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#139076 - 07/09/08 01:19 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Russ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Thanks. I was afraid I was losing it...
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#139078 - 07/09/08 01:30 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Russ]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Russ
I thought that was magnetic deviation.

ETA: Magnetic declination is synonymous with variation.


I was taught that magnetic variation was due to the difference in magnetic and true north, and that changes with location not the vessel, while magnetic deviation is due to a vessel's own structure and magnetism.

For merchant mariners, Bowditch has always been the "Bible." See Chapter 6: http://www.irbs.com/bowditch/pdf/chapt06.pdf

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#139081 - 07/09/08 01:41 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Dan_McI]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
AFAIK that's correct. The wiki article describes it as "error induced in a compass by local magnetic fields" which would include the hull of the ship (the deviation of which in turn changes with ship's heading).

Then we can talk about navigator's balls wink
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#139082 - 07/09/08 01:44 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
I have had a long hard day, and am not really at the top of my game, but "huh"? How 'bout the guy on foot with a map and compass in say Washington state, versus another guy in Florida. Don't they have a different declination, based upon where on earth they are standing at that moment, in relation to true north???


They have a considerable Magnetic declination

Miami Magnetic declination = -5.7 degress West or 5.7 degrees East

Seattle Magnetic declination = 17.2 degrees West

The difference is 22.9 degrees.

To the casual navigator who assumes Mag North and True North (or Grid North with the associated grid convergence compensation) are the same will soon get lost. (A worse situation that being lost is a situation where someone is lost and that person thinks they aren't lost)

A simple 2000 metre bearing directly north (according to the map, assumming that Grid/True North convergence is zero) in the Seatle region will be 591 metres west and 89.4 Metres south from where they think they should be on the map after walking the 2000 metres north following their compass.

This is a quite a good website which explains the differences between Magnetic, True and Grid Norths.
http://www.threelittlemaids.co.uk/magdec/explain.html



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#139084 - 07/09/08 01:52 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Russ]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Russ
Then we can talk about navigator's balls wink


Other than quadrantal spheres, the real set of balls usually belong to the guys who have the con in close quarters.

A recently retired pilot I know (I think no one has taken more ships through Hell Gate over the past 30 years) told me that are person who is a pilot needs two things: common sense; and a set of balls. Too little of either can lead to problems. Too much of the latter can also lead to problems.

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#139086 - 07/09/08 01:56 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2211
Loc: NE Wisconsin
So ... if one train leaves Seattle at 8:00am local time headed magnetic east going a bazzilion miles per hour, and another train leaves Miami at 11:00am local time headed magnetic west going half of a gazzilion miles per hour ...

When will they meet?

This gives you some sense of how lost I usually felt in school. :-)

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#139087 - 07/09/08 02:04 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: KenK]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...When will they meet?..."

Not sure. But I know where they will meet. At the scene of the crash. And it will be a dandy...
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#139088 - 07/09/08 02:04 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Dan_McI]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
While I try to understand the declination and deviation concepts, I am primarily a short-distance land navigator who matches compass, GPS, and map to visible physical landmarks. That and looking back at my trail frequently has served me well so far.

At sea out of sight of land, or in deep woods where distant landmarks are not readily visible, for example, I would be in trouble with my current skills. My GPS and use of waypoints and built-in maps would help, but I can only hope I would have time to study-up before encountering the far-at-sea or deep-woods situations.

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#139091 - 07/09/08 02:32 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: dweste]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
In any case, once you realize you're lost, the best and most important thing to figure out is where you are, in most cases. Moving before you know where you are can put you into more trouble, on a boat or ship going a short distane in the wrong direction might run you aground. There are circumstances in which one might need to move before knowing where you were, but that should involve needing to get away from something else pretty fast.

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#139145 - 07/09/08 06:07 PM Re: Best practices when you realize you are lost? [Re: Susan]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
> I wonder if a dedicated parent really impressed on their youngster the
> importance of STOPPING the moment they thought they might be lost,
> it would carry over into adulthood?

I think stopping is the key. Sheesh, give people a chance to find you instead of leading them on a merry chase all over thor's creation.

Stop
Think
Observe
Plan

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