Well it's been a while since I posted a 'here's my kit' post and since I just thought of this last night I figured I'd post it this morning and see what popular opinion is before I go out and buy some of these items.

I was packing my BOB and got to thinking that the worst 2 items for me to pack is food and water. I never seem to have enough and they never pack well. Water is heavy and food is awkward and also heavy unless it's freeze dried. I wanted to do away with both as much as possible. This got me to thinking about consumables in an emergency pack and wondered if I could do away with them as much as possible...replacing them with sustainable resources. For the most part I'm trying to keep things simple and light with the goal of being able to sustain for an unknown period of time as best as possible without taking the kitchen sink.

I was up until 3am planning this out. I don't have internet at home right now so it was a real mental exercise...no Google searches to find answers for me.

Here's what I've come up with so far. If there's something in the list which is consumable and not easily replaced in the bush that means I haven't found a suitable (and sustainable) replacement (gear or know how):

• Bag: To Be Determined...One of my many bags will do
• Knife: Any good knife...I should have an Aito Puukko on order soon.
• Axe: My Snow & Nealley Penobscot Axe
• Saw: Bahco Laplander
• Multitool: Charge TTI. I'm taking the Leatherman plunge...it has everything I need and very little of what I don't.
• Gear Repair Kit: Put together. Mostly sewing, sharpening, and metal preserving goodies plus some good duct tape.
• Fishing Pole: 5 section rod with bait cast reel in case.
• Rifle: Henry Repeating Arms US Survival Rifle (or any compact takedown model)
• Tacklebox: All the essential fishing goodies, extra line, snare wire, ammo, and any needed maintenance tools for the rifle.
• Sleep Pad: MEC Kelvin short pad
• Sleep Kit: Season appropriate sleeping bag in REI minimalist bivy.
• Rain Gear: Integral Designs Tarp Poncho
• Shelter: Above poncho with guy lines and UL aluminum pegs
• Food and water: Crusader canteen kit with extras for preserving, preparing, and seasoning food.(Might add a bottle of everclear and an alcohol stove but this isn't sustainable either). Plus some emergency Katadyne purification tablets as a backup.
• Cordage: 100' of 330lb test utility cord (I'm out of paracord ATM)
• First Aid Kit: AMK UL 0.9 plus some extras of just the basics (bandages, gauge, etc) to cover longer term needs
• Communications: Blackberry Pearl
• Light: Duracell hand crank radio/flashlight (also charges the Blackberry). Plus Everlite EL8 solar headlamp
• Fire: Light My Fire Army size firesteel
• Navigation: Suunto Compass, map, with GPS in phone as backup
• Toiletries: TP + a few things for sanitary precaution. Plus sunscreen and bug repellant.
• Clothing Kit: Dry bag with some extra socks and either 1 change of clothes or some extra warm clothes depending on season. Also extras not always worn like gloves, toque, etc.

Any thoughts for improvements? I have all of these things except the Leatherman, the solar headlamp, the first aid kit, and the rifle.

So by "sustainable," you mean you'd rely on foraging/hunting/fishing for food? Is that practical in your particular area in the best of times, let alone when "everyone" else gets the same idea and you're all using up the same food sources?

I don't see any food or water on your list except the one canteen. The plan is to bug out basically with no food or water at all then, right?

This is the Long Term forum, so could you paint a picture of the situation you're envisioning? Do you need to live off the land only long enough to reach a bug out location, or are you talking about living out in the bush for however long the situation calls for?

"...I'm taking the Leatherman plunge..."

Good for you!


"...Rain Gear: Integral Designs Tarp Poncho
Shelter: Above poncho with guy lines and UL aluminum pegs..."

I worry about the concept of using your rain gear as your shelter. If it is already raining and you are wearing your poncho, how do you rig it as a shelter without getting soaked? If you have it rigged as a shelter before the rain starts, how do you get it down and on you without getting soaked???

Hacksaw, I kind of think the way you are with my BOB, because I really do not see any other way. If I had a BOB with enough water and food for a week, living minimally, there would be nothing in my BOB but food and water.

I've got a bug-in supply of food that would last about a month and water for a number of days. Wish I had more of each, especially the water, but there is only so much one can do with an apartment. With a few minutes to preapre, I can quickly increase the water stored.

