the paper anymore. I don't like 9mm because of the sharp recoil that seems to ruin marksmanship. Folks wouldn't get so bad so quickly with a .45ACP.

Welcome to full citizenship (and the oppressed gun-rights class).

Interesting, I find 9mm from a Glock 19 very easy to shoot. I definitely have less tendency to flinch than with a 1911A1 in .45ACP. One reason I chose the G-19 for carry was that it fit my hand and was so easy to shoot well. Maybe it's the 147 gr Gold Dot ammo.

I agree wrt shooting lots of .22. I bought a Ruger .22/45 and would shoot two boxes of .22 and then two magazines of .45. .22LR groups were very tight -- .45 not so much.

Shotguns won't wake you up at night when a prowler comes around.

Shotguns won't walk with you around the neighborhood to improve your aerobic fitness and acquaint you with your perimeter.

Shotguns won't delay the bad guy while you get a shotgun

And shotguns won't crap on the floor, vomit on the comforter, and track mud into the kitchen, all of which my pack did today.

Maybe a balanced approach: a dog and a shotgun. Better yet, a dog with a shotgun, carried around his neck like a st. bernards brandy barrel. You would need wide doorways...

I'm going to take the opposite approach of most others who have posted. I think your primary concern, first and foremost, should be stopping power. You don't get something for nothing. The only way to accomplish low recoil is by taking away power.

It doesn't matter how easy a gun is to shoot if the person you shoot with it doesn't go down. And I've seen enough videos of liqour store thieves getting shot and not going down to believe this happens a lot.

Find a gun that will devestate your target, and then practice with it and learn to control it.

That would be dweste's 12 gauge shotgun.

"...Sorry, but the only reason to shoot something is to kill it..."

Don't EVER say that in court! Assuming of course you are talking about a shot badguy here. You shoot to stop, the fact that he/she died, while always possible, is not the reason you fired. You fired to make him/her stop before you or someone else got hurt...

Good food for thought. In my experience, racking the round did nothing to scare the perp away on the other side of the door. My wife and I stayed as quiet as possible (whispering to the 911 dispatcher, etc.)during the whole episode.

My Dad asked me why I didn't yell out, "Hey man, I've got a shotgun and you'd better git!"

My answer: That would tell the perp exactly where I was and how I was armed. Nothing like giving your enemy all the intelligence he needs for free!

Look at everything through the eyes of a potential prosecutor deciding whether or not to charge you.

Then look again through the eyes of a potential jury.

That's why I have a lawyer.

I've seen too many outrageous verdicts for me to presume to know what anyone is thinking.

I'll just stick with the old rule "never point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill."

I've spent a total of about 20 years prosecuting (and for a while defending) persons charged with crimes. Whenever one person fires a gun at another person, the law presumes knowledge that a likely consequence is serious physical harm or death. This is true whether it is a single-barrel .410 loaded with birdshot or a .223 semi-automatic rifle with a full clip of FMJs. Intent, on the other hand, depends more upon the surrounding circumstances. That is where the gun used can be suggestive. In my example, the .410 is not strongly indicative of a specific intent to kill, while the .223 is more indicative.

In many states, if there is evidence of an intent to kill and the claim is that self defense justified that intent, then the threat faced by the person must have been such that it would cause a reasonable person to respond with that degree of force. Most court decisions with which I am familiar recognize that you can't always pause to carefully consider the "correct" amount of force with which to counter an attack.

The "unknown intruder in the middle of the night" scenario is not one that poses a problem for a prosecutor. The breaks typically go to the homeowner, not the burglar. It is the far more frequent shooting "in self defense" following an argument or series of arguments between the parties that turns the black and white of the law into shifting shades of gray.

Thank you, Frank.

And in states where they have "castle doctrine" laws, it is quite amazing how far the law will support the homeowner. IIRC, my state just passed a homeowner civil lawsuit protection if the home invader is shot.

Here is my state's law: (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.

If one leaves the front door open, and the person announces that they are coming in...no, you can't shoot them (duh!) but if they open the door "quietly" to sneak in, all bets are off. No forced entry must be proven.

I respectfully disagree. It doesn't matter how powerful the shot was that missed the target. And IMHO, the difference in real-world stopping power between .45, .40, 10mm, 9mm, 357sig, etc. is not as great as many would make it out to be. Certain calibers may be better at a given task (i.e., 357sig may be better for barrier penetration, .45 may be better if using non-expanding ammo, etc.), but if you are not expecting to run into one of these more specialized conditions routinely, these calibers are more similar than distinct in capabilities. Unless you need barrier penetration, 357sig is reportedly no better than 9mm although it is definitely "more powerful", but it will kick a lot harder and cost you a lot more for the ammo.

Recoil can be reduced in other ways besides reduction of power. My .45 is easier and more fun to shoot (less obnoxious feeling recoil) than my .380. Light and small handguns will have more perceived recoil than than a larger heavier one (unless this statement is taken to ridiculous extremes, like comparing a .22 to a .357mag)

Don't put too much confidence in the legal system. Their goal is not truth and justice. Their goal is to win the case, period.

True story:

When I was 15 years old one of my older brother's friends threatened me with a baseball bat inside my own home. He was an adult and he was bigger than me. So I picked up another baseball bat and I hit him before he could have a chance to hit me.

I thought I acted in self defense then, and 20 years later I still think I acted in self defense. But I was arrested and convicted of assault with a deadly weapon. The aggressor spent some time in the hospital then went home, and I, the defender, went to a desert in Nevada until I was 18 years old.

I have much respect for human beings, but I lost all respect for the legal system 20 years ago.

Compared to what? A serious injury? Dying? One of your family members dying? A lawsuit from injuring a perp? Everything is relative.



True. But so do guns.

Following through on training for either choices is key.

