Hello again everybody. Gotta start this by saying I've gotten some great information from everyone so far, this will all make my trip much more possible. I have another question for you guys....So here's my question:

In this Blue Ridge Mountain region, we have black bears. I'm not worried about them, they have no natural fear or aggression toward humans(unlike Brown (Grizzly)Bears), unless I were to get between a mother and her cubs or something........... But black bears are the "Raiders", of the bear world- They'll go after food if they smell it. Any suggested methods of hanging up supplies? Should I bring some rope to suspend them in an open area out of reach, or should I just climb a tree and stick my bag between some branches? I've heard that these guys can climb trees pretty well...

Bear cannister for all that stuff. Best apparently a BearVault (sp?): pricey but it works, as opposed to the others that fail from time to time. Hanging bear bags has apparently just trained bears to get them down. Others emphasize cooking / eating / relieving yourself a very long way from your sleeping camp.

Ditto on the doing food prep / latrine away from where you will be sleeping. As many have suggested, cook, eat, move on and camp for the night.

A bear bag will probably be your most viable solution when being concerned for weight.

A few years back I was camping with the scouts. One troop was told to put a garbage bag at the end of their cots for their wrappers and such. Well, a bear came into one tent, pushed a kid out of the way (giving him a pretty good gash on the side of their head) and grabbed their footlocker that had food in it. Tons of things were done wrong in that scenario.

Sorry, I meant Bearikade:

http://www.wild-ideas.net/b_faqs.html

This is actually SOP in many bear places, and I think its a good idea. Marginal extra effort, in my opinion.

I've heard recommendations that you should eat, cook, relieve yourself, and store your smelly food/gear a mile away!

Personally I don't go to that extreme but if you do hang your stuff in a tree leave it hanging from a length of rope, don't just get it wedged up the trunk...all bears can climb trees and will if it suits their fancy. My favorite trick is to tie a carabiner to a rope and use the weight to easily throw that over a high branch. I lower it, loop another rope (which is tied to my bear bag) through it and then haul the biner up before there is any tension. The rope slides easily through the 'biner and it's easy to get your stuff up and down with no snags and no damage to the tree. Leave it hanging and away from any largish branches so a climbing bear can't get to it. A smart bear will likely get it anyhow but if it's out of camp a ways at least all you've lost is your food and a bit of gear which would likely be salvagable.

Also use waterproof bags as they help keep the smell in. Most roll top dry bags have a D-Ring which works very well for this.

Don't forget to hang clothes and cooking gear that have food smell on them as well. I know a guy who had his tent destroyed by a grizzly after he ate an apple on the way to camp and wiped his hands on his pants. When he got to camp he changed and left his pants in his tent.

"A smart bear will likely get it anyhow "

Bear cannister. By all accounts, after a while the bear will give up trying to get into a cannister and you still have your stuff. No reason you couldn't hang your cannister in a tree or between trees if you thought it best.

That's true. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I've never been able to justify the cost of those things when a tree has always worked for me.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html

The PCT hang is fool-proof, even in areas with problem bears. To be honest, I don't use anything but a standard hang in the Appalachians. The only place you have problems are in well-used (and abused) campsites, usually near roads, where the bears are used to a steady supply of free food from dumb people.

Many of those spots have been identified as problem areas and supplied with steel bear bag cables, poles or lockers to keep your food safe.

There was a lighter version of bear cannister made just for black bears. Now that I check their webpage (bearvault.com), it's rated for grizzles, too. I have one sitting in my gear closet, but I've never used it because it's: a) overkill, and b) ten times heavier than a nylon bag and 50' of cord.

Wow. The PCT method is very sililar to mine. I'm totally stealing the stick stopper technique. That's brilliant.

You just have to be smarter than the average bear!

The PCT method is not as bear resistant as a proper counterbalance
method using a retrieval cord and the right tree and limb. The
PCT method is prefered by those like to carry a little less gear
and deal with less human habituated bears.

Counterbalance link

http://owareusa.com/food%20hang.html

So there you are in the back of beyond - or at least a long hungry walk from the nearest food - and you choose to hope the bears and other critters in your area haven't yet learned how to defeat your hanging bag trick, that no high wind comes up that puts your bag beyond retreival, that your knots, bag, sticks, or cord do not fail, etc.

As opposed to choosing a container that weighs two pounds, that's 32 ounces, but has been repeatedly bear-tested with success?

