My bugout "route" has many aternatives but encountering feral and farm dogs is a common factor. I have not thought through how to deal with dog encounters. I am especially concerned with encountering a pack of dogs.

I guess I could start with "nice doggie, here's a treat."

What do you think?

That's a good start but IMO, it would be wise to have some mace/pepper spray and/or a hiking staff to back up the first effort to avoid dog problems.

That's a tricky situation. Normally I'd suggest your "doggy treat" be made of fast moving lead. However in a bug-out situation shooting a farmer's dog, even if it's attacking you, could lead to much more severe retailiation from said farmer than under normal circumstances.

Maybe a can of "bear spray"? The downside of any Mace/pepper spray is the risk of it hitting you, too.

How about a speartip on your walking stick? It'd probably quietly work against one dog but it seems most farmers/ranchers have more than one dog.

One of those pistol crossbows?

This is a very good question.

-Blast

I always have my walking / wading staff, but multiple dogs would be a serious problem.

High-powered air or CO2 gun? Throwing knives? Some kind of powder that can be thrown?

I cannot quite figure this out yet.

How about when Mr. Canid is fastened to your arm or leg: best practices to persuade him to make a different choice?

I'll stick with a firearm as dog defense.

Pepperspray has several different methods of discharge: stream, spray or fog. Each has it's own benefits. I carry the kind that discharges in a stream, because I'm outside at work, and don't want to have to worry about "overspray" when I use it on one animal. Spray offers a shotgun approach, with less need for precise aim and more chance of overspray, while fog is good for clearing a crowd, as long as you check the wind first. Most times the dog only needs to get a little whiff of the stuff for them to decide that you don't smell good enough to eat. Don't limit your other options.

D'oh! A wet cat.

-Blast

Are you talking about one dog or a pack of dogs?

Also, feral dogs are very different than farm dogs, which are used to people and generally friendly. Feral dogs that are unafraid of people are the worst.

Can you be a little more specific about what you're imagining?

Loosely speaking, one dog is manageable. A pack of dogs is bad news. Run for your life and climb a tree, get in a car, etc. I don't know anyone who could control something like that. I honestly don't see how a firearm is going to help, unless you are far away and have a machine gun...

A friend worked one summer as a relief postal carrier, was issued pepper spray for dog defense, used it, was bitten anyway. Wisdom of older, unperforated carrier: ' you gotta spray 'em before they decide to bite ya-once they've made the commitment, spray won't stop them." Friend used 5 cans of spray in the next week, spraying every visible canine. Thereafter, dogs on his route ran squalling whenever he appeared on the street. Dogs are pretty tough to discourage, and fairly tough to kill. Feral dogs were a problem in the Southern Adirondacks, due to summer visitors acquiring a pup for the vacation, and abandoning the pup upon leaving. Packs chased deer and attacked deer hunters. Deer rifles are pretty effective, but number 4 buckshotwas regarded as the best solution to packs. Alternative solution to dog aggression: get your own dog-a big dog can chase them off, a small dog can distract them while you load up. This is the "Mexican sacrificial arm knife defense" applied to dogs. Or you could get a big cat-I'm talkin' one mean pussy....

In a bug out situation a Ruger 22 pistol or a 10-22 rifle would be the best if you ran across a pack of dogs. But for a single dog, a can of pepper spray.


I don’t know of a situation where you would run into a pack of dogs in this area. Is this even a remote possibility where you live?

I go out hunting Woodchucks by myself in the country quite often. I have only ever seen one dog at a time. I did have a mangy looking dog come at me once while hunting, it got shot with a 22-250, that ended that situation quick.


How often have any of you ran into a pack of wild dogs? And what part of the country did this happen in?

Feral dogs in packs hunt a lot like wolves...but I don't think feral dog packs encountering a person attack them because they think they're prey (unless you're gimp or a child). If the pack thinks you're a threat to their hierarchy of dominance, the alpha is going to try and take you down before you take him down. Most agression in canines come from a lack of dominance or a lack of structured dominance. If you show the dog who's boss with authority...then you're the boss. This is a common technique for making even the smallest dogs behave in your home. You make yourself the alpha and the dog behaves because you're the boss.

There was an interesting program a while ago (I think it was on Nova) about what would happen if people just dissappeared one day and they speculated that any dog that could get out of it's house, and was big enough to hunt (and not be killed by the bigger dominant dogs) would become feral and group themselves into packs regardless of breed in a very rapid amount of time. I find it fascinating how dogs can do this even if they're not raised in the wild. It's the same when dogs get picked up in packs of Coyotes. Half breed Coyotes can be really dangerous.

Now dogs which have been trained to fight or guard or have been raised a certain way might not work that way, I'm not sure. I do know that a dog raised in a normal home all it's life can turn into a savage predator in a fairly short period of time when it's surroundings change like going feral or being mistreated so who knows.

That's all good but I think the advice about a dog not stopping once it's committed is bang on. I've heard stories of attacking dogs having to be killed before they'd leg go of an arm or a leg. I'd say be prepared for a worst case scenario. I was told once that if the dog is going to get you, feet it your arm so it won't bite you somewhere vital (like the groin or neck) then fight with everything you've got...even if that means killing.

Personally I wouldn't want things to get that far...especially if you're bugging out. Who needs a shredded up arm when you're not in a position to go to the hospital? That in mind I'd think the pepper spray would be the best deterent as long as you're prepared for a fight in case it doesn't work. Having the other hand on a big stick, big knife, or even a big rock wouldn't be a bad idea.

In central California, dog attacks on livestock are a growing problem. I also have experienced very aggressive farm and ranch dogs. I remember such encounters as a paperboy that ended by my sacrificing a few papers to be chewed up after having my bicycle bags, and one on occasion my pant cuff, being chewed.

I don't want it to be a problem for me, but I am thinking through likely threats and how to deal with them. Especially if I had to go cross-county in a bug out scenario, I would expect a dog encounter or two as I went through "their" territory.

An internet search provided the same kind of ideas already mentioned in this thread and links to various products:

defense against dog attack:
http://www.wolfweb.com.au/acd/defenceagainstdogs.htm
http://www.laneselfdefense.com/blog/?p=13
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/living/family/dogtalk/s_432979.html
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/Po...Dog-Attack.aspx
http://www.articlealley.com/article_548717_54.html


dog defense spray
http://www.guardian-self-defense.com/dogrepellent.htm
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/WILDFIRE.htm

dog chaser electronic repeller
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/dogchaser.htm

stun baton / gun
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/telescopicstunbaton.htm
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/doubletroublestungun.htm

stun alarm flashlight
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/stunflashlights.htm

mace peper gel
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/peppergel.htm

I am still trying to sort this out and welcome your thoughts.

Treats are a good start. A hiking staff can be very handy also. Just keep it between you and the dog. They have a hard time with this simple obstacle. Also, most dogs are "bluffing" and are terrified of loud cracking noises, fireworks, gunshots. BTW, urban/suburban dogs would probably be much more of a hassle. I find country and farm dogs to be much more balanced and less aggressive. If you're carrying a shotgun or pistol, great. If not, bearspray, maybe some fireworks, and an easily accessible fixed blade knife. But again, IIRC the only accounts I read of "packs" of dogs going after humans happens in cities.

