As I read through Doug's MARVELOUS 2003 SHOT show coverage and add items to my birthday wishlist, I'm reminded of the person who got me involved in survival as a child.

Across the street from me was a guy that I spent a lot of time with. A very nice man, he was a skilled trapper and hunter, carried tons of guns/binoculars/fishing equipment/knives/etc with him everywhere he went. However, as I got older and started thinking more about survival situations and hearing stories, I thought to myself, "if this guy ever got stranded and had to swim 3 miles, what would happen?"

You see, this guy was about 5'10" and 350 pounds. He had all the equipment and knowledge in the world, and was very "prepared" mentally.

Unfortunately, I think too many of us get caught up in having the neatest gadgets, the coolest tools, and being the most knowledgable in techniques. Perhaps many of us don't take into consideration that PHYSICAL FITNESS is probably THE most important survival skill after using your head. Those PSKs and Super Tools are going to be nothing more than corpse identification tools if you get caught in a situation that you can't handle physically.

Maybe some of you are skilled outdoorsmen, but things aren't as easy to do for you as they were when you were 25 or 30 (or whatever). Being out of shape doesn't mean that you weigh 350 pounds and you can't take a few steps without breathing heavily. Perhaps you haven't swam in a while and couldn't make a 3 mile swim if your life depended on it. Perhaps you couldn't make a 2 mile jog if you had to, or hike up a steep hill/mountain. Perhaps you're too heavy or bulky to climb a tree, or too weak to carry a heavy piece of equipment a few hundred yards to get it to a place where it would be useful. Perhaps we wouldn't be strong enough or quick enough to fight off another human or small predator.

ANYWAY, the point of my story is that while all the fun is in hording up on these neat PSKs and Super Tools and learning Trapping/Survival sklls, I hope that when the time comes most of you are physically fit enough to put them to use effectively, or phsically fit enough to get to a place where you can actually put them to use.

This is my newbie attempt to bring something to the board that I thought was VERY important and also VERY overlooked in the survival "community". I hope at least one person that reads it takes it to heart! Get out and do yourself a favor and give yourself a great chance to survive if you're ever in a situation that requires a ton of physical labor.

You are making a valid statement here. It is very important to keep fit and be prepared physically to face nature’s obstacles. Yet there has to be a moderation in fitness preparation and conditioning. Gyms out there appeal to masses with pictures of O% fat muscle defined bodies. Is this a way? I don’t think so. So what that you can bench press 300 lbs 10 times when I can bench press 150 lbs 50 times. So what that somebody can run 2 miles in 12 minutes but can't walk more that 1 hour at the time? Everything you do is connected. In survival situation you be walking, running, swimming, threading water, climbing, etc, etc… That’s the activities you should focus upon. Walk a lot… Bike… Get in shape with activities that you can use. But also you can be the fittest person on the planet yet without knowledge how to do something you wouldn't get very far. I think that survival is a combination of physical fitness, stamina, mental toughness and knowledge how to do/use/prepare things.

Matt

Very great points. I don't think simply being a Gold's Gym workout warrior is very important, and I wasn't trying to convey that message in my post.

I will say that I think in most EVERY survival situation, some degree of physical fitness is going to be required. I will also say that, except for a few examples, a fit, strong, well-prepared body can overcome a complete lack of tools or equipment (although it might not be as easy or fun) in one way or another.

The point is, as you mentioned, that it all goes hand-in-hand. Where it stacks on the priority list exactly is debatable, but I don't think it's debatable that it should be up there pretty high.

I read on one survival school website (I think it was the BOSS website) that they often had superfit athletes try their survival program and drop out, while 'less perfect' individuals persevered and prospered. They suggested that "superfit" students were used to eating like pro athletes, and simply couldn't handle being reduced to survival rations (sometimes less than a third of their normal caloric intake).

Must remember that "fit" means "well adapted for the environment", not necessarily "I can outrun a cheetah and bench-press an elephant" <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe we shouldn't confuse being fit with being on the cover of "BIG ARMS R US" or the "Sports Illustrated" swimsuit issue. If we were to define "fit" as having a body that can properly function under stress then I would argue that a person of normal proportion with a little body fat would be more fit than an underwear model in a survival situation, assuming that they were active. They say that an average person from the industrial countries carries around about three weeks of food on him. I don't know about you guys, but I may be carring around a fourth. The model will be colder than me and have less fuel to work on. I think that it would be a bad idea to avoid the gym. Strength is a great ally whether you are walking out of the Frank Church, or putting up a lamp in your kitchen.