Being able to find, and ready a gun in the dark, after being woken up from a deep sleep is pretty tough. Again, any dog will help tip the odds in your favor by alerting you before they are busting down your bedroom door.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that most home invasions are committed by more than one person. Truly the odds are not in your favor if this is true. A good dog is huge advantage.

A dog or two would be great, but I cannot afford the investment of time that dogs deserve and require, much less their added expense. Plus I would need training that I also cannot afford.

Frankly I think the dogs-for-survival topic deserves its own thread.

Without going into detail, note that in my scenario nobody actually got through into my home. Like the flex zones of a car body, there are inexpensive measures you can use to upgrade your door and window areas to slow down penetration. This gives you increased response time.

Re: Stopping Power.

What stops an aggressor is one of three things:

1. They decide to stop themselves. They may do this at the sight of an armed defender, or they may do this because they don't like getting shot. Either way, nobody but the aggressor has control over this one. No handgun hits hard enough to influence this factor.

2. They stop due to loss of consciousness from blood loss. This can take time. Really, no handgun is going to cause much more speed in blood loss versus any other. Achieving rapid blood loss means hitting high COM and busting the heart or other organs or major arteries. Unless psychological factors come into play, blood loss won't necessarily stop someone fast enough to prevent them from harming you, as the FBI found out in the Miami shoot out.

3. A hit to the brain or upper part of the spine can cause incapacitation from CNS damage. The spine is well protected from a frontal shot, and a very narrow target. The brain is protected by a skull, which is a thicker and tougher than you might expect. The head is also a moving target, and in most circumstances, trying to shoot a head under stress is irresponsible, as you dramatically increase the chances of missing, and the bullet is going somewhere.

So, what does that leave as a criteria for a defensive handgun?

Really, it leaves a shotgun. Handguns aren't ideal tools for self defense.

Except that a gun you have with you is better than one you don't. Handguns offer portability.

Once you have sufficient power to penetrate the chest wall and skull, you've got the ability to poke holes in the bits that may cause someone to stop aggressing.

When you go about poking holes in the aggressor, you want to do it with due speed and accuracy. You don't need a major caliber to do this. What you need is a caliber that will poke a hole repeatedly and quickly, and that you can control.

I have no problem at all with folks getting a dog as a pet. If it happens to be a good watch dog which will alert you in time to wake up and be better prepared all the better. Some folks though expect their pet dog to be a guard dog which is a major step up from a watch dog.

My comments were to the statement: No gun, no alarm, just a dog. The US marshal was advocating letting the dog do all the heavy lifting and that's a lot of responsibility for a "pet".

Police K-9's go for about $5K as an untrained youngster with good bloodlines. Check out the pricetag on a Schutzhund qualified German Shepherd. The same breeder will sell you a "pet quality" dog from the same litter for less money, but don't expect the same drives and nerve as the dog that LE buys.

Folks who want a dog as a "pet" could go nuts with a high energy GSD looking for something to do. They need constant exercise and training. If you want a pet you may as well go for the pet quality dog to start with and get a gun to back him up. Taking it a step further, what if the first thing a bad guy does after breaking into your home is shoot the dog in front of him that's making all the noise? If all you have is the dog you are out of options.

I like dogs, but all I want the dog to do is wake me up and then stay out of the way. I do not want Rin Tin Tin getting in my line of fire. If a bad guy avoids my home altogether because of the dog all the better, but I'm not going to rely on that single animal to do all the work.

Dogs are excellent alarm systems. Provided you train them not to bark when it's not necessary.

Of course, alarm systems are excellent alarm systems too.

Reinforcing doors and windows is good.

Putting up a fence, even a low one, is good.

Planting prickly plants under windows is good.

Motion sensor lights outside are good.

Keeping a charged cell phone in the bedroom with you at night is good.

Doing all of the above may prevent a problem before the need for a gun comes into play. If that need does arise, the presence of all of the above measures can only reflect on you in a positive way, and may provide partial evidence of intent of the bad guy.

My dogs are a three-pronged defense. First, the Newfoundland runs at you for a joyous licking, but accidentally knocks you down when she jumps up and puts her paws on top of your head. Many people run when they see her coming because she looks more like a black bear than a dog. Then the German Shepard distracts you by snarling and barking ferociously. Then the Jack Russel Terrier sneaks up during the distraction and bites you in the nuts.

;-)

The higher the caliber, the more it's gonna hurt. The more it hurts, the more likely you're gonna stop. I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.

I'm deciding to join on this a bit late, but here's some recently developed thoughts I have. Currently, I've been on the Trauma Service at a hopsital in downtown Detroit. On my patient list, at this exact moment, I have 10 patients with gunshot wounds. Over the last 3 weeks, I've seen probably close to 50 patients with gunshots.

People I've seen survive:
shots to the head (including those that penetrate the brain)
shots to the chest
birdshot
buckshot
multiple (10+) gunshot wounds

So, based on these 50 or so encounters, I've decided that it's not number of shots, or caliber, it's SHOT PLACEMENT. The ONE person that's died on my shifts had a head wound with brain material coming out. In contrast, I have 3 patients currently with head wounds that are not dead, including a person that took a hit in the forehead. The take home message is, in a SELF DEFENSE SITUATION A) hit what you aim at, B) aim at parts that stop the person (you don't always have to kill) and C) shoot until they stop. Many of my patients kept running after being shot multiple times. Someone could easily run to you, not away.

Again, idle musings based on treating lots of shot people.

I think it can also have a lot to do with the cartridge contruction. I've read more than one account where a cartridge from a caliber was ineffective in (quickly) stopping someone with multiple shots, whereas a differently constructed cartridge in the same caliber can kill a person dead with one shot.
Of course, I've never shot anyone so it's all hearsay to me...

1. Being alive does not equal being a threat, so statistics on who is still alive at the hospital says nothing about whether or not the person who shot them saved his own life by doing so.

2. You did not say what caliber bullet was used on the ones who kept running. If it was a small caliber, that only reinforces my point that bigger is better.