Anybody know how really loud whistles work? It's something most of us carry daily.

Many years ago I read something somewhere about an attacking dog. Feed it your weak forarm, then put your strong forarm behind its head, and snap your weak forarm away from you at the same time you snap the stong one toward you. Supposed to break the dogs neck. Trust me, I have not tried this one, and hope you don't have to either...

I wouldn't feed them. They'll associate you with food and even if they aren't a threat, they'll probably be a nuisance.

Second the pepper spray idea, pick out the lead dog and let'em have it.

Always have a back up plan though.

Was this in that old Time-Life magazine, Popular Ways to Die Painfully and Slowly?

During my bug out I would like to deal with the situation quietly, quickly, and without leaving any dogs permanently damaged - temporary problems totally acceptable.

Once I am settled in my retreat, well, as difficult as it may for me to consider, what does dog taste like?

worked with some Filipino docs once. Their take was that dog tasted a little gamy, okay with enough garlic. They suggested that if you eat dog, you should stay away from dogs for a while, cuz the survivors smell it on your breath and take it poorly.

Hmmm, the dog I ate in China was some of the best meat I've ever had. It tasted like high-quality lamb to me. It did have a strong flavor, which I like in meat.

-Blast

I don't know what farm dogs you've been around, but every damned one in Missouri would chase me on my bike for blocks. It got to the point where it was either A) bring my rifle, or B) stop riding in the countryside.

Firecrackers maybe, if you can get them lit and exploded soon enough. Otherwise, I'd second the shotgun (or maybe a .22 in semiauto) methods.

"...chase me on my bike for blocks..."

When I was still working, I used to ride a bike for exercise (and in order to pass the annual pedal and puke test). Dogs started chasing me, so I put some clips on top of my handlebars and clipped an old wooden baton in them. Rolled more than one yapping nipping canine with it. Of course, in CA at least, a police baton in possion of a non-LEO is a felony. But an aluminum (or wood) baseball bat, that is a horse of another color. And the dog still rolls...

I was a member of the K-9 Unit at work for 4 years. Our dogs were trained to recognize hand signals. This was done because if we were wearing gas masks due to deploying chemical agents we could still give commands to the dogs. The mace/pepper spray we used did not affect the dogs, and it was much stronger then the stuff you buy off the shelf. Granted, we were not spraying the dogs directly but were using gas in confined areas. I would not use a spray for dogs.

For one dog and you don't have a gun: 1st, Wrap your weak arm with anything available, i.e. jacket, sweater. 2nd, Hold your arm out and feed it to the dog. with his mouth ocupied get him off his feet so he can't thrash/rip your arm as much. 3rd, Disable the dog by what ever means you have, punching, taking out eyes etc. Sounds brutal but if a dog is looking to attack it is best for you to control the attack as much as possible. Mind you it is best to avoid the attack if possible but if there is no option...

For more then one dog...better get a gun.

"... Disable the dog by what ever means you have, punching..."

I agree with you. But I once did hand to hand battle to the death with a wild male siamese cat (pay attention here Blast) at about oh dark thirty, in the kitchen of my former home. I lived, the cat may have died later, but I am not sure. Despite my best efforts, I could not even knock that sucker out. I finally gave up, bleeding from numerous deep scratches and punctuers, kneeling in a puddle of blood (mine) and cat pee. Cat ran away. Critters are tough!!!

So,in extremis, dog firmly attached to me against my will, with others waitng for an opening to join the party, what specifically should I do to stand a fighting chance of survival with each of the following:

1. A Hiking staff

2. Fixed blade knife

3. Stun weapon

4. Pistol

5. Dog spray

Like I said it is best to avoid the attack, no one gets hurt, but if you have no choice then it is best to take away the dogs best attack which is the thrashing/ripping that do the most damage. I for one would not want to fight a dog hand to hand but that is the way we were trained due to the fact that we had to avoid having our dog become a victim of that counter to our attack.

Things to keep in mind about dogs:

1. They are a little stronger than us, pound for pound.

2. The end with the teeth can do a lot of damage to flesh and bone, especially with breeds with a triangular shaped jaw with strong muscle attachments. (Pit Bull Terriers get this from the terrier part; all terriers have strong bites out of proportion to their size.) Keep in mind that if you present a dog your hand wrapped in a jacket or shirt you are still very likely to have blood drawn and have serious damage to bones, nerves and tendons. I've seen a small fifty to fifty-five pound Malanois female (lol, it censored the female dog word) bite completely through a police training sleeve and bloody the volunteer during training. Your shirt and jacket aren't nearly that strong, and that dog didn't have a particularly strong bite.

3. They lead with their face. Probably not the advantage you'd think, since in many breeds, that means the head/face are pretty well protected. Also, see, number 2 above. Teeth hurt. However, this also means when you're dealing with just one dog, a longish stick, like a hiking staff, can be very effective. Rather than swinging the stick, particularly if you're untrained in using long sticks as weapons, use it in a spear-like manner (without leaning into it and losing your balance) to hold the dog at bay. Getting your back to something will help prevent the dog from circling. Aiming that little rubber foot for its mouth is a plus if you can jam it in its mouth forcibly. You don't want to get into a tug-o-war, though, so present point first.

4. They take down their prey like most predators, with their body weight. Look up some videos of police dog training on Youtube. You'll notice the same takedown technique on all of them: Grab an extremity then swing the whole body on a pivot and whip the victim to the ground. Un-trained dogs intent on murder will also do this to get you down to their level. Dogs less intent on murder may go for other body parts, so protect all your dangly bits.

5. Dogs have four feet. This is pretty self evident. It's also their base of power for torquing their bodies to inflict more damage with their teeth. If you can take their legs out of the equation, you can reduce the damage they inflict. MP dog handlers with over aggressive dogs frequently just picked the dogs up off the ground and slammed them into their van before loading them up. Yeah, these guys were poor handlers in my opinion, but it's good to remember that humans have the height and mass advantage and if a dog can be picked up off its feet or be wrapped up if wrestling with it, it can be deprived of a significant portion of its ability to do damage.

6. Dogs are tough. Physically and mentally. No offense intended to those advocating .22s, but if the dog can be dissuaded by a .22, then it probably wasn't a valid threat to begin with. You should generally make ammunition choices for stopping a dog in the same light you would for facing a large, drug-crazed human male. Only a CNS shot will immediately break off an attack. If you're not the one being attacked, you can probably easily close to point blank range and finish the dog. If you're on the receiving end of the attack, good luck with that. Knives are generally worse than a gun.

7. Dogs have sensitive noses. Pepper spray can be effective, especially if the dog hasn't committed to the attack yet. They're probably the best deterrent, provided prevailing winds permit their safe use. They can be less than effective at causing a dog to break off an attack.

8. Dogs have pretty decently-sized brains. Blunt force trauma to the head can rattle their cages, and backed by enough strength can outright kill a dog on the charge. I know of at least one police dog killed by a construction worker with a length of heavy PVC pipe. The guy was exceptionally strong.