What would you recommend to a person who is concerned with survival and energency preparedness?

Sorry to be the devil's advocate today dweste but the smallest bear vault is over $200...that's just too much for most people. For me space is at a premium and I just can't afford a $225 dollar stool that also keeps bears away from my food.

If I were to go with a bear proof solution I'd likely get something like the Ursack ( http://www.ursack.com/ursack-S29.htm ). It's much cheaper, lighter, isn't bulky like a hard empty cannister, and seems to be effective from what I can tell.

In researching this I've read reports of Grizzlys figuring out the screws on the Bear Vault using their claws to uncrew them. I doubt they're confirmed but still good food for thought.

Bears are damn smart. But they also prefer the easy meal. All of this is just deterent. If your food is harder to get than walking to the river and scooping a salmon, your food is safe. If the bear decides that your food is worth the effort, it will eventually find a way unless it's locked up in a steel locker...but those have been gotten into too.

Where I have used the bear hangs was with groups
where we would have sometimes 200 lbs of food- 20+ lbs per
person. It would have taken 3 canisters each, at least, just
for the food, not counting pots and pans (which wouldn't
fit in a canister), toilet items, etc.
Did this for several summer seasons. Never lost food, though had
some bears try. And we used them in Sequoia-Kings Canyon (with
special permit) where some of the cleverest bears live.

There is always a way to retrieve them, believe me I know. One
trick to to carry more 1mm cord and a carabiner. This can be used
in various ways to grab the hang bag or cord.


A canister is recommended for most folks with problem bears as
they are more fool proof. However they have limitations as to
how much they can carry.

Lets see 6 lbs of canisters and $700.

Versus say some rope and
a carabiner and 2 stuffsacks and under 1/2 lb and $30.

I would have
money and weight left over for a PLB, multitool, extra fuel,
food and water.

Another option may be to hang a watershed bag, they will seal up any odor and can be used for other things as well. I have several of these bags and also have solar cells, electronics and cloths and my sleeping bag in them and they fit in my backpack. I do not worry about water intrusion whatsoever. I can scuba dive with these bags or if I have to cross a river with a pack I have no worry about using my pack as a raft because everything inside is water proof (not water resistant). When shopping for a bag and the bag says don't submerge below 3 feet, I'm not interested in it. These bags can go down to 200 feet easy and are hardcore. With all the flooding and hurricanes, I keep all my important documents in them plus my BOB and backpack has them in there. I could easily use one of the small ones for food and hang it if needed. I wouldn't have to worry about the smell or any rain that comes down, everything is high and dry. Money well spent on a bad that will last a lifetime. I like there bags more than there back packs. The back packs have no support like my Osprey, so I put the watershed duffles inside the pack and I have a comfortable long range waterproof back pack with Solar capability and I don't worry about my down sleeping bag getting wet (unless the water level goes bellow 200 feet underwater). Water flooding and smell are not an issues. Why carry more bags than you need when you can carry one.


1. Water proof to 200 feet
2. Has a purge valve to compact it and remove air out of the bag
3. Lifetime warranty
4. Easy to open and seal bag, very durable, orderless and waterproof once inside.


http://drybags.com/home.html

I use the rope/bag rig as well, even though I'm not in "bear country".

Good idea with putting the toothpaste/etc in there as well.

There's enough raccoons, bobcats (had one molest my pack in a tree one time), fire ants, etc running around that I sleep better with my food hanging from a branch way up in the air.

Hacksaw, advocate away, you devil!

The forum wouldn't be interesting without the debate.

I agree most people will not choose to buy a bear canister, whether it is $60, $100, or $200. And I agree almost no one will buy 2.

As long as it is a reasoned choice, I am good with it.

The question I am left with is, if money were no object what would you choose for an extended trek in grizzly country?

In the middle ages, travelers feared that the devil would take them if they slept on the ground-so they tied their thumbs together and hung themselves from a branch. eliminates the need for sleeping bag, pad, ground cloth, tent...so you could hang yourself next to the bear bag, and solve lotsa problems.

Not true at all - the Bear Vault starts at $60 and goes up to $80 for the larger model. Garcia, Counter Assault are in that same range, and the smaller Bare Boxer is only $40. (The Bearikade Carbon Fiber models are more in the range you noted - but that's the "Porsche" route when lots of approved Chevys are available.)

