I've heard references recently to bug out stashes and bug out property. These are things that I would never consider exploring because I just don't have the resources available to me at the moment nor does the concept really interest me...but that concept got me to thinking about some things while posting in my other thread about BOB concepts.

While I was thinking about that BOB, many items I own were left out. As I did more planning I wanted to include them but my desire to keep things fast and light won out. Then I thought: "What if the plan isn't to get as far away as possible? What if the plan is to get a little ways off then just wait out the 'storm'?". Then things are different and my BOB isn't nearly as suitable as I'd planned it to be. In the concept above I would be essentially moving away (by whatever means is appropriate...which could be on foot) and then setting up a base camp of sorts. The items I'm purposely leaving out of the fast and light pack would be key items in this type of situation all of a sudden.

Do any of you plan for this? If so do you have a different BOB for such an occation? I could put together a whole seperate pack of goodies if a base camp were the plan. Or is that even a sound concept to begin with? Am I better off just keeping moving (who's to say how safe a distance is safe?)?

Also if so, what sorts of things are in it which might be different than a 'regular' BOB? Is it packable by foot or reserved for a vehicular bug out?

I think I see my next 'exercise' forming but if it's a silly idea to begin with let me know now before I get carried away!

This is a great Idea!! I have never thought of this!

Not a silly idea at all. I try to stay flexible so I keep a couple of full-sized packs with "everything but the kitchen sink", including bags and tent, some water and enough food for 96 plus hours. This is basically (excet for a larger supply of stored water) my bug-in kit packed away ready to travel. But I also keep a light pack that will be for traveling fast with minimum requirements.

I also have three bug out plans. Since I would be evacuating from NYC, auto is the least likely scenario. Boat is second, and on foot/bicycle to our summer house 75 miles north is also a doable option.

This would be an excellent excercise, since all my plans need a lot of refinement.

Depending on the typical disasters in your locale, just bugging out a matter of miles might be the typical scenario for many so the base camp idea is a sound one. I don't live in hurricane country, where you might need to travel quite a distance to escape the immediate danger zone. For flooding, it might not be very far at all to higher ground. Or in my neck of the woods, wildfires might mean just driving a mile or two to get away from danger.

I still have this image in my mind of visiting a friend in West Hollywood, smack in the middle or dense, urban territory, and looking down the street at a wildfire raging just a mile or so away on a low hill. Big flames and smoke were shooting up (luckily no wind, so just straight up) into the air. Everyone else was pretty much just carrying on as usual, driving around and walking along the sidewalk. I guess we were all safe even so close to the fire, so just getting a mile away was enough in this particular case. With the wildfires we had last fall, it was often the same thing--just drive a few miles away and sit in some parking lot until they let you back in.

I guess many of these recent flood victims are in a similar situation. They might not have had to go far, but they could be stuck for days in parking lots waiting until they can get back to their homes.

Well, I'm focussing on a vehicle based bug out, which I'm not sure you're really as interested in as much as walking out, so I'd pick more stuff to haul than you probably.

last time we had fires, I just went to the beach...I felt pretty safe there and had a great time...You sat in a parking lot?? And you could've been at the beach?? Crazy person!

Heh-heh, no I didn't have to evacuate from the wildfires. Maybe I should've, though, and hung out at the beach. That smoke got pretty darn thick on some days where I was. It's spooky when it's pretty dark outside at midday because the sun is blotted out by the smoke.

Do you have kids? I ask because I have 4 under the age of 5 (I know, big surprise for someone from Utah!), and I find it hard to have enough diapers, clothes, entertainment items (3 days with no toys and mom and dad will be insane), etc. I've thought about rubbermaid tubs to carry everything in, but that would pretty much force me to drive right to a base camp and stay there. I can't do packs for them as they are too small to carry anything other than a few toys. My only solution so far has been hope to drive there or have 2 insanely heavy packs for me and DW to carry. Hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but any ideas would be appreciated!

Just out of curiosity, what's the likelihood of you having to bug out to a tent in the woods versus a hotel in another town?

My family loves to camp and is good at it, but in 99% of the bug-out situations I can imagine we are either heading to a hotel or the home of a friend/family member. Our BOBs are set up accordingly.

Sidenote: we do have emergency shelter/food/water/cooking gear in both vehicles, but that's for very short term situations.