9. Dogs can't wrestle for beans. Their legs are inflexible. If you get taken down, try to wrap its rear legs with yours and control its head. Flip on your back and lock it down. Now that you've got it, don't ask me what to do with it. You might try a carotid or tracheal choke on it, but depending on the breed and the strength of its neck, that may be pointless.

10. Dogs in packs are exceedingly dangerous. Even a few neighborhood dogs who are roaming around unattended can be dangerous, when pack instinct sets in. If you get chosen as prey for a pack of dogs, get your back to something, and hope you have some means of keeping them off you.

Given all of the above, I'd suggest the following:

1. Pepper spray.
2. If appropriate, a hiking staff. Remember, poke, don't swing it.
3. If you're carrying a firearm, it should be the same one you'd use for defense against humans.
4. Don't run.
5. If taken by surprise, wrap the dog up and control at least two of its legs (rear) and its head.
6. Expect to get bitten, and expect it to hurt. Take control of the dog anyway. Only the largest breeds stand a chance to take a healthy adult male in a wrestling contest. You can't really train for this one. It's like telling someone to mentally prepare to be cut if they get in a knife fight. Prior experience handling things that bite or being subjected to intense pain in difficult situations helps... but do you really want to get that kind of experience on purpose?

I forgot that I am highly likely to have on a backpack. I think if I was worried about a dog attack, and I had time, I would take the pack off and try to use it as a shield.

But what then? How do I deal with a dog that has, thankfully, grabbed my back instead of me? How do you persuade a dog to go away? How can you disable a dog so it loses interest in continuing an attack? And if you need to kill it ...?

This thread is getting a bit morbid for me, but if I cannot bug in and have to bug out I want to give this serious thought. I am already thinking about its impact on my BOB gear list.

Thanks.

Pray?

1. If the dog is already on you and you have a hiking staff, you've failed to employ it effectively. Assuming you have nothing else available and haven't been taken to the ground, you could try putting out an eye as suggested by one of the articles linked earlier. Let's say the dog has one hand, as that frequently happens. It's going to lower its butt and try to drag you around. Get your feet set so you can't be dragged, then reach in with the other hand and scoop out an eye. Then the other one if it doesn't let go. As it lets go (assuming it does), kick it in the ribs, hard, and yell at it (you're probably already yelling lol). Oh, but you have to drop the staff to do that, and you still have more dogs waiting to get you. You could try a bluff rush at them and scoop up your staff. It may delay the next attack enough to let you get the staff back . . .or it may not. That may not have been the leader. It may have been the sucker they sent in to test you out or distract you. Packs of coyotes have used similar tactics to take out livestock guard dogs.

2. You're screwed. A fixed blade knife is fairly inadequate against multiple dogs, or even one determined dog. Each one has forty-two knives. Each one of those knives will be driven by the full weight of its charging body. Your knife has to find well-protected vital bits to kill one, and dogs have been known to fight and continue to do serious damage to people with what would otherwise be fatal knife wounds. For that matter, knives don't cause much trauma. If your knife has a pointy or hard bit on the butt of the handle, you can try hammering the dog that has you on the crown of the head repeatedly. It'd probably be a bit more effective than stabbing.

3. I don't really have an opinion on stun weapons. I've personally been shocked by the hand held arcing type and taken them off the person doing the shocking, but that was in the early 90s, so maybe they've improved. If you're talking Taser technology, then you've basically got a one shot weapon. Eventually it'll run out of current. At best, you can take one dog out for a bit with a taser, but you're out of luck with the rest of the pack.

4. Try not to shoot whatever dangly bit of yours the dog has, and put one (or more) in its head at contact range. Position yourself with your back to something, and proceed to shoot the other dogs. Non-lethal shots will either cause a dog to flee or enrage it. So, I suggest shooting one at a time until it's fled or dead, while keeping an eye on the others.

5. Dog spray may be seen as a goodwill gesture. After all, no dog likes fleas and ticks. :^) Oh, you meant the other type of dog spray! It may or may not make the dog chewing on you already let go. It's definitely worth a shot, though. If you can get to a standoff situation, it may be effective in deterring the pack members that aren't fully committed to an attack, so I'd say apply liberally in that case.

I should put a disclaimer here: Everything I've said in this thread is a result of personal experience, including being attacked a few times by dogs. It should not be construed as professional advice, just food for thought. Do your research, and make sound decisions NOT based on something you read on a message board. Should go without saying, but I don't want to misrepresent myself here. =)

"...Malanois..."

Ah, the devil dog. The CHP loves them. I know of one male that flattened a tire on a 12 passenger van with one bite. They can hurt you. A lot...

I'd say that using anything that doesn't have one of your body parts under it as a shield is a good call. =)



Have you considered your footwear in this equation? Some steel toed boots can do a lot do dissuade the under-committed type of dog who's just trying to run you off. Dog ribs are about as sensitive as yours or mine. So can yelling basic commands, like "STOP!" "SIT!" and "DOWN!" as if you're the owner.



Think about what you'll be carrying, and who you will be traveling with. Your hands should be free and your arms should have good freedom of movement. If you're traveling with a wife or child, then you need to factor them into the equation, as well. Most importantly, you need to train them not to run, which makes them a target.

A can of bear spray on a hip or pack strap is probably a good call. It's legal most anywhere, and if you practice, you can hit a target without unholstering it. Most manufacturers will provide practice cartridges for you to safely practice with. A preemptive strike with pepper spray is a heck of a lot safer for the animal and your conscience should you wonder later if it was necessary.

My personal preference would be pepper spray backed up by a large bore handgun, preferably a .45 auto, loaded with good defensive ammo.

Pepper spray or a gun, the gun being the safer bet as even if it’s attacking and could overcome the spray, it’s a lot harder to overcome several bullets or shotgun round.


A shotgun would be great but I think a 22 (10 shot Ruger) will work with a Dog. I know a 22-250 works.

What impressed me is that this female was about half the size of the rest of our dogs. I never volunteered to help our trainers with those beasts. She was very well-mannered, but the patrol/attack dogs were somewhat psychotic.

Would you use a .22LR as your primary defense against a human attacker?

Ah, a farm dog might chase you but a pack of feral dogs would eat you. So, I speak in relative terms. I don't generally worry about farm dogs. However, wild dogs, coys, and abandoned pets are another thing entirely.

Comparing a .22 to a .22-250 is apples to nukes...

I would feel very comfortable with a 10-22 with a 25-round clip or even a Mark 2 with 10 rounds.

I know everyone thinks they are great shots, but I am fairly good at shooting, I do a lot of it. I feel 10 22-rounds would stop a dog. The one time I did shoot a dog that came at me, I got it on the first (and only shot) in the head with a 22-250 fired from my hip as I was walking back to my van after woodchuck hunting. I was walking along a railroad track (magazine on the gun loaded with the bolt open) and the dog broke through the brush 20 feet away and growled and started for me, I stopped and backed away slow. It kept coming. I worked the bolt and fired from the hip.

I think I could stop a person with a 22 that broke into my home.

My point with the 22-250 was not the power, it is about bullet placement. I feel very confident of my bullet placement ability.