The Ursack is a good product but isn't allowed in a number of areas including Yosemite and SEKI, Lost Coast, Adirondack High Peaks, parts of the Cascades, etc. I'd consider it slightly less foolproof than the hard-sided containers, though I do recommend it for areas where it's allowed and the bears aren't habituated.

I give all of the canisters a big thumbs up over any hanging method. It's so much easier, and so much more foolproof, to toss everything into one at the end of a long day and rest easy. Yes, most of the products have been breached here and there, though I've heard from rangers that it's almost always due to user error or a worn canister that no longer locks correctly (common with Garcias rented out too many times without maintenance.) Compare that to hanging, where losses are common.

One slip-up and your food is gone, and you've contributed to the death of a bear in areas where they manage them once habituated. The most effective choice will be the one you're most likely to use and which doesn't take lots of fiddling.

I was just utilizing the link provided to the carbon fiber models as they were being utilized as the example.

Personally I'll always hang my food and far from camp. Just because food is safe from bears doesn't mean I want them in camp trying to get it anyhow. I don't buy that any container will mask the scent enough. Bears smell too good.

I'll bet they had really long thumbs. Or more likely, very short...

I'd go with an OPSAK (makers of Aloksak). It's an airtight, waterproof and odorproof bag. I'd put the OPSAK in a stuffsack (Don't stuff it so hard that you break the OPSAK seal), attach a line and hang it in a tree away from camp "just in case".

OPSAK

Oh, absolutely - the whole point of the canisters is that it doesn't matter if they smell them (which they will), since they can't get inside.

If you expect that bears won't notice hang bags and any bag using an "odor proof sack" you're just kidding yourself - the bears will find them very quickly. The odor proof sacks will have smells on the outside the first time you put your garbage into one or put away the rest of your stuff after a meal (and over time they'll develop leaks), so they really don't do much to slow the bears down.

Creating an impenetrable barrier is the best bet.

See that's the logic that escapes me. I'm far less worried about losing my food than I am about a bear in my camp. That's why I hang my food. Bear vault or not, the food just has to be hung or stashed far from camp.

Agreed. Bearikade or hanging bag: no food in camp in bear country.

The "experts" also recommend changing clothes so you don't wear your cookin' or fishin' duds in camp. I guess you are supposed to safeguard the cookin' and fishin' clothes, too.

So what I see is an early camp for coking, cleaning the fish, washing up, etc. (you're not going to use deodorant, toothpaste, or anything scented for the duration of the trip, apparently). Then you change into your sleeping duds, safeguard all the rest of the stuff, and hike up the trail many hundred yards to camp and sleep.

In the morning you come back and, what, change back into the cookin' and fishin' duds to hike for the day?

My rule, which I try to follow...it's not always easy, is to have a different set of clothes just for camp (including sleeping in). That way I can be sweaty, soaked, stinky, gross, etc. and can give myself a wipe down, put on some dry clothes and feel civil again. The nasty clothes get rinsed if needed and hung out to dry and air out in the back 40.

That said I'm human and I get lazy...I'm sure nature will force me to learn a lesson about that one day.

Thankfully bears aren't an issue in the winter!

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7512.html
For those interested in camping in parts on NY State
Bear Resistant Canister Regulation
Subparagraph 190.13(f)(3)(xiv) of Title 6 of the New York Code, Rule and Regulation (6 NYCRR) (effected August 24, 2005) states that no person "during the period April 1 through November 30, no overnight camper in the Eastern High Peaks Zone shall fail to use bear-resistant canisters for the storage of all food, food containers, garbage, and toiletries."
continued at link

Many places have similar requirements, most in park reg,s. An additional point for getting a cannister.

I was just reading up on the Canadian National Parks website about what they recommend for black bears

They recommend suspending food between 2 trees and recommend bear proof containers only when you're somewhere that you can't hang your food. I wouldn't have thought about that one but the picture on this related page makes it clear that just hanging might not be enough for some bears:

http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/oursnoir-blackbear/page4_E.asp

They also recommend a 100M distance between camp and smelly activities like cooking.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/oursnoir-blackbear/page6_E.asp

As a guy thinking about being prepared to survive, does all this mean if we think we are ever going to be in bear country we should learn and observe bear discipline all the time?

For example, I know I am not likely to get my tent or sleeping bag deodorized (if that is even possible) so I should not bring or keep food or toiletries - or a pack in which I carry such stuff - into either, ever?? Never use deodorant on any trip in which I will use my tent or sleeping bag??