3. Earlier in this thread someone told me that the accuracy rate of cops in duress is only 2 out of 10. If that's true, then you can throw shot placement out the window.

Shot placement rules.

Ok, I went back and found it. This is the post that, if true, means that your shot placement will be mostly a matter of luck and not practice.

Forgive me if this is repeated information....there are just too many posts to go through to see if this has been posted before....if so...sorry.

As a certified instructor, I will reccomend the following for your study....(books)

In The Graves Extreme (The role of the firearm in personal protection) by Massad Ayoob

Stressfire (all volumes) by Massad Ayoob

In Self Defense (the legal, ethical and tactical use of deadly force) by Michael T Izumi

All are (IMHO) excellent reads....and I recommend them wholeheartedly. I often suggest them to any student I am to train as reading BEFORE coming to the class. A lot of time they come in saying how much more informed they are. It usually generates a lot of questions....but those questions are always excellent and usually more advanced than the questions the student had planned on asking before they read the books.

No I don't think they are the 'end all, be all' of the information you need....but they are an excellent start.

Agreed.



This is true too. However, I see puppies with Top SchH competition/work potential get sold for well under $2,000 every week. I admit, this is still real money. But a purebreed anything will cost this much too.

I know of dogs that have been rescued at the dog pound that have gone on to do real service work. Cost does not translate into a good dog. Drive translates into a good dog. People in the business joke that the best working dog in the world right now is sitting in someone's back yard and will never be breed or trained. Who knows? It just might be your dog.

If you tell the police that you shot to kill, you will need one..

Rebuttal time!
1) I wasn't giving stats, just personal observation. However, aside from the guy who died in the ED, and the guy with 14 shots in the ICU, most of them were still mobile. In fact, I'd say that the most debilitated, in terms of being a non-threat, were the 3 femur fractures, the two eye injuries, and a few of the chest shots. A couple abdomen wounds were still pretty mobile. That being said, "Ambulatory" doesn't equal "legitamite threat."

2) Calibers are all over the place. It's also hard to tell after the bullet is deformed, or penetrated through a person. However, all the shotgun wounds so far have been less than fatal (suprisingly). The one person hit with buckshot probably could have kept running, had 1 pellet not broken his femur. It seems that pistol calibers are, therefore, unreliable in predicting the actual damage inflicted (by choosing based on "number" alone). Even the person shot in the forehead was awake, alert, and moving all extremities when they arrived.

3) That's pretty depressing. Better practice reloading, or getting a gun with a big magazine.

My point, not even typed, was that I've seen a bunch of people shot, and most have lived to discharge home. So, don't automatically assume a gun will kill/stop a person intent on harm. Even multiple hits, on a non-drugged person, won't necessarily eliminate a threat. Be aware of that, and don't make assumptions about a gun's capability.

Chances are, if you shoot them in the gut, you'll get your chance to meet them. Very up close and personal.

Where did you get the information that a shot to the gut (i.e., mid to lower abdominal area) is going to do much of anything in the short term? A direct hit to the spine/aorta/vena cava might do it, but that's a pretty small target. A fractured pelvis could give them a bit of a slowing limp, but such gut shots aren't something anyone with training would go for intentionally. Irregardless of caliber.

It's not pain that stops an attacker. And a larger caliber is not really going to be any more painful than a smaller one anyway. I would fear a .32 to the chest a lot more than a .45 to the gut.

I'm not saying the gut is the best place to shoot them. I was replying to another poster who said that a handgun can't stop an attacker unless you hit a vital area. My point was simply that a .44 Magnum gutshot is going to stop you.

1 & 2. Again, the debate here is whether a big caliber is more effective than a small caliber. If you don't know which calibers were used on your patients, then your information is incomplete and therefore irrelevent. My guess (and this is only a guess) would be that the majority are 9mm since that's the most popular caliber in the United States.

3. That was what I said originally. If you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks. But his reply to me was that even the police, who have more firearms training than the average citizen, are inaccurate under duress.

By the way, this thread has multiple conversations going on at the same time. It's kinda important to pay attention to the context in which my posts are made.

Even if it does stop him, "How long did it take him to stop?" It might not stop an attacker before he killed the homeowner.

A gut shot is far from a CNS hit and it won't drop the bad guy's blood pressure like clipping the critical upper chest pipes and organs.

IANAD either.

Actually, I'm making a reply more along the lines of the first page of comments, not so much "which caliber to buy." you're right, there are several discussions going. But the OP is about "what should go along with acquiring a handgun." In my post, you should think about the realities of gunfire - even with multiple hits, you may not stop someone. Edit: part of the problem, I admit, is that my screen is set up as a first-to-last, not by thread view. I didn't read all 6 pages before posting, just used your comments as a starting point for mine.

Not sure how you can call my information incomplete, though I would agree that 9mm is statistically most likely. Doctors don't really care what caliber was used, that's for the detectives. We're more interested in plugging the holes and keeping them breathing. Most bullets are left in place anyway, instead of tearing up the body more trying to find the darned things. Given the generic nature of the OP - "pistol" - not a specific caliber, I feel my observations are still valid. Besides, even if I knew every caliber, I still wouldn't know if the round was a standard round, or a +P, a +P+ or a hand-loaded round!

As an aside, even using "caliber" as a refernce tool is kind of a moot point. After all, a .22, .223, or 22-250 are all darned similar calibers, with widely different uses (even though they're rifles, the point stands). Since kinetic energy is affected more by velocity than mass, I'd think a faster bullet would be more harmful than a slow one, provided that the round effectively tranferred that energy into the target. The practical example is a paintball: .68 caliber, yet usually restricted to about 300fps. Bigger round than the good ole .50, but I'd rather have the latter than the former for taking out targets.

Maybe a few days later when they stop living due to septic shock from the digestive contents that leaked into their abdomen. But that doesn't help you as the the victim one bit during the actual attack.