I know people that upon occasion take a deer down with a 22 lr by shooting it in the head (Not me as I don’t hunt deer.)
Don't underestimate a 22 because it looks small.

I work at my friends gun shop part time am around a lot of gun people.

Ah, to each his own, I suppose. I've seen too many dogs ignore .22s to trust one to stop a dog that's in full on attack mode. I've seen them break off and run when shot with heavier calibers.

I suppose could stop a person in my house with a .22 rifle... with a butt stroke to the noggin.

While my mind is reeling as I re-consider for the thousandth time what survival firearms to get, please continue on tactics and strategy for the one dog versus pack of dog scenario.

Then consider addressing another question: Suppose a dog or pack of dogs attacks and you disable it, or some or all of them, by expending much of your bear spray, or whacking them in the head, or kicking them, or whatever - do you just exit the area and hope they do not track you down and cause you to expend more resources hoping to fend them off again?

Anyone ever tell you you're a bit of a pessimist? j/k =)

I actually read an account of someone using bear spray to fend off a bear while on an extended trip in bear country. They wondered what they'd do with the next bear, as they only brought one can with them!

That's pretty good food for thought...

The stuff's pretty bulky, if you have the bear cans, so how many people carry a second can?

In my opinion, there are too many variables to really address these scenarios. If you've made a pack of dogs or an individual dog retreat, there's a high chance you won't be confronted again. However...dogs can be vindictive and determined too. In my opinion, if you're confronted by a pack of feral dogs, the best solution to the problem is to kill all of them.

That opens all kinds of cans of worms, though. In a bug out situation: Where's the owner? Will they be armed and vengeful? Are you in a populated area? Where are your bullets going? These are often fast moving targets and your adrenaline may seriously impact your marksmanship. How many hours have you put in with your carry gun? Can you shoot it well under stress?

Avoidance is important. You're ultimately better off avoiding problems if possible. It'd be good to review some quality material on dog behavior, both solitary and pack, and try to absorb all of it that you can.

Oh, I forgot when talking about hiking sticks earlier: I always carry a five foot hickory hiking staff when trail walking. When I pass a person walking their dog, I hold the staff close in to my body, so it doesn't appear threatening to the dog I'm sharing the trail with. I also greet everyone I pass with a cheerful smile and "Hello," so that I don't look like the only nut in the woods with a big weapon-y thing in my hands. (The primary reason I have a staff is because it's useful, both for going down and up hills and for preventing falls on the uneven ground of the trails. It still looks threatening to dogs and to a lot of people who don't use a staff.) I think both of these things prevent a lot of potential problems.

I honestly don't think you have much chance if a pack of dogs decides to attack you. The damage of one trained dog can be devastating. And military trainers will tell you that you can empty a clip into a trained dog and it still won't let go. Yes, it will die eventually, but I certainly wouldn't want to imagine what shape you'd be in (or in how many pieces).

I don't even want to think about a pack of feral dogs. The trick is getting them not to attack you in the first place. And that's quite the trick. Pepper spray has been suggested, but it's also been noted to provoke attacks (at least with bears).

My strategy would be to avoid dog packs at all costs. Once they mean business, you arms will quickly become useless. I'd slowly walk away, avoiding eye contact, and find a safe perch. Of the many tactics discussed here, one that's been omitted as far as I can tell is punching a dog as hard as you can in the nose. That's what my trainer told me to do to establish dominance over a very alpha dog the first (and only) time she snapped at me. (However, do this at your own risk.)

Wow, this is one morbid thread, as someone mentioned above...

I'll share my dog stories, few as they are...

I've peppered two charging dogs in my life: A lab and a APBT mix. The spray deterred both attacks. When talking to my pit bull owner friends, they said I was very lucky with the pit because they said "Nothing stops a game pit unless you shoot it."

Talked to one pit owner who got bit by his own dog. He said it was the scariest thing that's happened to him as he felt his hand start to come apart in her mouth. He went for her eyes and gave stern commands. She let go, but not until some pretty bad trauma occurred.

My take...bear spray first liberally with your non-dominant hand, then glock 'em to death as they're trying to see you out of their smarting eyes.


Oh yes, and pray pray pray.

P.S. does anyone know if a feral dog pack ratchets UP the attack if they start losing members or if they split?

Well, I guess my bug out stuff just got heavier and more expensive. The bear spray was a candidate anyway because I was acquiring some for some bear country hiking and camping. But a decent hand gun, with all that goes with it, had been far down my list. And steel-toed boots were not on my list at all; I will consider them.

The .22 is definitely on the light side. I'm sure 10 rounds would kill the dog eventually, assuming one could hit an attacking dog 10 times. However, an eventual kill is insufficient - a dog can have you on your back in the time it takes to fire half that amount. What is called for is the immediate, permanent cessation of hostile action within the minimum amount of time possible. Remember, as with a human, you may only get one shot to bet your life on. I think something in the 9mm/.357 category is the prudent minimum for man or beast.

FWIW, a drill we used in the military to simulate defending oneself against a dog went like this: take a two-liter soda bottle and attach it to 50' of 550 cord. While facing in a safe direction (and observing all applicable firearms safety rules) stand with the cord ran between your legs on the ground. Now have a buddy pull the cord, dragging the bottle toward you as quickly as possible, and try to engage it. The bottle roughly approximates a dog's vitals, and the movement closely approximates that of a real dog. We would do this drill occasionally with rifle, shotgun, and pistol, and it was surprisingly difficult.

I'll offer my ¢, bear spray at range. Pre-emptively. Get the bugger before he decides he wants to attack. If its a pack, (in addition to praying and loading your pants ;)) try to determine the alpha and get it. If it doesn't want to attack, the others hopefully won't either. Hiking staff-as others suggetsed use as a spear. Any "swinging" attacks should be short arc, much akin to a stick check in hockey. (Not a slap shot or golf swing). For a firearm I would suggest a taurus judge in .410 caliber. I believe it is five shot revolver, might be six. Design is forgiving of exposure of the elements, has no safety to fumble when panicing/adrenalized. Load the first two chambers with .410 shot the remaining with .45 long colt. With the first two rounds you can dispatch snakes and have a better chance of hitting a charging dog, or hitting mutliple dogs at range. The .45 LC is a cowboy round, slightly underpowered compared to .45 acp, but more than enough to do the job IMHO. Consider getting two soccer shin guards and attaching then to your weak side forearm. Consider the placement, relative to the angle of attack. You want them top and bottom of the bite angle.
BobS, I have seen feral dog packs right here in Tampa, Florida. Had them pin some female employees in their cars. Yelling didn't bidge them. A can of dented peas to the ribs (while standing safely on the loading dock) eventually did.

-Bill Liptak

Y'all think inside the box too much.

Most dogs are stronger than us humans, pound for pound, but lack the leverage and dexterity we have. The best approach I've found for subduing individual dogs without a weapon is to grapple them to the ground, get your weight on them, and stay on top. Yes, you will get bit, you are going to anyways, but by using your weight and dexterity you will gain an advantage that will soon have him succombed. All dogs have a weak spot, it is the dimple between their neck and their collarbone. There is an unprotected nerve plexus there, similar to our bracchial plexus. If you apply pressure in that dimple area with fingers, elbow, a stick, whatever, it causes them unbearable pain, more perhaps than even going for the eyes. If you don't get the dogs down and pinned then they will bite and flail and do a lot more damage.