Thanks, NightHiker.

I may not have been clear. I have not generally observed any bear precautions in the places I hike and camp because they have never been recommended. I have never seen any sign of bears and never heard of anyone encountering a bear problem where I go (California coastal beach and rainforest areas, and central California high altitude - over 7,000 feet - Sierra Nevada mountains).

I am now planning some trips in the Yosemite area and northern Shasta-Trinity area, both of which are known to have many bears and some human-bear interaction problems. Bear cannisters and conduct precautions are recommended.

My question: because my gear is going to be used in bear and non-bear environments, does that mean I need / should use standard bear precautions everywhere I camp? Or is it enough to change gears and use such precautions only in bear country?

I would say that taking bear precautions where there are no bears is not needed.

But do your homework. Bears turn up in unlikely places and can travel a long way for food. Just because you've never seen one before doesn't mean there isn't.

I know the parks site in Canada lists all known bears and predators sightings weekly by region so that you can look before you go and know that there's a sow with 2 cubs hanging around the area you're heading to (for example).

This also helps in spring if a cranky bear comes out of hibernation early...a bad situation for everybody involved. I normally don't worry about bears while it's still winter out but if a bear has been sighted, I'll bring the spray and hang my food.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/oursgest-bearmanag/yoho/ours-bear1_e.asp

Okay, I am thinking all that through.

I am used to: Bundling up in my bag, jacket, cap, and gloves, and leaning over to cook dinner. Dirty stuff left in hot soapy water until morning. Comfort journeys less than 50 feet away.

Going through some culture shock is all.

Why not make it a habit, so you don't forget to do it in the wrong area???

Yeah. You're going to have to change a few things.

FYI. I keep my clothes in an OR roll top silnylon dry bag (or waterproof compression bag) and my food in another...as much for scent control as moisture control.

You can also control smell by going with dried foods and 'boil in bag' techniques. Saves on washing dishes too. It's all too common for somebody to dump dish water 10 feet from camp in the bushes only to have a bear sniff around later.

I've heard that a bear is as sensitive to our body smell as we are to a skunk's. Not sure if that's true or how you'd measure though

There are two main ways to get the experience needed to make good judgment calls.

1. Go under prepared and figure out what you need to bring next time.
2. Go over prepared and figure what you can leave out next time.

I much prefer #2. In regards to bear country, I'd start assuming I need full precautions, and adjust accordingly after I've gotten sufficient experience to know otherwise.

I have a tent that I have used, a lot, since I bought it in '89 or so. I have never cooked or eaten in it, but food, toothpaste, etc, has been stored in it from time to time. I have used it in Yosemite Valley, Little Yosemite Valley (where there are a lot of bears, altho I never saw one there), and Sequoia NP, all without a problem. But a friend, with a similar tent, was in the backcountry of Yosemite once, came back from a hike and found a new door in his tent, even tho there was nothing "smelly" in it at the time. So, to try to answer your question, who knows???

I agree completely.

If you make it a habit then you're covered where ever you go.

Bears pop up in the darnedest places.

Besides, there are other critters sniffing around looking for a easy meal that may not be as big a threat as bears, but could be a damned inconvenience.

I learned that the hard way when I first started backpacking when I crawled out of my tent in the dark and stumbled onto a pile of fire ants working over the area where I had cooked and eaten my dinner the previous night.

Big Mama Nature is a harsh and very effective teacher...

This is probably as good a place to ask this as anywhere. How 'bout a list/pics of what you plan to carry on this little jaunt???

Two years ago I was on a remote muzzleloader moose hunting trip with 4 other fellows. We lounged, cooked, ate and slept in a 14 x 16 canvas wall tent heated with a small wood stove.

The problem was not bears it was SKUNKS! Late one night we were all sleeping on cots in the tent when a large skunk entered under the wall. One of the fellows woke-up and quietly alerted the rest of us. The skunk stayed under the kitchen table while we all just watched it. We decided that if we killed it, or even moved out of our sleeping bags that the skunk would spray and all of our stuff would be ruined. So after a little while the skunk went back out the spot he had come it and we sealed the tent edge down.

The next night the skunk showed-up outside the tent earlier in the evening and a quick solution was found to the problem.