They'll probably just look down, say "I've been shot! That one went clean through-and-through! I'm gonna kill you you $%&)@^!!!", and continue attacking you. I'll give you that you should use the largest most powerful caliber that you can easily control and place shots well with. But if you can't control the largest/most powerful, you should back down on the power you chose, not the control. I know I can't shoot a .44mag well. I've only shot one on one occasion, and that was more than enough. A few shots with one of those cannons will tell any normal person that this is not a personal defense handgun (except maybe Dirty Harry). A .357mag is the most I can control well enough for defensive use, and even that's really pushing it for me. I would not choose that for my defensive weapon, even though it's one of the best choices if you only look at terminal ballistics and ignore the control issue. Some people can control a .357 well during rapid fire/stress, but for many it's pretty marginal if not impossible.

People recover from serious injuries. People die from minor injuries. A Harvard study on patient safety a few years reached the alarming conclusion that significant errors in medical treatment-wrong drug, wrong treatment, wrong patient, like that-occur at the rate of one per patient per hospital day. If you can wound 'em enough to get them into the hospital, we will take care of it for you from there. The big gun versus little gun debate is a moo point. (do you mean moot point? No, I mean moo point-only cows care). Big guns make big holes, little guns make little holes so you need to make more of them, and it matters where you make the hole. Getting barked at by a dog is discouraging. Getting bitten by a dog is discouraging. Getting shot at is more discouraging. Getting shot at and hit is very discouraging. None of these things will solve every problem that comes along, just as the DRPSK will not equip you to survive every scenario. The value in all this is not the conclusion, it is the discussion. Everyone is right. Kum ba yah, good neighbors.

.44 Mag is overrated as a PD handgun caliber. It's okay for PD as long as it's a reduced charge and payload. One of my fav loads is 240 gr hard cast lead SWC at 1000 FPS. Ithits hard and is accurate too. Slow fire, .44 Mag can be very accurate and carry a lot of energy (relative to handguns) at 100 yds, but that's hardly a PD shot. But most guys with a .44 magnum want to shoot 240 gr at 1250-1400 FPS because a .44 Magnum is all about power IMO those loads are brutal to the shooter.

But like I stated, IMO .44 Mag is overrated. I went back to 9mm in a Glock G-19 for carry. The newer 147 gr loadings have plenty of penetration and the Gold Dot opens up nicely. That and it groups well for me with relatively mild recoil. YMMV, lotsa different valid opinions. $.02

"...If you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks..."

I know of two different CHP officers who put six rounds of what used to be called the "Treasury Load," a 110 gr HP, +P+ .38 spl into badguys without stopping him. One BG multi-officers then swarmed, the other officer, while getting his bell run with a ball peen hammer, pulled out a 2" .38 and put two more rounds in center of mass. The bad guy then stated something like "hey, you shot me," dropped the hammer, and sat down. Neither died. That load was considered to be a pretty hot load too...

Since everyone in this thread is telling everyone else in this thread that guns don’t stop a bad guy, we should all just give up and sell our guns.

It’s turning into my gun choice is more deadly then your gun choice.

Step back and read what is being posted.


The fact is that guns work to stop people, every police force and military force knows this, quit reading this testosterone thread and just buy a gun if you want one and keep it around to protect yourself.

A "pretty hot load" with a very fast lightly constructed bullet. It probably expanded and slowed down quickly with little penetration. That's one problem with the "energy dump" theory of terminal ballistics.

Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition
Evan P. Marshall & Edwin J. Sanow
If you want to know how handgun ammunition will work against human targets in the future, you must look at how similar ammo has worked against human targets in the past. This is exactly what Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow did with the release of their seminal books Handgun Stopping Power in 1992 and Street Stoppers in 1996. Now, they continue their groundbreaking work in Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition. Many useful facts can be gathered at autopsy tables and in laboratory experiments, but they cannot account for the dynamics of an actual gunfight or the varied reactions of criminals who get struck by bullets. Like its best-selling predecessors, Stopping Power takes these factors into consideration and bases its conclusions on real-world facts from real-world armed encounters. It provides the latest street results of actual police and civilian shootings in all of the major handgun calibers, from .22 LR through .45 ACP, plus more than 30 chapters of vital interest to all gun owners, including: the results of brand-new ammunition test protocol of the U.S. Border Patrol, which is involved in more gunfights than any other federal law enforcement agency the emergence of the hot new police caliber, the .357 SIG, as a potent man stopper, as well as the continued success of the .40 S&W on the streets the story behind the development of the latest exotic ammunition, including the .400 Cor-Bon, Triton .40 Super, and 5.7 x 28mm street results for major rifle and shotgun loads, short-barrel handgun ballistics, and an enlightening chapter predicting the effectiveness of black powder firearms The only thing worse than being involved in a gunfight is losing one. The information contained in this book will help you choose the right bullets for your gun so you don't lose.

The Sock

All this argument about pistol rounds and stopping power... how many people have you seen keep coming at you with a 12ga to the chest? Anyone, I'm curious?

Sock,
Marshall & Sanow have been thoroughly discredited. Their "work" has been academically questioned and they won't release the raw data to back up the claims made in the book. IOW, the book is a work of fiction being marketed as "street results". Don't go there. . .

I know I'm comming in late here......
First I would get some hands on training and shooting time. Learn how to handle, safely, firearms in general. How to reload them, aim them etc....
Armed with that knowledge go and pick one out. Try them on for fit in hand, ease of ergonomics etc.... You may choose either a revolver or automatic. Whatever floats your boat, bearing in mind the semi-auto pistol has a different manual of arms than a revolver and requires a little more to get/keep them going. Not much, but a little.
You now have some training (get as much as you can) and a firearm. Get something to secure it from prying fingers, be they child or adult theif.
Next get a good cleaning kit for your firearm. Reason why so many criminals guns fail to fire is that they are either a junk gun, prone to failure or dirty to the point of failure. You wash your hand after using the bathroom? "Wash" your guns after going to the range.
So, now you have training, a firearm, means to keep firearm safe from unwanted acess and the means to keep it up and running. Next I'll discuss accessories.......