I believe the quote from BOSS that was mentioned refered to having marathon runners and tri-athaletes who trained for the course on 5000 calorie diets, fall apart when the tried to function on 1500 or fewer calories.

I look at all the old farts (like fought in WWII, old) that I know. The ones that are still moving around are the ones that were putting up fence in their 80's. They all have bellies, but damn they're fit.
Just my end of the day rant,
Biscuits

You've pretty much made the point I was hoping to see made, but I would like to add a little more.

Don't forget the whole evolutionary importance of fat. Fat is your body's way of storing energy up for "famine" during periods of "feast". You naturally get stronger (yes stamina is different) as you plump up... just think about the fact that the 350 lb guy leg presses 350 lbs every time he stands up! Fat is also an insulator, the way it should work is you build up fat during the summer and fall when food is abundant, then use that fat to stay warm and as a food supplement during the winter months. Also, as you loose the weight, your stamina increases because you have all this physical strength on a much lighter frame... remember all those commercials where people talk about how their "energy level" has gone up after loosing weight. You bet it has, that's so you can get out there on the Serengeti plains and run down that gazelle in the spring before all your energy stores are depleted!

Our problem is that industrialization has made every month a "feast" month and famine doesn't exist! So we put on the fat and never work if off... which then leads to medical problems down the road.

So here's my point, some fat is not necessarily bad... especially in most survival scenarios where food is going to be scarce. Don't mistake the madison avenue ideal of being a walking bag of bones with actually being healthy. Oh yeah, and the weightlifters, that's just an example of a different extreme. What's the point in having great physical strength when that isn't required for your everyday needs, like stalking a gazelle? Muscles require energy... you'll have to consume many more calories just to maintain that, and what is the benefit in a survival situation? Is our weightlifter friend gonna go wrestle a grizzly or what?

None of this is to justify being overweight and out of shape, but do understand why things work the way they do from the evolutionary (and by definition, survival) aspect. Balance is the key, not too fat and not too thin. And yes, we probably do focus on gadgets too much, what makes man successful is his ability to think and adapt. Understand why/how things work the way they do (and that includes your body), and you'll be able to deal with the bad times when they do come. The tools will always be ancillaries to THAT!

Great thread start! I like things to be quantifiable and measurable so that they become attainable. So... How about some bench-marks

Basic capabilities:

Climbing - trees and rocks
Swiming
Walking
Running
Lifting
Carrying
Fighting

Basic Strength bench marks

Strong enough to lift self with arms atleast 10 times (this should cover climbing) - chin-ups and push-ups

Strong enough to lift and carry whatever you consider a 3 day BOB for 3 days on the move quickly

Ability to run 5 miles

Ability to swim 3 miles

Ability to hold off proportional attacks in hand-2-hand combat. This isn't the 90# lightweight fighting the 250# line-backer but the 90#'er against similarly fit 90#'er. Other fight situations need to be met with tools such as stealth, chemicals, edged weapons or firearms (probably in that order).

This is not a very high mark but it will be a decent start on bing fit enough to handle most situations.

If you are already severly obese or have cardiac or pulmonary situations that make this set of goals un-attainable then you need to correct them as far as possible and accept the need for some serious amount of gear - O2 tanks, batteries for your'e pacemaker and the surgeon needed to replace them etc...

You just disqualified 3/4 of males living in NYC, half NYPD and 10% of US Armed Forces. Right on and I like your standards. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Matt

MiniMe,

I like this approach to responding to a threat from a bigger individual, but perhaps we should eliminate edged weapons from the list.

As I understand it, and I am by no means an expert, fighting effectively with knives requires a great deal of skill. Add to that the necessary close range of blades and the situation could very quickly turn downhill.

I suppose including machetes, tomahawks, hatchets, etc. in the edged weapon category could eliminate some of the disadvantages, but even still....

Just my $.02.