Mike

Haha, sounds like a pretty suspenseful situation! Well I'm not so sure I'm going to be using a tent, though considering it... Thing is, I can't stand not being able to see what's around me. And not to mention(lol, always seems to come back to these guys!), what if a bear decides he likes the way I smell? All I'll know is that something BIG is trying to open my tent like a can of sardines, and where can I go? Walls going crazy around me would be a terrible disorientation. All in all, I like being in open-air. Been camping a good bit, but I've used a tent only a few times, mainly going camping with my family when I was quite young. Since then, I prefer being under the stars.... In this time of year I don't think it would be as much of an issue unless it rains- But the winter is a different story, I'd assume....

i did not read ALL those replys to your post,but in canoe
country where bears are known pack thiefs there are two
methods---one is to "tree" the pack and the other is to
leave it off in the woods or along the shore where a bear
searching a campsite will not find it..stashed packs should
be sealed up to keep food smells in..both groups think the
other is nuts..good hanging trees are hard to find and the
bears know where to look for the ones campers always use
on the other side,leaving a pack on the ground is making it
easy to take as you can never get all the food smell off it..
it he old days campers would just leave the pack tied to a
tree at ground level and put the cook gear on top as an alarm
and hope they got out of tent fast enought to chase the bear off--

We used to try submersing the food in problem bear areas
when canoeing, till we saw one sniffing over the water
where our food was stashed. We managed to throw rocks
to get him to leave, but we hung our food from then on.

Hmm... All good advice- and I don't think I'll be tying my stuff to a tree as a bear-lure... I'm trying to avoid a knife-fight with a bear at all costs, lol... Decided I'm not gonna bring the rocket launcher, so it might get pretty tricky!

"...winter is a different story, I'd assume..."

That statement leaves the impression that you have little or no experience with cold/wet weather "camping." If you don't want a tent, how are you going to protect yourself from the weather? Tarp, bivy, or something else???

I've gone camping in wet weather a good bit, had no issues- I bring a tarp, set up a couple poles for a lean-to style, and angle it downhill. Far as cold weather goes, how much insulation does a tent actually provide? In snow it's obvious, but is the dead-air bonus something that I wouldn't be able to compensate for somehow?

this is, of course, a canoe trippers way of getting the food
out of reach and keep the critters out of the biscuit mix
and peanut butter..a line is tossed over a branch and the
bag pulled up..there are several ways of doing this involving
pullys and several ropes..



but as this is a survival site the question really is--
how to keep your hard earned chow away from the racoons
and mice when you have not much more gear than fits in a
candy tin--eat everthing as soon as you get it?? sleep on
top of it and fend off the varmints at all costs??..use a
plastic bag and fishing line to hang the last bit of rat
meat up a tree???--

Water doesn't mask scent...it just causes it to 'pool' on top off the water, concentrating it. Ask anybody who runs a scent dog in the bush. The best thing a person can do for the dog is run through water.

A decade or so ago, there was an outbreak of rabies in wild animals and some domestic critters- I helped take care of a kid savaged by an allegedly rabid beaver (those bucky-beaver teeth are even more effective on flesh than on trees) and a farmer exposed to a proven-rabid cow (not a cow-bite victim-something bit the cow, and the cow slobbered virus-laden saliva on the farmer, who had some broken skin on this beslobbered hands). That got me thinking about the possibility of rabid bears. The weapons that provide reliable one-shot kills on charging bears tend to have wheels attached, amking them poor choices for carry weapons. A wise old woodsman told me not to worry: rabies is generally transmitted by bites, and not many things get to bite a bear.

Guess we're not gonna find out anytime soon...

Actually, I was thinking about having some Howitzer support on standby- Not a problem! :-D

Sir, are you referring to my packing list/pictures? I'm still gathering everything, but I'll post it when it's finished- will most definitely get some critique on my final pack-list---

So, what gives with the "do your potty business well away from camp?" I've never heard of that before.

I've heard of the "triangle" method where you camp in one place, store your food in another, and cook in a third spot, all about 100 yards apart, but I've never heard that bears are attracted to human waste.

And what about pepper spray for black bears. If one did catch a bear going after one's food, would pepper spray be a good idea or are you "asking for it" (risking that the bear would turn on you)?