-Blast

Yeah arney, the beach winds pretty much get rid of some of the smoke, when i was driving to school during the fires, we went through Del Mar and it had mega high winds and was totally dark (at mid-day) and I thought that that is what the end of the world would be like, did I mention there were no people? Still_Alive, maybe you could just have a small pack of toys and stuff that goes with however you carry your kids (Stroller or what not) it would be useful to know how you plan on carrieng them along...

MY BOB is set up to let me grab it and go forage. It lacks water, but if I cna find water, I should be set for a good number of days, without relying on anything else. Food will become a concern, soon enough, but my BOB should allow me to try to obtain some food. But, the BOB is a just a bag, a bag for me to grab and go RIGHT NOW or as soon as I can get to it. (My EDC I envision as a really poor BOB, to keep me going until I get to my BOB or to allow me to forego getting it, if need be.)

If I have time, i.e. if the hurricane is coming to NYC and I get an hour to decide whether to leave or not, then I can pack the car and take more things. And trust me, I plan on it. I plan on taking a heck of a lot more food and water, and some more comfort items and clothes. But all that will not take me long to get together. Much of it is already in the in apt. cache.

As with Blast, my plans are to head to a hotel or a home at which I am welcome (Hi Mom and Dad). My BOB is really for when I am not yet there. If I can get there, much of it might be redundant.

The plans get more complicated with children. For those 3-5, then can carry something. Let them carry some toys. Put toys in a small bag, for in case, and let them stay there. Make that bag, the special place for each of them to keep the favorite toys. If you kids are carrying their entertainment, then they are helping big time. If it comes time to bug, then make it part of an adventure. It worked well for the character in "Life if Beautiful." Don't forget also, an empty box is a great toy. Kids have imagination, esp. when younger. Age stifles imagination.

Cool, bugging out from NYC - one of my favorite subjects.

Do you actually have a dedicated boat for this purpose, or are you a recreational boater on a regular basis.

I have plenty of places to go if we need to leave the city, but I honestly can't think of how I could get my wife and two kids (ages 2 and three weeks) to the places. A boat seems like one of the few that would be reliable, though iffy in a hurricane-type situation.

As noted above, I have two young children to worry about. I think a nomadic existance would not be feasable. We'd need to get somewhere where we could set ourselves up for the duration. Most likley, one of three properties in the catskills owned by family and close friends.

Thanks, I'll do this.

That's a fantastic point and one I completely overlooked. Though I would likely overlook at at the time too and it's likely I wouldn't be able to get a room hehehe.

In my mind driving to the next town isn't bugging out...but I guess by definition it is. For me it's leaving when it's not so easy to leave (traffic, floods, collapsed bridges, civil unrest, quarantine, etc).

As I read my original scenario I realize that I've described what some might consider a nice hiking trip...with that in mind the gear would be similar I think. Not nearly as complex as I'm making it out to be in that context until you throw in the variable of how long will you need to/want to sit there.

I have some nightmares about leaving NYC. One of my big fears is what if all the worst cases scenarios about Cumbre Vieja are true. What if a huge mountain really does slide off the Canary Islands and into the Atlantic? In my thinking, this is one of the worst scenarios for NYC. Predictions have us underwater in 7 or so hours. The boat is probably not going to help you, unless you really can get it into Long Island Sound or the Atlantic. Bugging out, tough by any method, but cars may not get you far enough, fast enough and without running empty. Long Island simply may be awash, almost all of it.

So, my way to go is train. If the announcement has just come out, and the mountain is now in the sea. MetroNorth, here I come, NOW. Cram me into the first train I can get on the Harlem (preferably) or Hudson lines, and I am off. I'll get out North of White Plains. If I get forced into a Hudson Line train, I want to stay on until Garrison. Peekskill might be OK, but Indian Point is right there.

A boat can work, but if you are heading North, then you have really few places to stop for quite a long way, if you want to avoid people or camp for a night. You can probbaly stop on the Jersey shore from about the GWB to a few miles below the Tappan Zee, but you will be right on the river. You are not likely to scale the Pallisades. After that, you need to get close to Bear Mountain before you can stop again without meeting people or to camp. Once past Bear Mountain, your options get better. Bannerman's Island south of Newburgh might be a secure spot for a while. It's big, popular to visit for kayakers, etc., but won't get many people. From Newburgh, you are about 20-30 miles or so from your spot 75 miles north of the City. Kingston is 80 miles up from the Battery. There is an Island jsut south of Kingston in the middle of the river.