For packs of dogs, I've found fire to be another suitable deterrent. A can of WD-40 and a bic will cast one heck of a nice flame in a broad cone out to as much as 15 feet. Dog fur burns pretty easily, and if he catches on fire, he's going to be distracted enough to not want to continue the fight much. Once they realize they are burning, they generally take off running. Bears don't seem to like fire that much either.

Ben, who grew up as a pyromaniac.

Okay, Vulcan dog disabling grip and improvised flamethrower added to the list.

The importance of figuring out the alpha dog has been mentioned. Why is that important, how do you figure out which is the alpha, and having figured it out what do you do with that information?

Thanks.

Speaking from experience, you are lucky to still be alive OBG.

-Blast

"...pin some female employees in their cars..."

You would see a lot of flat doggies if they had me pinned in a vehicle with the keys in it...

"...Why is that important..."

I haven't had a dog since my last one caught one car too many when I was a kid. But I suspect that in packs, the alpha is the leader, the rest are followers. Take away the leader and they are basically headless. Unless of course there is an alpha wannabe waiting in the wings. I'm gonna assume that the alpha would be leading the pack, but you know how things often go when one assumes. If a solo dog, I suspect that an alpha would be the one to actually attack, others more bluff. Help me out here dog owners...

How about including a bad Elvis impersonation? My version of Jailhouse Rock might even scare off a pack of hyenas.

(And starting to play air guitar guarantees me a seat on the subway. Sometimes I even get the whole car to myself.)

"...you are lucky to still be alive OBG..."

Don't I know it! He really got one of my knees, had a claw in deep the whole time he/we were thrashing around on the floor. Luckily no infection, but I walked with a painfull limp for 'bout a week...

The reason for targeting the alpha is simple. He is the top dog, the strongest and most capable of the lot. Its as if somebody walked into a dojo and beat the crap out of the senei. There is possibility that the students will still attack, as might the dogs. But there is also the distinct possibility that the students will give up, seeing their sensei beat who is better and more skilled than all of them. Same logic follows with the dogs.
That being said and all things equal, the toughest dog, even if the others continue their attack, would be the prime target. Get him outta the picture fast.

-Bill Liptak

While the group is poised to respond to the alpha dog questions, let's put another question in the hopper.

I have survived a dog attack. The critters are dispersed and dispatched as the situation and my opportunities allow. But I have a painful dog bite that includes a fairly deep laceration my forearm and another to my ankle, neither of which seems to have opened an artery.

I am not likely to find any medical care other than self-help. What first aid stuff do I want to have in my kit to deal with those wounds? What should I do?

Thanks.

Hope and pray that the dog was't rabid! That could be a serious concern.

I would imagine antibiotics would come into play for the wounds.

"...I am not likely to find any medical care other than self-help..."

That could be tricky, depending on the location of the bite. My daughter and her husband are both letter carriers for the P.O. He got a pretty bad bite last year, right on the lower curve of his butt. Really hard plact to work on yourself.

As for FAK stuff, disinfectant (lots of it) and bandaging. How much would depend on the seriousness of the bite(s). Get it as clean as possible, bandage, and hope.

Side note. My daughter, in violation of PO rules, believes in the "here's a treat doggie" thing, she carries some goodies that, if a very aggressive dog comes at her, she throws in one direction while she boogies in the other. No bites on her fanny (yet)...

Just a quick Fitzoid-sanity-check(TM). Medical advice is best sought from a physician. My experience is that medical advice you get on the internet is worth what you pay for it. (I have professional credentials in this area, but I'm speaking just as plain Joe Citizen here.)

There are a lot of old canards in wilderness medicine about having dogs lick wounds to cleanse them. The bacteria in their mouths are far more benign to people than the bacteria in other people's mouths. (I.e., there are few cross-species infections.) Some people even think their saliva has curative properties.

Anyway, I'm sure lots of people will have great ideas here, but you may want to run this by an MD, although they will frequently be loathe to give you self-treatment information, for a variety of reasons.

I second much of what NVEAGLE said (welcome aboard, NVEAGLE). I've trained numerous K-9s of various breeds.
At a distance, nothing to loose with a staff or bear spray (it does work, and the volume is greater), or firearm. Shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all.

HOWEVER, once the battle is joined and you have "fed" the dog your arm:
1) Expect and grit your teeth for bone crushing bite pressure. This won't be a nip! I've had them crush a wristwatch through the protective sleeve of a attact training suit.
2) If you have a blade, use it. The belly and throat are within reach if the dog is attached to your arm. Handgun at this range could overpenetrate and shoot you, and I think it's a more dangerous shot.

IMHO if you think you'll have an easy time surviving (without major injury) the attack of a large and determined dog... you haven't been there.

"...there are few cross-species infections..."

My wife, and of course Blast, might disagree with that. "Cat bite fever" can be nasty. In my wife's case, the doctor explained to her that cat bite fever is a form of the good old plague...

Re seeking medical advice: I agree an MD's advice would be most helpful, but it is amazing who pops up on this forum.

Re seeking medical care post-attack: That is why I am doing a resource map of my bug out route(s) and bug in area.

Re suriving dog attack injuries: trying to prepare for the worst is the point of this thread.

Thanks for all the great thoughts, as disturbing to me as many of them are, please keep them coming.

Oh, I meant dog-to-human only!!! Thought that was clear! Sorry!!

Yes, cat infections can be dangerous to people, particularly to pregnant women!

Regarding non-dogs, there are a huge number of diseases that easily cross between species, including people! If you're ever bitten by a non-human primate, AIDs, TB, hepatitis and a whole range of things you may not of heard of will be occupying your attention for months to come...

My bad...

No problem.

My point is you'd likely rather be bitten by a dog than by another person (pit bulls and several other breeds excluded).

I think that letting it eat one of your arms is not a good idea...

I'd say keep it clean. If it gets infected you'll be in real trouble. Might not be a bad reason to have some prescription antibiotics in your FAK if you can get them.

Common ER treatment of dog and cat bites includes lots of wound irrigation with saline, tap water, or betadine/water mix, bacitracin ointment and gauze dressing. Generally no suturing of the wound, cuz it is already infected and you want it to drain easily. Lots of docs use a dose of iv antibiotics and send you home with ten days worth of one of the penicillin family- Bacteria tnd to be pretty temperature specific in their living conditions, so everything in a human's mouth thrives at 98.6 F and infects wounds pretty effectively. Dog and cat oral flora are happy at 104 F; soil bacteria usually like it cooler, submarine volcanic vent bacteria like it warmer. The other infection-realted issue, mentioned by several folks already, is that bites are puncture wounds and crush injuries, too-so the tissue surrounding the wound is less able to mount an effective immune response. edit: dogs spend too much time licking their parts to be effective wound cleaners, imho.