I don't know if this has been stated already, but even if so, it is important enough to remember that I will state it anyways:
Bears can climb trees, and they have learned how to deal with ropes. Believe it. They are very smart and just as agile. The only sure way is with a canister, and keep it a safe distance from where you sleep, outside of your pack. Don't hang anything, as bears can get it and at the same time damage the tree. They might even go the route of severing the rope by chewing. Again, bears are smart.
Don't use canisters inside bags, as they can be carried away, and even though the food inside is not gotten, you may find it difficult to track your food to its new, bear-chosen location. Even the smartest bear will feel less than motivated to roll a canister to any considerable distance. If you think canisters are too heavy, then reorganize your pack list by eliminating something(s) of equal weight, so that you do include one. Besides, at a couple of pounds, they are not too heavy. Toughen up, ultralighter.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for maintaining that our wild friends remain wild. Canisters do not reward hungry bears in any way, and that's how they learn to avoid human camps as food sources. Non-food items that they smell might still attract them, so you might want to canister those things too, but bears are ultimately only there for calories. If their hunger is rewarded by raiding a camp, they will do it again. A bold bear is a dead bear. Let them remain wild, free, and alive.
Your food source should be thought of as secondary to the health of a wild ecosystem. We are all guests of the wild, while in the wild. Please keep it, and rememeber that.

I have to disagree with you there. Humans are just as naturally occuring as anything else. We need to be responsibile for our actions, we need to do a good job of stewarding the wild, but we aren't some invader species that has somehow "infected" the earth. If we were an infection, the the cure would be of course to eliminate the infection. I trust you'll be the first to volunteer?

Responsibility and diligence in the wild? Yes. A guest? Certainly not. John Muir said it well, "people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life."

Nicely said Jim.

Humans might be as naturally occuring as anything else, but they are no longer wild, which I believe is a shame. As far as eliminating myself for the sake of the wild, I have in fact sacrificed my old and wrongful attitudes and beliefs for more appropriate and respectful attitudes and ways, so that I am more in harmony with the wild, more at home there. But I must also admit, that I think most humans have probably not done any such self-sacrificing. If people continually go to the wild in the modern and disrespectful ways that they seem so proud of these days, it will not be long until there are no more wilds. All the bears will be raiding camps, and the racoons will be eating from our hands. Campers will continue thinking that biodegradable means they can wash their hair in the streams, and the wilds will become a campground, not wild anymore. Natural perhaps, but not wild. I have no ultimate need of nature, per se, I desire wilderness. Further, if I truly felt from your hastily thought-out and presumptuous response, that you honestly sought a truly philosophical discussion with me, I would be happy to correspond with you further on some deeper level, but as it seems, you do not, and so I do not. Thus I have no choice but to ignore you or argue semantics.
The only point I was making is that we as modern humans must change our attitudes and thus our ways concerning wilderness. It is a mistake to think you can be a part of wilderness if you seek to tame it.
Unlike the cancer that humans seem to be, humans have the ability to change their ways. They don't need to be eliminated by way of a false logic. They only need to be motivated to change for the betterment of the whole. Don't defend our ugliness and weakness. As a rural-suburban man who genuinely feels a love for wilderness, I believe I have enough sense that I can honestly say that when in the wild, I am a guest and that's all there is to it. I live at the edge of town, right next to the wilderness, but in town nonetheless, not in the wild forest as the animals do. Until such time as I live exclusively in the wilderness like the animals do, I will continue to be a guest when I am there. John Muir was very poetic and his words are a great catalyst for change. He and others like him seek that humans understand their great potential. We very easily deceive ourselves, and to think you are at home in the wilderness when you know that you are not, is folly, and is how people find out that they are in fact in a survival situation, and not at all at home.
If you really believe that you can subsist permanently in the wilderness, and that you require nothing that wilderness does not provide, that you truly are at home there, that its terms are your terms, that you are simply another animal in the ecosystem, then why don't you live there permanently? Why don't you raise your children there, and teach them the ways of the wildeness, instead of the ways of urbanization and globalization? The answer is probably because you long for HOME, or the weather turns, you HAVE to go back to work, etc. Unfortunately, as natural as it might or might not be for us humans to be as far removed from wilderness as we are; and this is debated by philosophers everyday; we humans are destructive, eliminative, and intrusive to wilderness. To say that wilderness is our home and yet that it is natural for us to, for lack of a better word, destroy, wilderness, is in the very least, a contradiction. There should be no doubt in your mind that this is true.
I don't want to argue semantics anymore.

I'm sure Jim meant very well, but he was obviously just not understanding well enough the philosophy that compelled me to say exactly what I had said. Language can be a tricky thing, and "a wily mistress." Like I said,...semantics.

God speed you on your journey my friend.