If you want to head up the East River, timing is everything, unless you have a motor. A small motor vessel can make it up the river at any time, jsut be careful with traffic between the 59th St. Bridge and until you are past the Triboro Bridge. Without a motor, you are only moving with the tide. 4-5 knots of current can take you pretty far during a 5-6 hour tide. You might be able to take a break at North or South Brothers Islands, althought they are close to Rikers. From there, the next relatively uninhabited Island is Harts Island, the last part of NYC, and where Potter's Field is located. Then you are in the Sound.

I heard yesterday about a hurricane that passed over the Hudson River in 1960 or 1961. The U.S.C.G. sent boats north to get out of the way. Hurricane models were not so good about predicting paths, and when the boats got to Tarrytown, the storm was on the boats, with ten foot seas. I was told it was tough keeping the boats off the Tappan Zee Bridge, according to what one of the then Quartermasters told me last night.

Bugging in is a much better option, and transportation stinks. But if you might want to leave, leave ASAP.

As I got it off track, back on.

Isn't the idea that we should be prepared to be nomadic with the stuff that we are capable of moving? But as prepared as we might be to do that, shouldn't we seek to become stable and set up a new home for ourselves, for as long as it needed?

Being nomadic makes sense if you are moving on to use resources in a new area, after they are no longer available in a former location. If you need to follow the herds of bison, or any food, or better weather, than you need to do it.

But don't most of us we have homes that are solid, good shelters and not capable of moving. Don't most of us have more clothes than we can carry, nevermind adding food, etc. to it. Isn't the general trend of humanity to set up a permanent residences and become part of a community? If you find all you need to survive in one location, why leave it?

Finally, aren't those who live a nomadic lifestyle people who have learned and been taught how to do so most of their lives? I think if I was asked to return to and live a nomadic life, whether as a reindeer herder in the North, follwoing the herds of bison, or packing it on a camel across the desert, that I would only make it if someone who lived that way already took me and taught me how to live that life.

Much of what is done here is planning to achieve self-sufficiency. This crowd does not seem to plan on waiting for walmart or fema to provide the survival wherewithal, or to look for refugee camps.That seems to require that we plan to be self-sufficient for a while, sheltering in place. Alternatively, if we plan to bug-out, we need to have a destination, or several destinations. Importantly, the folks at the destination have to be willing to receive us-otherwise, it is not a bug-out plan, it is an invasion plan.
Being nomadic sounds a lot like being a refugee or an invader, since our new nomads will be practicing their skills in other folks back yards. One could plan for a defense in depth approach, with supply caches, vacation homes, friends and relatives at varying distances and directions from home. Survival planning is then better defined-you pack whatever you need to get to the next waypoint. This requires some resources-money if the cache is going to be a self-storage facility, or friends and relatives willing to receive you. The alternative is to think about heading north into the Catskills or Adirondacks to live like Jeremiah Johnson. I spent most of my life in the Adirondacks, and many folks up there have little interest in receiving refugees/strangers/nomads from the big apple in the event of catastrophe. Some communities near New Orleans established defensive perimeters to repel refugees after Katrina. I fear that the performance of my former neighbors would be similar in some, perhaps many, cases.

Modularizing your BOB stuff might be helpful. Its a little more prep work but it would allow you to re-adjust your gear in less time depending on the scenario.

A business associate of mine who has a similar store in a different town - still in the Sierra Foothills recently found out first hand what happens when things go ugly quick.

His community had a large forest fire brake out causing the evacuation of the town. He could not believe how fast the community broke down. All routes out of town were grid lock, all local gas stations ran out of gas within a day, vehicles ran out of gas on the road further backing up traffic - and cars, trucks, rv's etc were littering the side of the road where ever they ran out of gas.

He is now quickly realizing why everyone should have a 72 - 96 hour BOB and ample gas reserves.

He also realized how timing is everything - had he chose to go at the early end of the fire starting he could have been well away from the gridlock by the time the masses decided it was time to leave. As it was, he was very lucky. He was stuck with little supplies, 1/2 a tank of gas, and no way out of town. Winds died down, humidity went up, and the fire was 85% contained yesterday. His home was saved, his business too.

He is now looking to become prepared - and with a nudge from me, he will hopefully be a member of this site soon.