~Wesley

I'm not a weight lifter, and I do see (somewhat) the point you were trying to make. However, "survival" may rely on deterrance to some extent, and in that case, the weight lifter has the advantage. Less likely to get attacked or even need to use the muscle.

He is less likely to be attacked at the beginning of the disaster. But what after a few days, or weeks? He's a little more lethargic than others due to lack of nutrition. Should you plan to survive for just a few days or for the "long haul"?

And of course, this ignores the use of guile and weapons, possible cooperation and communication of his enemies... these are the things that humans excel at.

Being strong has obvious advantages, but people don't always stop to think about the disadvantages. Everything is a trade off of one thing vs. another. 5% body fat sucks if you're in the Donner party starving, even if you can lift a truck over your head!

One additional bit of physical training that I didn't see anyone mention but might be more valuable than any of the other types: stretching. You might be 'out of shape' but if you stretch regularly, you are far less likely to injure yourself seriously if put in a physically demanding survival-type situation.

Personally, I used to be a competitive triathlete, Master's open water swimmer and mountain bike racer. I could literally exercise all day and get up and do it all over again.

Now, 5 years and one 16 month old new baby later at age 35, I'm pretty much totally out of shape and about 15 lbs heavier than my former 'fighting weight' (depressingly, that's AFTER losing the swimming and cycling muscle mass). But because I still stretch, I know I can easily swim 2 miles, hop on my mountain bike for 3 hours, kayak for 4 hours and even walk around almost all day for two days straight with few problems except somewhat sore muscles for the next couple days. I know I can do all these things because I've done them and without any joint injuries which might prove lethal in a 'survival' situation.

Also two types of very important physical strength that I didn't see mentioned are 'core body' and grip strength. If you do a minimum amount of exercise to keep your stomach, obliques and back muscles strong, you are also far less likely to get debilitatingly hurt than if you don't. 'Throwing your back out' twenty miles from nowhere just isn't an option!

Grip strength should be self-explanatory but is highly underrated. I know I need to work on it more. I wouldn't be able to hang on for very long if my life depended on it, certainly not like when I used to rock climb back around college.

That's the beauty of this particular thread. Strength without skill is as useless as tools without skill. But there should be a defineable level of ability that is attainable and sufficient for the average individual to survive in a physical sense. I would think that you could become sufficiently skilled for the knife to be an assett rather than an opportunity for the assailant to become armed without having to become an expert knife fighter.

Using a firearm is no unskilled task either.

Being able to lift yourself vertically with your arms is a necessary precursor to being able to climb a cliff but is, by no means, the whole of the story. There is really quite a lot of skill in being able to scramble up a moderate sized boulder that can only be gained by actually trying it. If you haven't then you might being risking alot in a survival scenario.


Certainly, it makes as little sense to try to engage in a knife fight without some training than to drop yourself into the middle of a jungle with your buddy's PSK and not even the knowledge to recognize wire saw from snare wire or what either is in there for. Gear will not substitute for knowledge, Knowledge and gear will not substitute for strength, strength alone is useless if not dangerous. As a triad, Strength, Knowledge and Gear leads to comfort. With only Strength and some ability to reason Knowledge and Gear can be generated. With Knowledge and Gear you may be comfortable for a while as you strengthen your-self (if you last that long). With Knowledge only you may be dead quickly. With sufficient Gear you will be fine for as long as your gear doesn't need fuel or repair. The Genset will keep the fridge running and the beer tap is pneumatic so ..... <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First off this is an excellent thread.

Next, I think that everyone has made valid points. I'd like to add that weight lifting alone does NOT transform you into Mr. Adonis that you see gracing the cover of magazines. These people follow strict diets, take truckloads of supplements, and often get a little pharmacy help. Going to the gym for 30-60 mins 3 times a week will not produce that kind of physique. Almost everyone can benefit from resistance training.

On the other hand... why do you think that after 200 years the military still does basic calisthenics? Jumping jacks (side straddle hop), pushups, sit-ups, pull-ups flutter kicks, jogging and sprinting. Why doesn't the military have everyone in the gym trying to press 300 lbs? Because these are the basic exercises that help you to be a soldier (a survivor). They help you to carry your rucksack for miles, lift mortar rounds, jump in a trench and shoot.

I like your standards too, and I am glad that we finally have a thread about physical fitness, clearly an important part of survival.