-Bill Liptak

Accessories......
If you are planning on concealed carry, assuming you can get the licence, a good belt is a must. I use a wilderness belt. Someone here has mentioned "thebeltman" for a leather one and I admit I've been looking there too.... So if ya need/want a good leather belt I'd go there. Buy a good holster. Yes, even the 25 dollar fobus qualifies as good. Damn good. I own several for differnt pistols I own. I perfer Galco for inside the waistband carry. Bear in mind you will probably need to loose a few pounds or buy pants one size up for this option. Unless you like and own pants that are on the baggy side. Loose fitting tie-died t-shirts help break up the pattern of a pistol underneath, as do "Hawaaiian" type shirts. In todays society with all the cell phones and junk people throw on their belts concealing a lump is easier than it used to be.
If you have an automatic pistol that has an accessory rail under it you may want a light (or laser/light combo) for it. Slide on the light before you go to bed, now you don't have to fumble for/with a pistol AND a light, they are already there. Go for the light before the laser, has more benefits.
Most autopistols come with 2 mags, get a third. If you went for a revolver get a speedloader (or2) and practice with them. Remember to use dummy rounds for this, you don't want an accidental discharge.
And at this point I "think" you will be pretty much set.
As far as caliber debates I'll keep it simple. Look what police and military forces use. It will insure a pleantiful "stock" of said calibers and chances are they use it cause it works. When the gun owner does his part, as in shot placement and a good powder charge under a reliable hollowpoint bullet design.
Remember as OBG said, you shoot to stop a threat, not kill. Yea, sad political b.s. But its the game you play. Remember, anything short of a CNS shot may not put the threat down immediately. Keep shooting until the threat stops. A man can go 8 to 10 seconds, even after a direct heart hit. It may take time and more rounds, keep shooting until the threat is gone

-Bill Liptak

That is exactly what they did. When they first came out they felt almost like a .357 mag, and bad guys dropped like stones. Then it was obvious that recoil starting going down, and bad guys didn't. But lots of people like fast light bullets...

The "what do you need" part of the question is pretty simple. If you have other guns you should already have cleaning supplies, eye/ear protection, secure storage, etc.

As for which gun and caliber. Stick with a major manufacturer in a common self defense chambering and you should be fine. Most folks I know will tell you > or = 9mm/.38 Spl +P. This is the part of the issue that always goes off the rails and turns into a Ford vs Chevy; Ginger vs Mary Ann discussion.

If you're in an area where political correctness counts it might be prudent to stick to something very similar to whatever the local police carry.

If there is ANY way you can do it, scrape together the time and funds for a good pistol class.

Have you ever been punched really hard in the stomach? I have, and it can be temporarily incapacitating. I've seen tough guys buckle over after getting a solid punch in the gut. Now imagine a .44 bullet exploding your stomach.

Yeah, you're goin down.

When did .44 start EXPLODING in your stomach... ? Are you using special ammo?

From what I've seen a .44 will make a clean hole through your entire body. Not exactly the same as exploding inside of you.

Or did I miss something?

Mass + energy + soft target = massive damage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txvbUAGefas

I wouldn't be aiming for the stomach. I would be aiming for center mass. A hit anywhere is going to hurt like a mother******.

I want aexploding .44 pistol! I've only owned a Colt New Service in .44 russian, Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 SPL, Smith and Wesson model 24 5 screw and a ruger superblackhawk in .44 magnum. 44s do not expload.They are more likely to fully exit before even an expanding design will. 44 special commercial loads are wretched for accuracy and are strictly a handloder's affair to glean the fine accuracy it is capable of.The old Hatcher formulae based on live animal testing, the accumulated statistics of gunfights are nothing but rough guidelines. You people want a REAL EXPERT? go down to South central l.A. and I'll introduce you to a african- american ( she prefers BLACK) grandmother who sings in the church choir and bakes incredible cinnamin rolls. Grandma Davis has sent 3 robbers and home invaders to the hospital with a vintage Smith .38 five shot 2" ( the shrouded hammer pocket pistol)and a box of 158 grain roundnose.I wouldn't cross that woman with a TWO high capacity wizz bang ca'tridges, tritium night sights, stippled frames and PABST recoil gloves and a new pair of lemonade yaller shooting glasses. She aims for the crotch.

The bullet doesn't explode. The flesh explodes as a result of a large object impacting at high speed. It's called physics.

Pain is not a reliable mechanism to stop someone, particularly if they are mentally unstable or high on various substances. Heck, even adrenaline greatly raises most people's pain threshold quite a bit.

No, it's called hydrostatic displacement.And once more, all this archair pistolero discussion is just that. In the real world people have survived direct hits from 20 MM cannons while others drop dead from a 22. It is an inexact science, and no amount of anecdotal statistics or murdered ballistic gelatin will change that one salient fact.We recently lost a very well regarded Policeman in NYC in a stupid car accident. He was in more than one fully documented shoottout where he took out multiple bad guys. his weapon? A issue .38 special

Amen to that Chris. My condolences to the officer's family and to all who are in the Dept, for their loss.

I didn't want to snip any of your quote because it is very good and TRUE. I'm sorry that you were so unjustly served. Justice cannot be guaranteed, nor even expected. I myself have had a little taste of the wrong side of the law (charges dropped, thank heavens) but I would have defended myself the same way today. (I just would have called the cops before the thugs did.) It was a sick, gross, unreal feeling to have the cops grill me after Mirandizing (sp!) me. I can only imagine how hard it would be to have a guilty verdict handed down.

However, that being said, just this week a man was shot dead in broad daylight after having an argument. The aggressor took off his backpack and "came at" the other, with NO WEAPON. The other man shot him dead. Now, according to my CCW training, the threat was imminent (check!) the intent was iffy (did he say he was going to kill him?) and the ability was suspect (no weapon, unkown if the aggressor was much larger than the shooter). In my book, the D.A. should have probably filed charges. They DIDN'T, and released a statement saying they would not be seeking to file them!