In regards to Bugging Out of New York City, I have to add some comments for all New Yorkers to consider:

1) The NYC Evacuation Plan from the late 70's and early 80's (I left in 1981), was an impossible plan designed to evacuate the City in 24 hrs before an expected ICBM attack.

2) Of all of the ways and means to leave the City, using your own boat is the most viable and would be the quickest for an escape and if it has quarters onboard, you've your own motel room/camper with you.

3) If the vessel is large enough for Coastal Waters, your best defense in case of a Tsunami Warning (7 hrs) would be to set sail immediately to a point a few miles east of Ambrose light (just east of the Continental Shelf) which will have you avoiding "the wave".

4) After the Tsunami Wave has passed, you could then proceed northward to enter the Long Island Sound from the East and then proceed slowly to some of the ports along either shore to find a sheltered cove or bay to anchor out in for a few days to let outside help arrive in the area. OR...

5) "Mill about smartly" for approx 24 hours off shore before proceeding up the Hudson River to any location from Poughkeepsie to Albany. Poughkeepsie is the dividing point between the Hudson River outflow and the Tidal forces (Poughkeepsie is the highest point of tidal influences). Anchoring out of the way (just below the lower point) at West Point might be the perfect place to await for outside resources/help to arrive before the time has arrived to try going back home.

6) Being at West Point (or Saugerties) would get you access to clean drinking water, emergency rations, and other gov't resources. I mention Saugerties because there is a small USCG ANT Team stationed there. Port Hudson is another good destination to consider as to where to stop/dock afterwards.

7) If you anchor out, your security considerations would be greatly simplified. This works even better if you have a small raft or dingy to travel from ship to shore and return.

8) With a boat, you can also, basically, relocate to another location to make a home either by sailing north to Lake Champlain, west to the Great Lakes via the Erie Canal, or back to the coast to head north or south. The coastal routes will surely provide only ports that have also been wiped out, whereas by heading west, you can get to unaffected areas and even get access to the Mississippi River via the Chicago Sanitation Canal and Illinois River.

9) If you put in a little thought, resources, and elbow grease; then your boat can be capable of radio (VHF-FM, AM, FM, XM/Sirius), cellphone, T.V, and internet access.

10) Summary:
I think having a boat with a cabin will provide the best Bug Out means from NYC.

A sailboat would be the most versatile. You would need to know how to sail to maximize it's endurance.

IMO, proper outfitting would include basic navigation capabilities including a GPS, VHF-FM radio transceiver, T.V receiver, AM-FM radio receiver, cell phone, and internet access. Notice that I said nothing about a shortwave set, this could cause you problems with being commandeered by any 1 of various authorities.

Your best escape route is to go east past Ambrose Lighthouse and the Continental Shelf and then head inland AFTER the backwash has stopped. Your post incident options would increase then.

Anchoring out provides greater security than docking somewhere.

An interesting perspective. We've always planned on a 'shelter in place' situation and if we loose the house doing a fall back to our RV. I keep it full of fuel and semi-prepared so we've got someplace to go if we loose the house. It's only a couple of miles away and I can walk to it if needed. The storage site has manual 'emergency' doors so I can always get out if necessary. Give us two or three hours and I can have it totally stocked and we roll away to anyplace we need to. If I have to just go - we can do that and 'stock up' at the Wally World in the next town or even 2 - 3 hundred miles down the road. Think of it as the ultimate BOB on wheels.

We had to do a grab it and go once when my mother-in-law got very ill and from leaving home to get it to rolling out for Iowa it took under an hour. With all that said, I still keep a BOB in my vehicle that I would only have to 'add' water to and scrounge some food to be set for several days in most any conditions.

Our friends have a cabin a hundred miles or so away to the east, we've got relatives to the south, friends to the west and north so having the RV is a real boon to our planning.

Good call LED. Modularization is something I always try to do. The trouble lately with modularizing my gear is where to put the 'modules'. If I leave any more kits around the house, the DW will kill me

In this context though I think it would work...I've done similar planning with my backpacking stuff.

My experiences have taught me that the best bugging out plan includes a destination and backup transportation modes.

I have 4 places to Bug Out/In to: 1) Set up a shelter in my garage in the event of a Chemical, Biological, or Nuclear incident/accident or if the rest of my home is damaged. 2) Relatives who live approx 35 miles away in a small village. 3) A friend's land which includes an old coal mine in the mountains about 350 miles away. 4) A friend's land/home beyond the mountains, in the country, approx 12 hrs away.