Side note: vets and kennel attendants deal with biting dogs bu using animal snares (http://animal-traps.com/catch-poles.htm). The old man made his about 28" long of 1/2 inch galvanized pipe with a T fitting on end. An aircraft cable loop extended through the pipe and out the T, and could be adusted by pulling on the loop on the other end. Once you snare 'em, you can keep the dog at distance, and help him relax by making calm and soothing mouth noises while applying firm pressure to the neck by tightening the noose. Edit: sturdy pipe snare can also be used as an impact tranquilizer prior to snaring the dog.

other side note: for statistics on dog homicides and how lawyers manage bad dogs, see http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/danger.htm#homicides.

"...letting it eat one of your arms is not a good idea..."

I don't want it eating any of my parts...

"...tightening the noose..."

I like that part.

The state, always trying to save a buck, once put animal snares in the trunks of our patrol vehicles. Made from 1/2" PVC and poly rope. I never ever heard of any officer actually trying to use the POS...

I'm in total agreement with you. I wouldn't let a dog lick a bleeding wound, but the web is filled with "miracle" stories that doing so not only cures cancer, it raises your IQ by 27 points.

Yep, thoroughly flushing the wound and leaving it open are the way to go. And I always carry antibiotics, but people self-medicating themselves is not always a good idea.

A real problem comes from people self-suturing wounds that haven't been properly cleaned, which isn't even always possible for deep punctures. That's a guaranteed recipe for something bad.

Now THAT is an amazing website.

Bookmarked for use when somebody says that guns should be banned and a person needing security should get a dog instead!

Wow!

Thanks for posting it!

I don't follow your logic. Yes, dogs unfortunately kill people but the numbers don't even compare remotely to deaths from firearms. (The website attributes 30 human deaths per year to dogs and notes how thoroughly they are investigated.)

Not to start a debate here, as it doesn't matter what side your on with gun control, but this comparison is total apples and oranges.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-study-deaths-maimings.htm

I find it interesting that in 25 years there have only been 4 accounts of a wolf-hybrid going after an adult in the US AND Canada. That's a crazy low number (assuming the study was thorough) compared to the other aggressive dogs in the list.

One of the neatest parts of the doglaw website is the dog homicide anecdote section. Lots of darwin at work: dogs attacking the very old and the very young is not a good thing, but there is a fair representation of attack dogs eating their owners or potential owners.

Note on semi-automatic weapons and dog packs: Can be very effective if the pack comes at you in single file.

Note for pacifists: consider dog appeasing pheromone (http://www.dennisthechemist.com/pet-and-...0&page_id=3)
Which actually seems to be helping our demented jack russell terrier.

Note for Blast: Hand grenades might be effective for pack defense, as well as doing much of the job of the sous-chef.

I don't make the comparison. Non-logical people make the comparison.

It's common for people who want to ban guns to suggest buying a dog instead.

A fired gun ALWAYS has a human behind it. The dog can "go off", sometimes fatally, on its own. So suggesting that one should get a dog instead is introducing a random triggering factor - a foolish idea.

Those who blithely suggest buying a dog for protection haven't read the website.
If in debate with them, I'll ask that they do some reading.

You can get steel toes which are composite and not steel. The boots are quite light and some might even make decent hikers.

I'm leaning towards naplam. Like the add says, "Just a dab wil do ya!".

-Blast

Napalm splatters too much for dog packs,,,AND remember, "Napalm sticks to kids".

A good old fashioned M-79 should do the dog trick quite nicely, too bad they aren't commercially available.

That sounds like my flare pistol, kills and cooks the target in 1 round.

Use a balsamic vinaigrette so you can start seasoning it early.

Dog, bear, horse, bugs, mre's.... this forum really needs a gourmet/nutrition section [/quote]


Field Expedient Rations.

I remember hearing somewhere that dogs hate ammonia as it really irritates their sensitive sniffers.

I think the biggest thing here, since this is a bug out situation, is avoidance. If you're in an emergency situation, you don't need to add serious injuries and the risk of infection to the list, as noted above.

Agreed. However, the question posed assumes avoidance is not an option.

Humans hate ammonia, too. Ever had a doctor break one of those vials under your nose while you are getting stitches? Sweet Jesus!

I'll moderate it!

-Blast

I'd say 2 things

If you are dealing with "take out dog BEFORE he knows you're there" - look up the term "Hush Puppy" - a nice Ruger MkII with a supressor

For dog packs, the summer I spent at my cousins farm in Canada, we had a LARGE problem with a ferral dog pack (there was about 75-80 dogs in the pack). We found a Lee-Enfield in .303 worked wonders. One afternoon we saw the pack, and trimmed out about 20 dogs before they ran - they were not sure where we were (Hint - up in the bucket of a payloader - about 200 yds out. Pick the biggest dog, shoot, repeat)

Speaking from personal experience, a 12 gauge will drop the meanest pit bull in his tracks with proper shot placement. And I do mean immediately. Speaking from my Dad's personal experience, a .45 acp will do the same to dobermans. I know of one man who killed a pit with a well placed hit from a hornbeam staff. My sister has a friend who was a sniper in the Army, and was forced to kill a dog with the prior "neck snap" method. The Army trains it's snipers in that method, it works.

Packs would be a whole 'nuther story.

benjammin, Not sure that the wd-40 would do the trick anymore. Years ago some idjit lit himself up with wd-40 and the makers of the product changed the propellant from propane to CO2. Was using wd-40 today for cooling a part going through a surface grinder and with all those sparks i didn't even get a little flame. So i don't think it lights off the way it used to.

Well, at least their jaws would be well lubricated.

I can second that. WD-40 used to be the best starting fluid for small engines money could buy. It's almost completely non flammable now. My dad puts his old cans under lock and key so it doesn't get wasted on squeaky hinges.

I have looked on the internet at some forearm bite sleeves and gauntlets, but they seem bulky and impractical to wear on a bug out. Is there something along these lines that is practical?

I think adding gauntlets, chain mail, etc., to your BOB is probably taking this whole wild dog thing perhaps just a little too far.

Although if you're bugging out to a Renaissance Fair, they might come in handy.

I expect you are right, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to do a little fact-gathering first. You never now what might be out there. Maybe a simple, inexpensive, lightweight, unobtrusive, comfortable, and effective guard exists that could be useful in other defense or offense situations.

You might not have time to create any other kind of shield. You could probably use time that might go to improvising a shield to prepare other things.

As I said, I can tell you from experience that .303 enfield with hunting rounds works fairly well out to at least 200 or so yards - shot placement doesn't even have to be that good. The GOOD thing about having the payloader was we were able to scoop up the bodies, and bury them quickly

His farm was just tin the "wrong place", far enough from the city to be a farm, close enough that the idiots who wanted to dump a dog, rather than take it to a shelter would bring them to the area, and release them. It didn't help that it was also one of those "vacation communities". The population in the area probably went up 4x between US Memorial day and Labor day, despite it being in Canada (he lived oh, 1/2-3/4 mile from the lake, and close enough to Buffalo that they had tons of US vacationers who owned summer houses)

Now this is just hypothetical and the internet, not to mention it would be illegal for me to suggest that anyone can try this for themselves to test it's effectiveness on non-serious cuts, scrapes, punctures or boils within the borders of the US, it's territories and protectorates or in any situation other than a life threatening emergency far from and days or weeks away from any possible professional medical help but if you were writing a fictional story and one of your characters was wounded or injured as described, you could write about them...