Maybe it's just in certain states, but it seems the self-defense alibi is still alive and kicking. One thing that helped him immensely was that he stayed right there and called the cops himself. They didn't even book him!

So, knowing the law can't hurt, and can help you design your defense plan. If the court case goes horribly wrong, chalk it up to life's sick ironies and try to survive the rest of it. But you will be ALIVE and the perp will be dead.

Readers may want to do a websearch for the late Jim Cirillo of the NYPD stakeout squad.

Now there was a guy who was cool under pressure, and could shoot! And if I recall correctly, not a real fan of the doubletap...

He was involved in developing a line of commercial ammunition at hte time of his tragic death. I never heard much more, except it was a lighter wieght .38 special.

That would be me. And that is NOT what I said. You need to go back and re-read the entire post and understand what I said.

People have been hit with a lot more devastating rounds than anything a handgun can come up with and kept fighting.

I'll say it again:

Pain can not be relied upon to stop an attacker.

What part of that is not clear?

I also NEVER said a larger caliber is not more effective.

I use a commander sized, lightweight 1911. (Kimber Pro Carry II, .45ACP) It fits the criteria I outlined above:

1. It can poke a hole in someone.
2. I can place my shots VERY accurately with it.
3. I can place my shots in rapid succession with it.

You hand my gun to a novice shooter, stoked with hot defensive rounds, and you will NOT get the same results.

While I was blowing one ragged hole out of the center of my target today at the range, the guy next to me was shooting fairly loose, but more than adequate, groups with his 9mm. He had a steel framed Colt Commander with him, same size as my Kimber and a bit heavier. When he shot the .45 his groups went WAY up. For HIM, the 9mm was ideal. It was a service sized gun in a lighter caliber. He could poke holes in things with it.

Take that down a notch to someone who is a novice shooter who is recoil sensitive, let's say an older shooter with arthritic hands. If the gun they can poke holes with rapidly and accurately is a .38spl or a .380, then that is the gun for THEM.

What comes FIRST is the ability to hit HIGH COM, and to do it in rapid succession. Caliber choice is SECONDARY to that.

If you're busy gut shotting someone with a .44 mag while they're shredding your vital organs with a .380, you won't be in much shape to make spurious arguments about the effectiveness of what is in the grand scheme of things a very underpowered tool for actually taking down a human sized animal.

Next time you decide to quote me, please get the FACTS of what you are quoting straight.

I remember reading a his articles a long while back. It's a shame that he was taken by an auto accident. =(

Choosing the handgun and accessories is the easy part. Learning to use it effectively and safely is the single most important step in being a handgun owner. Handguns are harder to master than either rifles or shotguns, and it requires practice and more practice. I think you are very wise to let your brother help you with that phase.

For CQB at home or as a Bug Out weapon as you designed this post to discuss, a handgun would not be the first choice for me. A better option might be a 12ga with a short barrel for the home and longer barrel for Bugging Out or in my thoughts hunting. The boom alone is crowd control, especially in a house. There is more functionality with optional barrels and rounds to cover both your requests.

For a handgun, any weapon, obviously first know what you can buy in your area, know the laws, definitely be schooled and don't skimp on the accessories.

Don't be led by other peoples like or prejudices. Handle a lot of pistols in every shape and caliber. Go to a range and shot as many as you can. Some people love Glock, others hate the feeling and the safety. Some people love/hate 9mm, others think .45 are over rated. Some will feel to top heavy, others perfect in your hand but not so much on your hip.

For a first time hand gun, a Ruger GP100 has been mentioned. Owned one, loved it. Great revolver in .357 caliber.

A lot of what you will should consider in home defense is directly related not so much to the caliber you use but the clarity of your voice and action. If you can, first call 911. Then let the vandal know the house is occupied, your armed and police are in route. Remember what they are wearing and look like for description to the police.

Ahh yes, forewarn your opposition by telling them "I have a gun".

A bad guy knows he's bad. He knows breaking in your door is against the law. Bad things happen in the breaking and entering trade. Getting shot from ambush by a homeowner's 12 gauge shotgun is one of those bad things. I see no compelling reason to give any advantage to a bad guy by telling him where I am or that I'm armed. That will become very clear shortly after the door fails.

True Russ, you don't want to give to much away, but you also want to present the right posture, that of a determined defense. A commanding voice and the racking of a slide is a tremendous deterrent.

dweste in the beginning of the post wanted info on a handgun for home defense, which most of us agree is not the best option. A 12ga is by far the wiser choice. But assuming that dweste has not had any physical or mental training in home defense or CQB, then calling 911 and telling the burglar that they need to leave is not out of the box of normal.

The reality is victims of home break ins, (aside from most people who read these forums), will be scared out of their minds if they hear a break in of their house and not going to lie in ambush quietly waiting for someone to come into their sight alignment to blast them away. I think most of us would prefer to walk in the room, say Hasta la vista and pull the trigger.

But the normal civilian is most likely going to unconsciously turn on a light, make a noise walking across a room or arguing with their family that someone is in the house, grab their defense weapon, rack that slide back hard or pump that foregrip with authority and defend their home.

Burglars will know rather quickly if someone is home or not, telling them you're armed is one more defense measure. Burglars are usually but not always looking for easy opportunities, not confrontation.

If were talking a rapist or abductor caught in the act...well I think we all know we'd shot first, comment second.

Off subject but, to validate I think what Russ is saying is true, Joe Horn thankfully wasn't charged for defending his neighbors house.

I read an interview of several burglars that were in jail serving time that they would rather face a cop then a homeowner with a gun. They know a cop has a whole set of conditions he has to meet before he can draw and fire his gun. A homeowner is not restricted nearly as much. Homeowners are more likely (at least in the criminals mind) to shoot the criminal then a cop.