My transportation plans are:
1) Primary Vehicles - a van and a truck (with sufficient fuel to refill the tanks once/approx 12hrs driving time). We can carry maximum food, water, fuel, manuals, weapons, & misc. equipment.
2) Secondary Vehicles - Bicycles (still getting them outfitted properly, including trailers). We can carry 2 weapons per person, extra food, Some specific medical equipment, BoB's.
3) Tertiary Vehicles - walking/hiking with BoB's. We can carry 2 weapons per person and BoB's.

Things can and most likely will occur during such a journey (Bugging Out/In) that can cause you to have to leave your Primary and/or Secondary vehicles behind. I believe that to succeed in the survival equations, multiple options must be created in the event that those options are needed.

When setting up a base camp; I've usually decided beforehand that I will be creating a basecamp. Just as I set up a temporary camp, I take care of the obvious needs first - shelter, latrine, fire pit, and a fire screen, and perimeter security, if I deem it is needed. Over the days that I am in this base camp, I'll address improvements (Wind shields, privacy shields around the latrine, perimeter security, scouting for additional food sources, etc). Over time, I'll get some live traps and cages built for rabbits and possibly other critters (you never know when you might come across a maverick, or a stray goat, sheep, etc.). The long and short of it all is, I'll be constantly improving my surroundings and means to live. I will usually leave a base camp with more assets than what I had had upon my arrival.

With the kids and heavy gear I would look to a large wheeled deer carrier.

I've used them to carry 200+ lbs of venison.

You will be a lot less tired than lugging two heavy packs.

> My family loves to camp and is good at it, but in 99% of the bug-out
> situations I can imagine we are either heading to a hotel or the home
> of a friend/family member.

My wife and I were in New Mexico when the Rodeo/Chedeski fires were raging. There wasn't a motel room to be had for miles and miles - all the people who were evacuated were already in all the motels. Personally, in my location I don't bet on being able to get a room in a day's drive anywhere. Other people's mileages will vary, of course.

> Then I thought: "What if the plan isn't to get as far away as possible?
> What if the plan is to get a little ways off then just wait out the 'storm'?".

There are several scenarios which have different likelihoods. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area on a peninsula. If I can't go south, I'm stuck. There are two major roads to the south. The one nearest me (a block away in fact) is covered in overpasses, so if they drop in an earthquake, that road can't be used. The other major road is a long way off and may be inaccessible for a number of reasons, including overpasses and other structural damage. My plan is to survive in place in the event of a major earthquake. Earthquakes are not 'leaving fast' events. It happens and either you _can_ leave or you can't. It's after the fact, though.

The other major issue is fire, and we'd be stuck in serious traffic, given our geography, but evacuation would be a necessity if our town were on fire. We're downwind of downtown and the mountains where fires are likely. But we could go north, depending on wind conditions, in addition to south. Fire would be the 'leaving fast' event.

Flooding is possible, but not as big a problem as the mountains are in walking distance if we have time, biking distance if speed is necessary and cars are blocking the streets.

What else is there that's a likelihood. I don't live in an area that would be a reasonable target for terrorism. There is a possibility of a train wreck or truck wreck that would release chemicals with fumes, but shelter in place with duct tape might be workable, and such accidents are localized. Hazmat release could be 'leaving fast' events or shelter in place events, depending.

In my area there's no place to have a stash, no place to have a base camp other than our condo parking lot.

There's a lot to think about, but I'm not sure how generalized the various scenarios would be. I'm in an area where there is limited mobility, yet with limited space for stashes and the like.

That is, if someone else doesn't get to your boat first. On the other hand, I'm not sure lots of people would realize the benefits of heading for deeper water. Either way, a low profile would be the way to go to avoid uninvited "guests."

Whether your survival retreat is a base camp, boat, or coal mine, the same concepts remain useful. Use your EDC and BOB to get there, with re-supply staches on route if necessary. Being able to use your vehicle and re-supply from your vehicle kit is a bonus. Stock your survival retreat with long-term, sustainable technologies, etc.