...stripping off some bark from a live White Pine tree and how the inner bark works extremely well in promoting healing, preventing infection and drawing out any existing infection. You might describe how they bind or tape the inner bark over a thin layer of gauze or sterilized cloth and over the wound (after cleaning out the wound and stopping any bleeding) or applying it directly if they must and changing the whole dressing twice a day if they can.

You could even write about them using an even more effective method of mashing the inner bark up and spreading it thickly (1/4 to 1/2 inch or so) inside a folded piece of sterilized cloth and binding or taping that over the wound in what used to be called a poultice and changing that poultice every day or two... if you were writing a fictional story.

Actually, this is really a good idea... All sorts of discussions. Beef jerkey recipes... Blast's bug adventures... MREs / Mainstay rations... Pemmican recipes...

So, how about it?

Do it! But how are you gonna figure out the nutritional rate of June Bugs???

"..."neck snap" method...it works..."

Really? Great, I have always wondered if it would. Did the "snapper" suffer any bad bites???

Well, it has been a while since I did the poor man's flamethrower with a can. In that case, switch to Justice Brothers Green Label Carb Cleaner. Even if you don't get it ignited, the chemicals alone might be enough to fully inebriate the beast. We used to go after hornet's nests with a can or two; the hornets would pop out of their nest, we'd zotz them and they'd be curled up and dead before they hit the ground, not even a twitch left in them. Better'n any wasp spray I ever used.

One more thing, a guard dog behind a fence can almost always be baited off of an attack. It might take a 5 lb chunk of meat, but once they get their mouths on it, especially if someone keeps a hold of the other end, they likely will refuse to let go, allowing the trespassers to come and go. Fresh pigskin fatback is preferable, as it won't rip apart easily, and is nigh irresistable. Once they start doing the tug of war with you, they become nearly oblivious to anything else. It takes a really well trained dog to overcome such a distraction.

+1 on that. Products like Brakleen (and the older, more powerful, no longer available because too many mechanics had no skin on their hands anymore products) are chok full of chemicals that will kill just about anything...including you if you stay in contact with them long enough.

My dad's secret stash also has a can of old contact cleaner...Lectri...something. He uses it on hornets and locks it away so it can't be used for it's intended purpose

Yes, but he resigned himself to it before performing the manuever. It was in a city park in Washington, DC, with the owner right there. He told the owner several times to call off the dog, and the owner laughed at him. The dog was circling and nipping. When it came in for the kill, it was in for a BIG surprise.

The owner went ballistic, and called 911. The police arrested the owner. Nice to see some justice done, even in DC.

He later told my sister that he got that training many years ago, snipers hate dogs, very hard to hide from them. He always wondered if it would work. It did. He required stitches, but no major damage.

If there had been 2, now, I'd want that .303 and a bucket loader!!!!

As an aside, I have another sister who swears by the artificial lemons you get in the grocery store. One shot in the face with that, then all you have to do is show them the lemon, and they scatter... I've never tried that yet myself.

Now that's scary.

I'm wondering what you mean by "all that goes with it." The responsibility, cost, CCW, training? For me, being able to defend myself is THE most critical aspect for survival when faced with an imminent threat. I can't imagine NOT investing time and money for that level of protection. Having spray is nice, but sometimes you have to go to DEFCON IV.

Just sayin'...

Nutritional Value of Various Insects per 100 grams

-Blast: the all knowing, the all eating

Hey Red:

DefCon V: Peace in the Kingdom

DefCon IV: Peacetime Steaming at sea
Expect hostilities in 48 hrs

DefCon III: Expect Hostilities in 24 Hrs

DefCon II: Expect Hostilities in 12 Hrs

DefCon I: Hostilities have commenced.

"...he resigned himself to it before performing the manuever..."

That is a given. Kinda like a knife fight, ya gotta expect to get cut...

Cool. Now all I gotta figure out is what a gram equals.

OBG, who doesn't do metric...

I always wondered what criteria were for what level.

Thanks wildman

Yeah - I was told first day on the farm - you do NOT go out alone into the fields, and one person keeps dog watch

If you were staying within a few hundred feet of the house, you were fine, the pack never came close to the house

I've heard a gram is about the weight of a paper clip.

That's how I picture it in my mind.

Can anyone discribe this dog "Neck Snap Method"?

Many years ago a powerful friend of mine was attacked at night by a German Shepherd dog. The dog lunged at his chest and he grabbed it by the neck and rump, in his words he then "broke it's back over my knee". The next morning I helped treat the bite wounds to my friends left hand and saw the dead dog in the ditch, it's body was bent at a right angle.

At this time another friend of mine is on IV antibiotics to combat infection in his arm from a dog bite received during training. After the bite his arm swelled quickly and painfully to his armpit before he went to the hospital.

Mike

Here is my admittedly poor description from above:

Feed it your weak forarm, then put your strong forarm behind its head, and snap your weak forarm away from you at the same time you snap the stong one toward you. Supposed to break the dogs neck

Alright, I have the official answer to this matter.

I just saw the new Batman movie. He's twice taken down by Rottweilers. First time, one managed to both bite through the armored Batsuit and take a good chunk out his arm.

Second time, he's taken down by three Rottweilers. Batman manages to beat the tar out of one of them. The other two almost have him for dinner.

Anyone crazy enough to think they're going to successfully break a Rottweiler or Pitbull's neck, send me some of what you're smoking.

No doubt, some special forces guy somewhere has done it once upon a time, after years of training, and he probably got lucky at that. But my thinking is if Batman can't do it, you can't either.

"...Batman can't do it, you can't either..."

I think Batman's kinda goofy, but I have no doubt that I personally would be lucky to break a Yorkies neck...

God made man, Sam Colt made then equal.


That works for dogs, they may have big teeth, but my 10-22 (25 round mag, several of these mags) or my 870 will shift the odds back to me.

Plus all of us have something a dog doesn’t have. A brain that reasons things out, this is the most powerful weapon there is.

Friend,

Years ago I was almost killed by a 68 lb, attack trained Pit Bull (male). It had been a fighting dog and was a few years old. I was lucky in the end and only got dog slobber on me.

At the time I had little experience with vicious dogs. I had grown up out in the country and had seen packs of various wild un owned dogs. I had climbed trees and waited those out. I had killed one dog that kept coming toward me and kept trying to fight my dog(who was a collie and chow mix). I used a crossbow to kill it.

In 1991 I was involved in ground operations in Desert Storm. We shot dozens of wild dogs that came to our areas in packs searching for food. We were able to save one pup from a litter as the wild pack we had shot had recently eaten the rest of the puppies from the litter. It was savage business for me as I love dogs. I hated to do it. But I had to do it.

I have seen pit bulls shot and initially survive a few 9mm hits.

If any dog is agressive and comes at you, you better shoot it fast and often. A bite on and arm or leg can infect and end up taking your life or your limb.

IF a dog is trained or just wild, it can kill you. If its a pack of dogs. Shoot quick, give each some lead, and then shoot them again.