So I disagree that it’s a bad idea to let the bad guy know you have a gun and offer up proof by working the action of a shotgun. If it can defuse the situation and get him to stop and run, you are better off.

I have never shot anyone with a firearm, I have no question I could if my life was in danger. But at the same time if I can convince the bad guy to run off and then let the cops deal with finding him it’s better then shooting him.


I don’t see letting him know that I’m aware he’s in my home, and I know it and have a gun and I called the cops as a bad thing to do. No normal person wants to kill another, even if it’s a criminal.

If I recall correctly, burglaries in Kennewick, GA (did I spell that correctly?) dropped like a rock when they passed a law requiring every household to have a gun...

My parents go to Florida every winter since 1991, my dad remembers when Florida passed a concealed carry law for Florida residents. The crime against Florida residents went down. But it went up against vacationing people. This was downplayed in the media according to what my dad told me, they didn’t want this info harming the flow of tourist dollars.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, driving a car with rental plates was assured a robbery/jacking/whatever...

Sure he was charged, with homicide.

Yes - "Z" plates - Florida (among other states - like NY) used plates starting with "Z" as rental cars (there was some law enforcement reasons they wanted it - don't ask me, probably pre-radio). These made rental cars stick out. The FIRST answer was to pass a law saying "rental cars don't have to start with Z"

Yeah, my bad. Horn was charged. The case was dropped by the Grand Jury.

Since you were quoting me, I feel it important to clarify what I believe is a misinterpretation on your part; that shot placement is a matter of luck and not practice.

Even though the statistics indicate the shooting under dures is more inaccurate than range shooting, the instructor emphasized that practicing simulating duress can improve performance. He said to have the weapon unloaded and have your wife scream in your ear and pull you by the hand/shirt to knock you off balance. He also said to try to backpedal over obstacles at the same time. Try to get front sight picture and squeeze off a "round". I've tried this and it's not easy.

Also, the statistic of 2 out of 10 can be further broken down when realizing that many, if not most of these documented shootings occur in darkness or semi-darkness. When the situation is in daylight with a single officer, the accuracy skyrockets to about 60%. But when it is multiple officers against the BG, the accuracy plummets to around 10%. This may be because multiple officer shootings often occur against a threatening perp with a long gun at some distance. See http://www.surefireinstitute.com/images/pdfs/Officer-Involved_Shooting_Study.pdf for the details.

Again, statistics are fraught with problems...think garbage in, garbage out, but it's all we've got to work with.

But my instructor clearly told us that practice, especially the right kind, will improve your shot placement under stress. Relying on luck would be insane.

I recently posted the blurb for Evan Marshalls book on stopping power as something people could look at in deciding what ammunition to chose. Someone said he was 'discredited'. I've only read his first book (there are now three) so don't remotely consider myself qualified to say which is correct. Therefore I'm posting (with permission) from Mr Marshalls site. There are more essays there from 'third parties' in the 'commentary' section.
As a pure layman a few things are noticeable in this debate. If, as is often suggested, Mr Marshall is being sponsored to favour a particular ammunition or is biased in favour of a particular calibre. Then he's not doing a very good job of favouring them. Different calibres and manufacturers all do well. The criticism I have read of him was lightweight and not backed by any evidence. After dismissing his findings, the writers then usually go on to recommend their favourite calibre based on anecdotal evidence.
BUT I'm in the UK and haven't seen a gun magazine in a decade. Maybe things have changed.
So here are his articles from his web site.
at http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_missing_piece.asp

[Copyrighted articles deleted by Admin. - please respect copyrights and link to articles. Do NOT republish articles on the forum without express permission from the copyright holder. Thanks.]

Mr Ritter
I appreciate what you are saying. But if you look at the Stopping Power site forum, you will see Evan Marshall giving me just that.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15591

The Sock

I'm a small guy (5'9" and 145 lbs) and have been carrying a glock model 33 (.357 sig) in my pants pocket for many years now. It breaks down into a few simple pieces for cleaning in 2 seconds. It's so easy to reassemble after a few times you can literally do it blindfolded. Glock's reputation for reliability is legendary. By one of the snake-type bore cleaners for simplicity and quickness. Good luck. Guns are lots of fun and good for peace of mind.

Sock,
The problem I have with M&S data is that they don't say "why" a particular bad guy stopped after one shot. A low tolerance of pain causing the bad guy to decide to quit and walk home, is much different than his motor functions ceasing and his blood pressure falling to zero.

One of those reasons for stopping is a function of the bullet and its placement, the other is a function of the bad guys state of mind. From what I've seen, M&S data does not take these reasons into account. This raw data isn't exposed. A stop is a stop, reasons are irrelevant. That's my only issue with M&S. Reasons why are relevant.

Russ
Actually I don't see why the reason is relevant. If they stopped attacking you who cares why? BUT as I say; I'm arguing from memory of the first book. Best to discuss it on the stopping power web site with people who've seen the latest books, not with me.
The Sock

Maybe true, but the subject of M&S is the stopping power of certain calibers. Why a person stopped should mean a great deal to the study in order to keep the playing field level. He may have stopped for a reason totally independent of what caliber he was hit with.

Person "A" being stopped with a .22 LR hit to the arm because he has a low pain threshold counts the same as Person "B" who takes a .45 ACP to the brain stem is a bean counter approach. They both stopped after one shot, same-same -- not quite.

Consider that a .22 to the brain stem would have stopped either "A" or "B". .45 to the arm may not have stopped "B", let's say it didn't ("B" has a high pain threshold or is on drugs). So what can be gleaned from those results? Obviously a .22 has more stopping power than a .45ACP. Does that make sense? That is why, "why did he stop?" is relevant.

I would prefer a caliber and shot placement that didn't require a weak mindset on the bad guy's part to work.

$.02 -- I don't get paid by a gun rag to make this stuff up.