We are too old and worn out to do any on-foot bugging, and I have never been a big fan of buggin' out anyway. Given our life style, living in an RV, and moving to a different part of the country every five or six months, there is no way we could plan a bug out anyway. We keep tent camping gear, cooking gear, and several days worth of food, plus a few gallons of water, in our P/U, so if we should get stuck anywhere for whatever reason, we could hopefully survive a few days in relative comfort. Other than that, our home on wheels is our "bug out" vehicle. Also our "bug in" vehicle...

OBG, you are already a nomad.

With luck your EDC can always get you to your RV, which, as you say, you can use to bug-out or bug-in, or to your vehicle and its kit as an alternate for bugging out.

If the roads are not available or your vehicle is disabled, and bugging-in stops being a viable alternative, you are looking at a BOB situation. If your vehicle becomes disabled or blocked while you are bugging-out, then you are looking at a BOB situation.

Maybe add powered or unpowered cycles mounted on your vehicle, with BOB appropriate to cycles, to the repertoire?

And now you face a new "nomad v. base camp" choice.

If I understand correctly, the "base camp" concept discussed in this thread is just what I think of as a "survival retreat" by another name.

The dfferences are that the base camp:

(1) uses camping out gear as opposed to a home, cave, or more traditional, durable dwelling choice, and

(2) as discussed in this thread seems to assume the base camp will be set up within the 72 hour, plus or minus, walking range for which I understand a BOB is usually designed.

If my understanding is correct, then I would suggest you should consider pre-selecting your base camp spot and locating a survival stash there with the heavier stuff. Then you are back to using your EDC and a lighter BOB to get there.

Preselecting an area isn't a bad idea. If nothing else, scouting it out gives you something to do while you test the bag/equipment.

That's similar to the evacuation of Houston back when Hurrican Rita was supposed to hit. Every hotel room to central Oklahoma was booked (we bugged in). That being said, in my case with two kids and a wife I'd either bunk with friends in Austin.

We are lucky in that we have friends/friends all over the country. Depending on the nature of the disaster I could find shelter with any of them. Driving to Iowa is an option if necessary.

My personal opinion is that any disater large enough send my family into the woods is almost nil and so I focus my preps in other directions. If an asteroid hits we might have some difficulty, but if a flood hits or a train carrying 10,000 gallons of sulfuric acid derails 1/4 from our house we are set.

-Blast

I'm not going to disagree with the concept, but the costs of keeping a boat that's over 25 feet in length around, and keeping it moored accessible to Manhattan, it's not going to happen for most of us.

Good info about Saugerties.

I guess in my case I'm preparing for the crazy over the top emergency situations that are unlikely to ever happen because for anything else, I'd either be bugging in, driving out, or I wouldn't leave at all because I'd be involved in rescue work related to the disaster anyhow.

I've said it before and now I feel even more strongly...this is a very personal thing and we all deal with it (or don't) in a very personal way.

+100

-Blast

Well, if you'd order it in smaller batches, they wouldn't need to ship it by train.

I always figured for any of us in any kind of relatively large urban area we'd need to be at least a little bit psychic to be able to beat the traffic jams ...and being stuck in traffic would kinda defeat the purpose in my opinion.
I have a BOB in my truck for minimal support if I can't get home, like during recent wildfires. Ideally it will provide a few days food, water, change of clothes etc by itself ... but a tent and tarp will be in the truck but aren't able to fit in the pack yet. One day though ...hopefully, since smaller lighter more compact items also are more expensive, I'll have equipment that will.
BUG-IN preps are a work in-progress and while I have a lot of things, they aren not that well organized... but again, the wildfires re-inspired me to work on getting that better organized, so that if we had to evacuate they would already be in one place to grab and go in an hour.
And any form of bugging out always meant ...in my opinion...leaving HOME for an unknown period of time ...so I wanted to have enough stuff to re-establish a new "base camp" somewhere with my supplies. Though it became obvious to me early on, that all my BUG-IN supplies could never get packed up quick enough to bug-out (something I'm working on)....unless I kept them in a huge truck that always had a huge supply of fuel to feed it. Extensive water and food supplies are expensive AND can get heavy quick. I don't have the resources for that, so smaller lighter, more compact is my current mantra. I decided to draw the line at 1 week at first ... and build on that until I ran out of vehicle cargo/storage capacity or realistic time to load it.
My wife doesn't know how much money I've got in all the stuff I've procured over the years (neither do I, but my impression is gonna be larger $$$ than hers) and I don't think I'll ever "be done". I'll just be BETTER prepared next week than I am this week, like I'm better prepared today than I was this time last year.