However, I do have a few days supply of food and some water in my BOB. I think the burden of carrying some of it is worth more than the risk of being without it.

And as far as OBG's comments on rain gear, I'd add a tarp. Both DW's and my BOB have a tarp and a drop cloth. If I remember correctly from this winter, your sleeping set up is pretty good, but wet would compromise almost any set up.

Thanks for the questions Arney. You're right. This bag would have no food and just the water in the canteen. Personally I feel that food and water are easy to come by. I live in the city but I'm 15 minutes walk from the North Saskatchewan River where fish, birds, and bunnies are plentiful...it's also a much faster and safer way to get out if on foot.

I have considered adding some 'starter' food like snacks and maybe one meal as well as a flat pack Source water storage bladder or hydration bladder as a backup to store water should it be scarce...they're light and i have some handy.



This is what I normally do when I'm going light anyhow. Personally I think it's no harder to rig without getting wet than your average tent...possibly better because you can hide under it in several ways while you set up. If it's pouring I typically rig it in such a way that I string it over a single line then peg the corners. That way I can rig it while I'm still wearing it and just pull my head out at the last minute to pound in the pegs.

I've even thought about trying to just set up the bivy while wearing the poncho, and then getting into the bivy without ever leaving the poncho...just laying it around the head of the bivy on the ground. I've never done it though...too much potential for it to funnel water right into my bag.

Definately an acquired taste but I like having rain protection and shelter in less space than my lightest 'packable' jacket.

I forgot to mention, the EL8 will also charge the phone (I'm 99% sure it has either a USB port or a USB adaptor)

Dont worry Hacksaw, If the SHTF you can bug out as far as my place which is north of the city. I have fresh water and game aplenty behind my place, There are lots of apple trees and veggies in the fall as well so the S better hit the fan then. Just make sure you have a big bottle of 21 year Glenfiddich Scotch in that BOB so we dont run out of whats at my bar. Then we will have something to drink while we have fun hunting.

In a long term situation I would go with a Rhino GPS with incorporated 2-way radio instead of a blackberry.(or take both) The Rhino has scan mode which will pick up all radio traffic like police radio/CB radio and other 2-way rads etc and will be of more use if the service towers are out. it is a GPS besides, and if they are still up and running it wont hurt to have one with the Alberta mapsource data loaded. A portable crank charger for the AA batteries will make you a little more self sustainable over the long run IMHO. I would add a quality compass like a SUUNTO to that just in case.

Actually...I'm not sure why I didn't think of this earlier but Integral Designs make silnylon tarps which are bigger than the tarp poncho and almost as small and light. Sleeping under a 5'x8' tarp is tricky anyhow.

I guess when I think 'tarp' my brain goes back to the heavy, big, and did I mention heavy? old school tarps I grew up with camping and still use for car camping. Adding a silnylon tarp wouldn't be hard at all. I'd then have more room to camp out under and have the poncho to use as rain gear or as a windbreak if I needed it secondary to the tarp.

I've looked at the Rhino's for years but I've never liked the price for what you get.

Solar charging is something I have the gear to do now...but I was worried that by including it, it would open the flood gates to gadgets I didn't need.

Hacksaw:

For your cooking need you might try this.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=288270

Now that is pretty nice...

I don't know anything about that area, so I'm just thinking hypotheticals here. Does the North Saskatchewan River ever flood? If the disaster is related to widespread flooding, I'm thinking that it could seriously affect the supply of game or the ability to move around or hunt/forage.

And how's the supply of game, wild plants, or fishing (does the river freeze over?) during the winter? Would you be able to get enough food to sustain you?

Thanks for being the Devil's advocate Arney...this is exactly why I post stuff here.

The river can get high but I've never known it to flood. I think the worst that has ever happened is high water has erroded the banks to the point of collapsing some of the houses which perch precariously over the river. The river is in a valley and the area around the valley is the largest urban parkland in North America (or so I've been told...over 7000 Hectares) so there is plenty of wildlife. Not ideal to be hunting inside the city (which I think is illegal) but survival is survival...and that's not a discussion for this thread. In fact I would be that one could live in the river valley parks and the chances of being found would be slim...though you might have to co-habitate with some people of no fixed address.

The River does freeze in the winter and it wouldn't be very fishable...but fish isn't a good primary source of food anyhow as they recommend only eating one fish a week from the river downstream of the city due to Mercury.