Its is the only solution if you cannot avoid the entire situation.

CP

Boy did I get that bass ackwards! Sheesh!

This goes way beyond this thread so I am going to start a new topic titled "A handgun and all that goes with it."

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the importance of body language when dealing with dogs (and other animals).

Animals gather a great deal of information by how you carry yourself, how you move, direct eye contact (or not), the sounds you make, even how you smell. Are you predator or prey? Are you the top dog in a pack (territorial challenge)? Are you a predator that's just passing through and not looking for a fight today?

This doesn't mean the proper body language (or scent) will prevent all animal attacks. But it can deflect quite a few, and buy time in other situations.

(Aside: you may laugh, but I'm beginning to believe a person can learn to generate the right scent in an animal-related stress situation --at least in relation to dogs -- and so influence the situation. Sounds like voodoo, I know. But you can talk yourself into a certain mindset, and respond to an animal from there -- tone, body language, scent all arise from that mindset.)

All very good points, Doug

With a nod to Benjamin regarding box-thinking: the kindly folks at Cold Steel have the answer: a boar spear. (http://www.coldsteel.com/spears-high-performance-spears.html)Such spears were popular in Europe in the pre-firearm days for hunting wild boars. They have a wide, elliptical blade and behind it, a T-shaped cross-bar to keep the impaled boar from running up the shaft and doing wild-boar stuff (goring, tusking, stomping) to the hunter. Modify the walking staff to accept the spear-tip, carry the blade in a belt sheath, and have the ideal dog poker. And since Blast camps among the piggies, it might have other uses for him

Bayonet would do the same job, on lugged walking stick or military rifle. The SMLE and Springfield fans would be particularly well equipped with the long bayonets issued for those weapons. Back in the fifties, the neighborhood surplus shop had barrels full on Springfield and Enfield bayonets at $5 each. *sigh*

I've handled those boar spears. They're stupidly thick and heavy, like a lot of Cold Steel products, and excessively heavy. That's not to say people haven't killed boars with them, just that I'd not rely on it for any defensive use.

I haven´t read the whole thread yet so I don´t know if anyone has mentioned these options.

Benjammin has a good idea - the flame. I have been thinking of getting some kind of torch or even creating it myself as a self defense weapon against the attacking animals for some time. This torch should be lightweight, it should have a good range but it should not be too big.
You could attach it for example to the side of your back pack. It should be attached the way that you could "draw" it easily and very quickly. Then you could train yourself to the sequence of the moves - pull it and then light it using lighter/whatever as fast as possible.
You could keep the dogs/other animals away by waving it etc.. I think they should instinctively fear the fire even if they would not touch the flame directly.
The key feature of the torch would be that the torch cannot put out no matter how wildly you are waving it.
Maybe you could handle several dogs with it if you would be very fast, centered and therefore could detect and prevent an attack from every direction. You could then retreat and find quickly some place to go where the dogs cannot reach you (if they would still be around you) - tree, building, ... and then call for help.

At least this is my theory. And it´s unproven theory I just thought might work.

For example this torch looks quite good.

Another torch.

Do you know other commercial camping torches?



The other solution I have been thinking about would be some kind of sonic weapon.

This ultrasonic Dog Repeller looks interesting but from the description it is not 100% solution.

A promising description of the Sonic Devastator.

(Excuse my English.)

How about a belt-fed mini gun.

One of the things we used to do with WD-40 was to spray a dense line of product on the ground 10 feet or so in front of us, then ignite the spray and flamethrow to the line which would ignite and create a wall of fire. I like the idea of building a wall of flame to hide/prepare behind.

A can of flammable spray material seems much less likely to be considered a contraband weapon as well. It is also something kinda everyday. The pluses just keep adding up. Some of those Wasp killer spray cans throw a spray a considerable distance. The waterbased ones won't likely work, but those more traditional petroleum mixes might burn quite nicely.

I gotta think if a dog is on fire, he is just gonna lose interest in doing anything else but get away from it, which given their level of intelligence means running to the hills.

Disclaimer: a burning dog running through the woods is probably a big forest fire hazard. If you are going to test this theory, make sure you are in a controlled environment.

Yep. As I tell my nephews, "Don't try this at home. Do it at the old sand pit on the edge of town."

-Blast

Did you find that sand pit or did you make that sandpit?

Some of the places I have to go for work are somewhat remote water sources. Cougar and bear tracks have been seen in the mud beside the water.

I carry some large flares with me.

I have heard that dogs hate the smell of white vinegar. Maybe a stream type of dispenser?

Sue

I wash dogs faces with white vinegar as de skunking agent. They kind of like it. But the concept seems like a good one. A supersoaker full of ammonia, tabasco, clorox, gasoline or paint thinner would cause permanent and discourage damage on the squirtee. Squirt guns are perhaps higher profile than aerosol cans, but there seems to be some variation in propellant. I believe hairspray is the fuel of choice for the pvc cannon crowd.

I don't think that they like ammonia either...

I use to make tennis ball cannons when I was a kid, we used Zippo lighter fluid. It worked great; it would send a tennis ball up out of site. Lots of fun, and not so fun trying to find the tennis balls after they came down.

You know, some of the not-so-new pepper sprays still use a petroleum base as the propellant. I wonder how well those would work as a flamethrower. If they work well, you would have double effect of fire plus pepper spray!

I think this thread is Waaaay overblown and people needed to get a grip about 100 posts back. A pack of over a hundred dogs ... please.

On the simple, and really practical side, if you have a problem with dogs or other animals coming around a pumped up supersoaker loaded with a light solution of sudsy ammonia in water makes a lasting impression.

They hate the ammonia smell and can't lick themselves to get it off because of the soap. The soap also allows the ammonia to sink into the fur so it doesn't just run off. They can't stand to be around the smell but can't get away from it or do much about it. For a day or so you have a very miserable critter.

I keep checking back to see when they morph into zombie dogs.

See, for zombie dogs, the flamethrower idea still works.

Of course, any zombie critters and I go to my old standby of hydrogen and flourine, heh heh heh...

If the thought of using it is enough to make Ironraven run away screaming, it must be good!

Me thinks this began when the recipes started getting posted...

Correction, Ironraven AND Blast run away screaming.

-Blast

I'm not a bit worried about wild doggies, but I know a few "domesticated" mutts that I have a great dislike for. I LIKE your idea!!!

Just get a Wasp Knife. If you stab one all 100 will blow up...guaranteed!

In my case, that might leave evidence all over me, letting the owners of those obnoxious little yapping all night ankle biters know who done it...

We have pretty well exhausted the dog piece. Perhaps we should move on to address attacks by:

A flutter of jellyfish
A bale of turtles
A bury of rabbits
A colony of lepers
A pride of lions
A sounder of swine
An ugly of walruses

nursemike, where the heck do you live to fear all of those things?

I agree this thread is more than exhausted.

I just love the collective nouns. Exhausted and exhausting. And here we are, flogging it to life again-will the madness never end?

Now that was funny!

I have to chime in, everyone is missing the obvious easy answer. The holy handgrenade of antioch. It works on killer bunnies so it should work on anything else....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk&NR=1

but don't forget the 40 meter killing radius