I think, however, that one might look at the standards and conclude "well, I can do ten pull ups - I can go out and climb."

In actual fact, arm strength (pullup style) is not that critical in rock climbing or mountaineering, while leg and core strength, along with balance, are far more necessary. Many climbing techniques are designed to conserve arm strength - hand and foot jambs, arm locks - while others are designed to ascend in ways that are not intuitively obvious (lay backs). When it comes down to it, most climbers agree that climbing is predominately mental - finding the route, and then perceiving a sequence of holds that will enable you to cover the terrain.

It boils down to - the best conditioning for climbing is to climb - gym work is only an adjunct to acquiring the techniques and stamina, along with the knowledge, to climb. Funny, it all seems to come back to the head.

All of this gives us a lovely excuse to not mow the lawn - "Honey, I have to do some survivial training, sorry..."

My neice is about to marry a reserve SEAL; she says they seem to have a wonderful time in their training. I believe he was out skiing this weekend. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Again, while running will certainly give you aierobic fitness, running in town is not the same as hiking out in the woods - train for hiking by hiking.

I totally agree with you about the skill involved in climbing. AFAIK, EMS and REI both provide decent, if not excellent, training in climbing. Scrambling over some boulders in the local park will provide a basic concepts for the totally uninitiated. I first learned to climb on the boulders in Central Park NYC. My mentor was an expreineced climber with several solo summits world wide under his belt. The instructor can and should teach the rope techniques and basic moves, the rock will teach the rest. Only the rock can teach the rest - this is one of those situations where you just have to get out there. OTOH, I wouldn't want to even try to start climbing without the basic strength levels. There will be times when you have to pull yourself up with your arms after having climbed for 100 ft already. If you can't even do one chin-up or pull-up you are stuck 100 ft up with no way up and no good way down, exhausted and alone. (not good). As you correctly point out, if you have the head for it climbing isn't so-much different than stair climbing, you stand on your feet, bend your knees and step up to the next hold. Your hands stabilize and occasionally grip but unless you are doing extensive free-rope work you will be climbing on your legs not your arms. I emphasized the upper body in my earlier post because many could count on having the requisit leg strength simply because they carry themselves around all day, OTOH very few can actually pull themselves up even once.

BTW, if you are ball or pear shaped there is little chance that you could actually get your center of gravity sufficiently close to the rock to even consider safely climbing regardless of strength. Picture the incredibly strong suomo wrestler trying to climb a vertical rock face. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Not mowing the lawn? How about throwing away that electric/gas lawnmower and picking up $5 rusty manual one? Make a workout everywhere you go. I hate gyms. I hate empty pumping and reps. I think I have ADD and can't concentrate on one task for too long (or maybe I'm just Polish). You don't have to be "one with the nature" to do things out there. Like I said, convert your everyday activities into workouts. Take a walk. Clean up your yard. Get off one stop early. Stand on the train and if you give up your seat for a lady for either fitness reasons or manners you get some browny points and a possible date <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. If you have a dog that's even better, he will love you even more. Get a project to do outside. Forget the car for a week. It doesn't have to be a radical change in your life but one little thing at the time. After few months maybe you won't be able to run a marathon but you will feel better, be healthier and stronger. You can't go wrong when it comes to fitness it's all benefits but remember everything in moderation. How about taking your gadgets out for a walk? Go to the park, find a piece of wood and make a spoon. Thinking your psk is waterproof or able to float? Test it out on the lake or river instead of kitchen sink.

Matt

Absolutely! And while you're at it, look out for the folks in the neighborhood. If you make a regular practice of walking around in your neighborhood, on your way to work, to the store, etc, take notice of what is happening in your area. Who drives what types of cars, who rides the train regularly, is there an abandoned home or building that is showing sudden signs of activity? What is that activity and who is responsible for it? Is there an abandoned vehicle? Is someone's door left open in the winter? Any of these things could go un-noticed if you don't notice them. Each of these things can be important in noticing and averting potential disasters.

Survival of the community is in the hands of all members of the community. If you don't know what is going on, how will you know when something bad is going on? Information is king once again.

We did get a rsuty one-frtom a car bootsale-it is bloody hard work and definetley makes you break into a sweat!