I'd add two points:
1) Someone earlier said "NEVER say you shot to kill in court...". I never read anything in this thread where someone suggested they might do that. We don;t expect people to go jumping up and down in court shouting "kill! kill! kill!", however, if a person is considering a firearm for self defense, let's be honest about what a firearm is for and what it can do.... let's not be squeamish.

2) I think it's good to argue the stopping power of certain calibers but, in the end, generally speaking, the larger caliber bullets will accomplish the mission most effectively. To say there are exceptions is one thing, but again when more stopping power is desired, a large caliber is selected. There is too much empirical evidence provided by way too many law enforcement agencies to effectively argue otherwise.

No offense Stretch, but I've already quoted you yourself saying

"A handgun for self-defense is meant to kill"

"For years (24 now) I've been taught the purpose is to "stop the threat". As a firearms and use of force instructor, that is the wording I must use when teaching. It's politically correct BS, of course"

And I pointed out when the compensation lawyer is in court he'll be saying:

"you never intended to disarm this poor widows husband, you didn't want to hold him at gun point till the police arrived. If he was wounded and no longer a threat, you'd keep shooting. We know this because you wrote yourself that you intended to kill".

The Sock

No Sock, I think you're missing my point. Courtroom matters are another issue. I addressed those too - briefly.

The point is, know what a firearm is designed for and what it can do. Don't mix its purpose and deadly potential with flowery praise and dreamy, whimsical politi-speech. Don't assume that it will kill everything its projectile hits, but do assume that it is designed to do precisely that. Worrying about the lawyers is something we shouldn;t do IF we know what is right, just, and legal. I know, I deal daily with them and their graspings.

Many policeman have been killed, it is theorized, by the fear of the courtroom and liability consequences. It causes doubt and hesitation. When deadly force is required, it is authorized. When it is authorized, death is expected - hence the term "deadly force". Dress it up as we may, the cold hard truth remains.

If I may be so bold: The truth is not dependant on belief.

This is true, Sock, but it is supposition that because I said a firearm is a deadly weapon, that it kills, that I would keep shooting at a person that was incapacitated. Put in that light, you're exactly right. Put in the light in which I was speaking, then....you wouldn;t be right.

In every case, a bad guy's widow, children, etc will be brought in when it suits them. It sure beats the good guy's widow being in those shoes though, now doesn't it?

Please re-read the posts and keep in check any speculative scenarios.

I stand by the meaning of deadly weapon. Its sole purpose is to kill. Know it and know where you stand before using it. Save your life and the lives of other innocent persons and worry about the lawyers later. If your life, your very existence, your very right to protect and provide for your family, is threatened, then defend it, with every and any means possible.

I believe this is true also. However, I'm more of the opinion that .22 has "stopping power A", .32 has stopping power B, .380 has stopping power C, and 9mm, .40s&w, 357sig, 10mm, and 45acp have stopping power D+/-. Yes, there is some difference in their raw stopping powers, but it's relatively small, and once you've hit this category other factors like controllability and shot placement begin to dominate over raw stopping power.

Shoot the most powerful that you can easily control, but don't shoot more powerful than you can easily control. Controlled shot placement trumps raw power, not the other way around.

Just my opinion, of course.

No one could reasonably argue against that point, and I surely wouldn;t.

Yup. I hit with a .22 is a lot better than a miss with a .44 mag...

The old rule is: Don't worry about being fast, worry about making sure that your 1st shot hits the mark!

Decide Fast, Draw Fast, Present Fast, Give Commands Fast, Reload Fast ..... Shoot Slow (to be accurate).

Mike

Smooth is fast still rings true.

Here, here! This is one point where I think I disagree with Ayoob. (It's just a personal preference, as he knows worlds more than I do about law and self defense.) It worked for me NOT to warn the perp. He ended up in cuffs.

We on this board make these assumptions that the perp will behave like a "good little burglar", or that he's not coming in with four of his armed friends. Do you really want to yell out to four drug-hyped nuts that you have a gun and you're right down the hallway? They may not behave rationally. Do you want to try to gun down five armed assailants? You've got more balls than me.

Nope, I want to make grand whoosing sounds, followed by the sound of melons hitting the ground. Otherwise silence in the darkness.

Announcing yourself is tactically a bad decision, but it might be what lets you sleep at night afterwards. I'm not going to kill anyone over a TV. I'll give someone every chance to run away - it's only when they move towards me or mine that causes me enough concern to be willing to kill them.
I acknowledge that this places me in greater danger. It's obviously a decision everyone has to make on their own according to what they can do and live with afterwards.

Understandable, but at what point do you conclude an intruder is no longer a threat? I prefer to be proactive in defense rather than reactive; it gives me more options and a greater chance of survival.

Better to err on the conservative side, and just assume that if someone has broken into your home, it is with the intent of doing you and yours great harm. You are certain, then, not to be unfavorably surprised, and still remain justified in your actions.

Nonetheless, I agree that the best time to warn an intruder you are armed is when the sear lets go.

It's a good question. How far away does a person have to run to no longer be a threat? Outside? Down the street? Just out of sight? At what point are you sure that the bad guy isn't just doubling around the back side to come at you again?
I still have enough faith in my police to call them. I'll put down my weapon when they are knocking on the door.

Legally, I believe we can consider them a threat until they leave the house, so long as they disengage any attack posture. If they persist with the confrontation but are merely driven outside, then the threat remains imminent, and justifiable defense is warranted. Doubling back may only lead them down another path of doom. If they don't get the message on the first volley, they surely will the second one! Give me a chance to reload/rearm, and I will likely get something bigger and more powerful, as well as take up a more advantageous position from which to deliver.

It's been my experience that the police are not there to protect and defend, unless you happen to live next door to a police station. Usually they are there to secure the crime scene and help clean up the mess after the fact. I have no problem with relaxing my attack posture when properly identified officers show up at my home in response to being summoned.