"...you are already a nomad..."

You know, I never thought of that, but you are right!!!

As some of you may recall, my perspective on survivalism is heavily informed by my role as a professional disaster responder, discussed in earlier threads. Like many of you, I have been a bit of a student of the subject of survival from historical and academic perspectives, too.

In broad historic terms, the story of survivors is the story of refugees, or at least resettlers. I have never been a believer in the idea of the heavily armed nomad wandering the post-apocalyptic wasteland, heavily armed and getting by on his wits.

Much of survival is simply situational awareness combined with the foresight and flexibility to act before things get too bad. Many Jews and others had the foresight to leave Germany before about 1938, when things got really bad and it was too late to leave. Many who stayed behind thought that Germany would come to its senses, had close ties to their neighborhoods and extended families, had built up communities and business they were loath to abandon, etc., or were simply patriotic Germans who loved their country and their (vanishing) way of life and did not want to make drastic changes. In short, they would have to give up almost everything they knew, loved, and owned to risk an uncertain future in a foreign land. In short, even if they saw what was coming, they were so financially or psychologically invested in staying put and trying to maintain what they had and enjoyed to have flexibility and exercise the foresight to relocate.

On a much smaller scale, many people fail or refuse to evacuate in a timely fashion from fires, floods or hurricanes for fear of leaving their homes or personal possessions “unguarded.” Likewise, others refuse to leave because they have pets, livestock or businesses to attend to. Others had fears of emergency shelters. Some of them die every year as a result.

A wise woman once told me that much of life is composed of whatever happens to you while you were busy making other plans. The point for us survivalists is that the events of life tend to overtake our best laid plans and cause those plans to go awry. Therefore, I think making, and, more importantly, being either financially or psychologically over-invested in plans that are too concrete or inflexible may be counter-productive.

So a big part of surviving is not only being able to recognize the Really Bad Thing that’s coming, but being flexible enough to act in time, perhaps in a way that involves abandoning any previously made plans, and/or everything we have known and valued in life thus far.

That’s pretty scary. I have a very nice life, comfortable home, career, friends, etc. But I’m not willing to die for things that are really transitory anyway. I’d hate to give it all up permanently, but I hope I would have the sense to recognize the need and do so if circumstances dictate.

We survivalists all have a pretty fair idea of what a flood, earthquake, hurricane, economic collapse would entail, and we can plan accordingly. But nobody has a really good idea of what the aftermath of a national or global and persistent apocalyptic disaster might be like. Without meaning to give offense, I don’t think “permanent” or long-term survival preparations make much sense for many of us.

First, the financial investment is just too large for many of us to make a real long-term survival retreat. If you enjoy a primitive frontier, off the grid mode of living as a lifestyle choice, that’s different. Likewise, if you live a rural, agricultural oriented life, making arrangements for basic self-sufficiency fits. But most of have careers, mortgages, kids in school, etc., that make that sort of thing mainly a dream.

Second, if you do make that sort of investment, what if circumstances suddenly make it impractical? What if your retreat or family farm is ground zero? What if a band of Mad Max rogues just takes it over? What then?

Of course, the same thing applies to shorter term arrangements. Like many of us, my home is pretty well prepared, and is my planned “bug-in” location, although it offers only enough for temporary survival. It’s just a suburban home, albeit a somewhat hardened one. It’s no fortress or sustenance farm.

My BOB is simply enough to get me home from my regional daily travels. I can live out of it for about three or four days, for sure. But it would also be very helpful in stretching that far longer, whether in semi-urban or wildland environments, or even in a shelter.

Which brings up the next point. Survivalism, in broad historic terms, is a community affair. I’ve never bought into the idea of the lone wolf survivalist, wandering, heavily armed, across the post-apocalyptic wasteland, or even carving a new survival homestead out of the wilderness. The real survivors, it seems to me, will be the persons with many friends and family, and useful skills and knowledge to contribute to a rebuilding community, working together.

Likewise, NOLA notwithstanding, don’t disregard government assistance, at least in a typical regional, non-apocalyptic disaster. The system *usually* works pretty darn well. Don’t be afraid to go to a Red Cross shelter, for example. You will be allowed to leave as soon as the immediate danger has passed. In fact, they want you to leave ASAP. No one will be forced into labor camps.