Mark

I've had some experiences lately that prompted me to post a similar thread. Luckily I used the search function first!

My wife and I have always maintained a good baseline of physical fitness. We have spent all of our years together hiking, rock climbing, and working hard in the gym during the week to support those weekend/holiday adventures and enhance our general health.

Lately we've been training extra-hard & specific for our latest planned adventure: a rim-to-rim hike of the Grand Canyon. We're going to do it in a day, but don't tell the nannies at the National Park Service.

For months we've been cranking out many hours & miles on steep trails, and it has occured to me many times: "I would not want to be out of shape & then get thrown into a survival situation".

Look at the survival stories on Doug's main site (all excellent material, BTW). Read about the people swimming, on foot, etc. In every conceivable case, being in reasonably good physical shape will help you, not hurt you.

I have to take issue with some of the above replies to the original post. I see people saying "well, being Mr. Universe could actually hurt you... all that bulk... so what if you can lift 300#... Donner Pass... blah blah blah.

You know what? The original poster never said a thing about looking like Swarzenegger. Plus, in my experience the people most concerned about the detriments of exercise are the ones MOST in need of it! They get smug about not being overly muscular... and ignore their own shortcomings.

We all agree that the mental side (knowledge, skill, attitude) is the primary survival tool. But once you've got that base covered, the fit survivor will have a better time of the ordeal. It's a well-proven fact that good physical condition ENHANCES your mental state and ability to deal with stress, both psychological and physiological.

As with most things in life, it's wise to avoid extremes. Fitness is no different. But I guarantee you this: if you persist in being a couch potato while you "harumph!" at the reasonably fit people, you will be the loser when the balloon goes up.

Why do I hear the footsteps of Aron Ralston? This site promotes common sense and planning. A fully staffed crew has done such an endurance or timed hike, with the inevitable injuries and illness. The Canyon is a place of beauty and wonder. It also doesn't cut any slack to anyone; indian,desert rat,park ranger or tourist. Why don't you read Edward Abbey's Desert Solitaire, The Deadman at Grandview point. Then buy a flora and fauna guide to the Grand Canyon, beer, bologna and bread and really enjoy it <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Whoa, Chris. Don't make assumptions about people's abilities. You have no clue as to the extent of our experience, preparation, or fitness levels. If you had done your Canyon research properly, you would know that going rim-to-rim on a non-summer day is quite common and uneventful for experienced, prepared, and fit people. That you would think only "fully staffed crews" can do the hike shows that you are a bit out of the loop on this issue.

Try this link, for example http://www.toddshikingguide.com/Hikes/Arizona/GrandCanyon/Canyon2.htm BTW, I have been in contact with the author of this report and have become familiar with his background & abilities in relation to the hike he did.

The "Aron Ralston" comment was uncalled for, especially in this community.

"We're preparing to do it in a day,but don't tell the nannies at the National Park Service." Comments like this automatically illicit red flags. If you get in trouble,and people do, who is coming to help? It wont be the Coast Guard. We have people from many backgrounds, age groups and abilities read the forums. A very real legal and moral minefield are the " I'm 15 years old and want to live on a desert island" posts. Announcing your adventure with a potshot at the local authorities, no review of established safety measures( trip itinerary left with friends, gear list, known dangers) is dangerous. You may be well prepared. But what of the kid in AZ who reads your posts and thinks " wow, I 'm going to do that" goes on a hot summer weekend and drops dead of sunstroke? My remarks are no more personal than the indifference of the Canyon. I've been down it by foot, a season on mule and well remember the lumpy black bags carried by "nannies."

We all don’t share the same SEAL gene pool, and admittedly couch potatoes have equal opportunity to get into trouble, as follows:
While canoeing N. Georgian Bay following the “Voyageur “ routes, I had made overnight camp at a small island. That night, a fierce rainstorm came and filled my canoe with water. The weight of that water filled canoe pulled out my anchored ropes and sent it drifting beyond my visual sight.
The next morning, I awoke to find my canoe gone and me stranded on this rock farm. It was mid summer and the waters of Georgian Bay are c o l d.
Now, if I was of physical shape, could I be able to swim for self rescue ? What were my options ?