In winter the bunnies would provide...there are a rediculous amount of them here.

Theoretically I'd be out of the city before too long anyhow and there are a lot of tributaries which lead to ponds and lakes which are fishable through the ice. My kit is set up for that already and include the ever illegal speedhooks. Once outside of the city the wildlife gets even more abundant.

One other toy I've seen today is the solar rechargable Steripen...I think that's a bit too much when I can simply boil water.

"...In winter the bunnies would provide..."


Don't forget about Rabbit starvation . Man can not live by bunny alone...

I don't know, it seems to work for Hugh Hefner.

Anyone know the fat content of birds like crows, starling, and sparrows? Could they supply some of the fat?

-Blast

It's true. Eating just rabbit is a bad idea.

Is there such a thing as shelf stable, storable animal fat? I used to think fat-back was but anytime I see it at the supermarket it's in the cooler.

Could be worth while to pack something like that.

I guess you could always just take a pound or two of vegitable shortening or clarified butter...good for cooking with AND good raw energy if you can stomach eating it straight up.

Not a bad idea. I'm already going to be packing seasonings and stuff.

"...starling, and sparrows? Could they supply some of the fat?..."

I don't know, but small as they are, you would have to eat a jillion of them. Maybe two jillion. Crows and ravens, on the other hand, should provide more "meat." But I just don't know about the fat content, considering their diet (we seem to see a lot of them eating roadkill bunnies)...

I would think that overwintering birds would have more fat than migratory birds. Just to survivie the winter they would have to store up some energy. Don't have a source for that though.

I don't know, but birds are small and if you're going to need two to three thousand calories a day to get by (higher in the wintertime), that's a good amount of calories that need to come from sources other than super-lean rabbit meat. Not sure how many calories a bird, like a sparrow, has.

The "rabbit starvation" popped into my mind, too, when the topic of "bunnies" came up. If you (Hacksaw) had to bug out, say, in the winter and you didn't take any food with you, then I suppose it could become a problem, unless you're pretty confident that you could regularly get other kinds of more fatty game in the wintertime, too. What else would you anticipate eating regularly besides rabbit in the wintertime?

Edit: whoops, people already asked my questions while I was typing. Too quick for me!

I hadn't considered a BOB to be able to supply food and water for very long and not be something that I need to haul in a truck.
But your post got me thinking ....and while most common equipment choices are good ...they too are not truly very "sustainable" as I wouldn't have packed cases of batteries for the lights etc.
SO in evaluating what any of my own BugOut supplies actually do for me I arrived at the believe they can provide me some minimal tools and sustinance long enough to acquire replacement sustinance and tools to maintain or improve my minimal shelter etc.
Some of my kits are not yet really good for any longer than a few days. NONE have enough toilet paper to last a month ... and I learned as kid that I won't ever like wiping with myself with leaves ....but by having a minimal supply in my bag I put off the need to solve that problem the first day or two. I think a lot of the stuff we stash for any scenario pretty much does the same thing.
Its not perfect ...but at least I shouldn't be the one of those that has nothing the morning after the hurricane blows thru or the day after the ground stops shaking and is waiting for the gov't to save me.
And with any luck I can also defend myself from the looters that were too stupid to prepare in any way what-so-ever or at least take some of 'em out in their attempt.
But this thread has lit a spark of interest in selecting items like solar powered stuff etc that might provide utility for a longer term.

"...Is there such a thing as shelf stable, storable animal fat..."


Take along a big jar of Peanut butter ...

I don't know about the fat in the birds mentioned, but water fowl usually have a good amount of fat.

Here ya go...

Cured cuntry style ham and bacon.

This one is 'specially for Blast...

I've had fair success (I've never needed to so I've only tried once) using the stove from my Crusader canteen this way. There's just enough room for a twig fire or to drop in hot coals from a bigger fire though the latter usually isn't needed since I bought the cup hanger when I got the kit.

Peanut butter is a good idea too but you can't really use it to suppliment what you catch/trap/shoot...unless you're pregnant. And it runs out. At least with extra fat used as a suppliment only you can have it last a lot longer.