This is the short (really?) version of my survival philosophy and experience. Therefore, I do the following. I plan and make actual preparations for typical temporary emergencies, which also has value for the longer term, worse, or unexpected events. I make a few preparations with an eye to longer term events specifically. All of my really long term survival plans are essentially mental, involving careful consideration of the possibilities, but I don’t do anything specific, as a practical matter.

Here’s one analytical tool I use, it’s another “Rule of Threes.” I think in term of three seconds, three minutes, three hours, three days, three months, and three years. Some things can kill me in less than three seconds, which is why I wear my seatbelt, and also why I carry a concealed weapon. I’ll gladly give up my wallet, or my car, or my household goods, but not my life. I can survive less than three minutes without air to breathe or with severe hemorrhage. That’s why I have life vests with knives on them to cut away entangling lines, and my FAK has tourniquets, for example. I can survive less than three days without water, which is why my BOB has water and purification equipment. More generally, I prepare for three days first, with my BOB, then for three months, with home preps, and I’m nowhere close to three years of essential supplies, although I’d like to get there. You get the idea. After that, I plan not to plan. But I do think about “what if . . .”

But I know that things can happen that will keep me from my BOB in the trunk of my car, or force me to abandon my home, or make any other plan or preparation I’ve made utterly useless. In that case, I will have to fall back on only my skills, knowledge, wits, friends and family, flexibility, endurance, random chance, and faith.

I welcome comments, criticisms, and contrary views.

Jeff

Good one, Jeff!

I hope you and yours never have to use any survival stuff.

Do you have any thoughts on evacuation to a specific, pre-planned location?

Thanks.

I have a question for anyone who has lived through a quake scenario with collapsed overpasses - are the roads they overpass actually out of use?

I'm more familiar with overpass situations that come from temporary impassability - the overpass gets hit by an oversize truck, and has to be repaired. When the overpass goes 'down', traffic is re-routed and still viable over the offramp and onramp to either side. In other words, you still can travel a roadway with downed overpasses by exiting and re-entering at each downed overpass.

I-90 in western Washington headed up to Snoqualmie Pass answers this description - except for one overpass that lacks an onramp continuing East. Which scotches any mass evacuation plans to Eastern Washington after a serious shake (assuming the I-90 summit bridges survive).

It really depends. The example you give is the best case scenario, where there is an on/off ramp that you can use to drive around the blocked section of freeway. But you can't always count on on/off ramps being close by or surface streets nearby that can detour around the problem.

There was a tunnel fire on the I-5 north of the LA area a couple months ago, which is the primary north-south freeway linking northern and southern California and basically goes up the middle of the state. People had to drive way, way out of their way to bypass that fire, either going all the way around over the high desert to the east, or up the coast instead. If the tunnel fire had been associated with a major earthquake and fire crews and repair crews were tied up elsewhere, there's no telling how much fire damage would've been done to the tunnel or how long it would take to repair and reopen.

Or look at the Bay Bridge collapse at the '89 quake. No easy way around that.

Just to piggy back on this, for those unfamiliar with CA geography, if I-5 is out, you have A) Pacific Coast Highway or Hwy 101, runs along the N/S axis of the state, or I-395, along the east border. Really, that's it in terms of major routes. And there's very little E/W connectors that aren't local routes. No major East west freeways between Los Angeles (maybe Santa Barbara) and the San Jose/Sacramento areas.

So basically, like it was said, it depends. If a big one hits SF or LA, there's probably easy ways around it. If you take out central California, you're going to waste lots of time taking dirt roads or one-laners for maybe hundreds of miles to get around things.

I normally keep 40 gals gas on hand but I'm increasing that to 50 gals since that equals 1 refill for the van and 1 refill for the truck. That gives me about 12 hours of driving time, if I am frugal with the "accelerator".

Today I got another ten gals and thaqt gives me 30 gals at this moment. When I come back home next month, I'll bring that up another 10 gals to 40 gals total.

I have a layered approach. Bobs for the adults in our bedroom, bobs for the kids are spare diaper bags kept in each vehicle and the normal diaper bags. Next layer is our suitcases and the 'pack and play' portable cribs for the kids. Next layer is the gear staged on the shelf in the garage, food, water, portable grill, camping gear, etc.
If something would force us to leave our home its more likely to be localized where we would drive to a nearby hotel so we may use the first couple layers but wouldn't need camping gear and such.

When we bug out to the camp site we will take everything including the kitchen sink