I'm wondering if anyone who gets in trouble in The Canyon would have the audacity to call an NPS ranger "nanny" as their sorry butt was getting helicoptered to safety? I suspect not ...

I considered it "thread hijacking" to give a full description (safety steps, itineraries, hazard list, etc) of our trip when replying to the topic of fitness. I didn't realize I needed to post a legal disclaimer to stay on-topic on this board. I still maintain that your "Aron Ralston" jab was very inappropriate, especially in light of this community's interests.

I used the term "nannies" because the NPS, like many other segments of our government, has decided to cater to the least common denominator of visitors in the NPS' attitude & communications. Stupid people get themselves killed all the time, and the NPS acts like all park visitors are the same. The vast, vast majority of "Canyon casualties" are flagrantly unprepared, unfit tourons (tourist + moron) who have been known to hike in flipflops & jeans, carrying a 0.5L soda bottle, trying to get to the Colorado river. I don't appreciate being lumped in with that crowd by the NPS.

We are hiking the heavily-patrolled corridor trails and we have friends who know our plans and are expecting a check-in call at the end of our day. Believe me, we have those bases covered.

I have hiked into the Canyon from both rims in the past, in summer, solo. The first time was a short 10 mile jaunt, the next one a more involved 20 mile day. I can hump a load all day like you wouldn't freaking believe. My wife is in even better aerobic shape than me. I am well acquainted with the indifference of the Canyon. Frankly, climbing El Capitan back in '99 was a lot scarier... and it would have been a lot harder to get rescued.

If a kid in AZ reads my post and tries to hike the Canyon unprepared... oh jeez, what a can of worms! We'd better lock up the entire Internet and save the children.

So after eating up all this bandwidth dealing with Chris' concerns, I'll reiterate my original point to our group then I'll leave the thread alone: "I think being in reasonable physical shape would be a real asset in a survival situation".

Hey Glock,

Try not to be too defensive. I think the problem is that Chris and others in the SAR biz have seen countless ninnies touting their skills and then later either getting themselves killed foolishly or needing to be bailed out, thereby risking the lives of the SAR team. Personally, I have no reason to doubt that you have the skills, experience and physical abilities that you claim you do. I think it is great that we have that much more experience on the forum.

Just understand that because of the impersonal nature of the forum, it is sometimes difficult to separate the bogus from the genuine. It is also easy to make the wrong first impression as Chris pointed out. As a libertarian I appreciate your disgust with government agencies, but realize that some of the folks here either are or work with people in that business, who have little to no say in the overall policies of the departments. They are just doing their jobs trying to save the morons who get themselves in trouble.

In short, your post would probably have been better received had you not made the nannies remark (however correct it may or may not be) and Chris probably knee-jerked a bit with the Aron Ralston remark. No biggie. Things like that happen on a forum.

As to your original point about being in good physical condition, I absolutely agree with you. Although some fat reserve can come in pretty handy in a prolonged lack of food situation, good fitness will allow your body to convert what resources you have more efficiently into energy that can be vital to survival. Being able to climb a rock face or hike many miles can come in really handy as well.

Just as sitting in front of the computer reading about method of starting a fire isn't as effective as actually going out and practicing it, many other survival skills will suffer if you don't have the fitness to practice them.

I wonder how many of the heat exhaustion victims treated by our list members during the recent blackouts were what could be classified as unfit? I imagine that folks that were in shape made out alot better than the couch potatos when it came to walking out of the city in the heat. Of course, the really smart ones had bikes (sorry, had to get that in there <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

Best of luck on your canyon hike. Wish I had the chance to go...

Greg

OK, I'll be the first here to admit I'm in HORRID shape. Yep. I'm trying to do something about it, and I'm slowly getting there, but it's going to take time

During the blackout, I walked. Averaged 2.5+ MPH with my BOB for the first 4.6 miles, and then managed to promote a lift. I would have walked all 15 miles home, but it would have been more of a bear than I wanted. Getting in shape was item one in my personal After Action Report. I got a BUNCH more serious on my diet (yes, diet - exercise won't do it alone in my condidtion), and I've walked a mile or 2 every day since then

I'm certainly not in the best shape but am always trying to improve. But don't completely dis gear <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The situation last week was a good example. No matter how fit you are you can't produce light in a dark subway without some soft of gear:)