If you're crafty you can save the fat from the fatty animals you do kill. If you cook them over the fire the taste is good but the fat drips off...wasted. I'd likely boil the meat since I'm not sure my bushcraft skills are up to building a bush smoker/oven and then skim the fat off the water. It would keep a little while...much longer in winter. Boiling also makes sure you kill any bugs which might be in the meat. Drinking the water you boil in also gives you some protein plus the fat if you don't skim it off.

If you could build a smoker then you could preserve the meat and ration it a bit. It's not hard to do it the way the native americans did but you need to have some skill and lots of patience.

I ran out on my lunch break and picked up that solar light. It's not the most highly engineered piece in the world..and it's going to require an adaptor to charge my phone but it seems quite functional...once it's charged we'll know. The panel comes with velcro to attach it to your pack or something...handy.

I also picked up a 7x10 silnylon tarp. Lighter than I expected. It's too bad they don't make compression bags this small...the silnylon really wants to expand...I have the same issue with my Tarponcho and I'd love to be able to scrunch them down.

I think I'd have to be pretty darn hungry to eat a pet...but if you stray from town far enough Coyotes are abundant...I wonder how eatible they are.

If coyotes taste anything like dogs I'd have to say they are quite tasty.

OBG, very interesting link. I wonder if nuetering rabbits would cause them to fatten up...

-Blast

This is the best I could find on eating ole Wiley C. Looks like you better skip him in the summer, but winter might be a little better, fat wise. As far as taste, that is why they invented Tabasco...

Pigeon. If the Zombies attack Manhattan, and I cannot get out, I'm starting a pigeon farm on my roof top.

I have a secret weapon for food that's less than pallatable.

It's 6 different hot sauces mixed together with peanut oil, left to stew for a day or three, then strained through paper towel (you don't want to strain out ALL the heat) and put into a small atomizer bottle. I keep a small 1oz. bottle of it in my desk at work and even though many of my lunches get 3 or 4 squirts it lasts a long time (i'm still on my first bottle since coming up with the idea over a month ago).

A bigger bottle is definately going to go into this BOB now that odd food comes up(seperately wrapped in a freezer bag of course in case it wants to contaminate everything I have in there). A 5 oz. bottle would likely last years considering a whole squirt is likely more heat than any average person would consider tasty...or safe to put in ones mouth.

It makes sense that omnivores and carnivores would store up fat during the winter whereas herbovores wouldn't. It's probably easier to find a bit of bark or twig to eat rather than a deer, at least in the past.

-Blast

Secret Weapon

Speaking of weapon, sounds like it could take the place of pepper spray, too.

Unfortunately it doesn't squirt very far so it's no bear repellant...but it could be used to keep critters out of your camp I think...like putting hot sauce in your garden to keep cats and rabbits out.

Now that I think about it, the stuff has other survival uses.

Capcaicin is used in topical arthritis meds these days. You can apply it topically for sore joints and muscles. Althrough at this concentration your hands would need to be quarantined for a few days. Capcaicin has no smell to speak of compared to products like tiger balm and should be less of an attractant. Also, I'd like to see the look on a bears face when he sniffs a limb with a liberal application of this stuff. Just taking the cap off the bottle can make your eyes water.

Maybe that's why I have rubber gloves in my first aid kit!

Depending how long you're stuck out in the sticks, your clothes and shoes might well fall apart. How's your skills at sewing and curing hides?

You will eventually run out of ammo. At which point, I'd probably go with a bow/arrow set up. You feel OK on fletching arrows (I don't)?

Otherwise, nice ideas!

OBG, waaaaaaaaay too much time on yer hands But it's nice to know that some of the family pets have a real use....

To me, you are blurring the lines between concepts. Your everyday carry or EDC is designed to get you to your bug out bag or BOB, as I understand it, which is meant as a 72-hour kit to get you to your survival stash (which in turn is designed to get you to your ultimate well-supplied sustainable-survival retreat).

EDC is a major and recurring discussion on this forum.

BOB gear would be lightweight, multi-use, and definitely iclude water and food so you can move without need to hunt or forage for a few days at least. The design is to let you get clear of major population centers with their likely problems in a major emergency.

Survival stash gear would be as robust and inclusive as your survival journey needs, including food and water replenishment gear, and would incorporate everything appropriate from your BOB. The design is let you travel, perhaps several hundred miles on foot if necessary, to get to your survival retreat.

Survival retreat gear would be as extensive as your budget allows, aimed at indefinite sustainable living. The design is to be in a discrete location remote from most other folks so you have a chance to ride out a major disaster that may take months or years to resolve; some plan based on various end-of-the-world scenarios.

If you are at or next to where your survival stash would be, then you may not need a BOB, your EDC amd survival stash would suffice.

If you are fairly near to your survial retreat, then you may not need a survival stash, your EDC and BOB suffice.

If you are living in or next to your survival retreat, then you may not need either a BOB or survial stash, your EDC alone would suffice.

Or so it seems to me this early in the morning.

"...waaaaaaaaay too much time on yer hands..."

I know. My wife has been feeling kinda puny lately, so I stay quiet by banging the keys quietly...

Sorry to hear about that...hope she feels better soonest

Thanks, me too. We are supposed to depart here Tues for the great northwest, but she can't travel in her current condition....

DBLW is headed for Cali tomorrow, maybe you can live vicariously through him

Of course, it may be difficult to live thru someone who's six nine or so, but, hey, at least I have a tall DW.

OBG, best wishes for the wife's speedy and complete recovery.

Still too much time on my hands:

The nature and purpose of each type of survival gear collection [EDC, BOB, survival stash, and survival retreat] also drives our curiosity and desire to learn cross-over skills and acquire cross-over gear.

For example, EDC and BOB concerns make ultralight backpacking, trail running, escape and evasion, and first aid of interest. Survival stash concerns also stimulate interest in navigation, hunting, fishing, trapping, and edible and useful plant lore. Survival retreats drive us to learn about animal husbandry, farming, blacksmithing, and all the domestic arts that do not depend on reliable electricity.

Thoughts about very long term problems and the possibility of facing the future with nothing beyond EDC stimulate interest in so-called primitive skills such as fire-making, shelter-making, flint knapping, primitive pottery and basketry, etc.

And, of course, any the skills, gear, and information could come in handy at any time.

I feel much beter having that off my chest.

Thanks.

It's true. And while my skills are good enough to make repairs, I wouldn't be able to do any tailoring...nor do I think that's an issue. For this concept I don't expect to be living in the wilds forever...just for an unknown length of time. That could be a week, a month, or several months. Certainly not long enough to wear out 2 sets of clothing.

The backup to the rifle is snares and traps. I wouldn't trust myself to make a bow and arrows then use them for survival...not with my current skills. The fishing rod is also there as well as the fishing supplies. With those combined I think I could stretch things out pretty far.

dweste: To me a bug out bag is personal and doesn't fit any set definition. Where is it written that 'bugging out' will only last 72 hours? If you want to get technical, I don't think the chances of 'bugging out' are very high in my case...I'd be surprised if it ever needed to happen at all. But as a preparedness exercise, I like to put these things together and try them out. It helps me plan, improve skills, etc. There are also side benefits because these exercises usually help me plan backpacking and camping trips because I have a better idea of what gear I can get by without.

For example I have no idea how long a box of .22LR would last me if I had to hunt for my meals...but if I never dabble with it, I'll never have a clue beyond a guess.

For me terms like 'survival stash' and 'survival retreat' don't even come into the picture and aren't something I plan for...or have intentions to pursue.

As far as EDC gear goes...for me EDC stuff isn't about being prepared for an emergency ("..get you to your BOB") as much as it's there to be prepared for every day life.

Maybe I just don't take it as seriously as some...it's the learning that interests me as much if not more than being ultimately prepared for everything and anything.

I still think you need a tarp. Shelter, to cover your gear, to cover the only dry firewood you've got, to collect rainwater, to use as a sun shield. And please don't say you'll have the river. Sprain your ankle badly even a relatively short distance from the river, and you have a problem, easily rectified if you have a tarp.

High-qualty lard will keep about a year, more in low temps.


__________________________________________________
Madness takes it toll ... please have exact change.

I picked up a tarp already thanks to the advice of you fine folks. 7'x10' should be enough combined with the tarp/poncho.

Good call in the injury side of things Susan. Even a bad blister can really screw up progress let alone a sprain or break...especially if you're not equipped to treat it.

While obviously you are planning to boil your water to purify it, I would consider adding a Katadyn Hiker Pro Water Filter or equivalent for those times that building a fire just doesn't make sense. Also keep in mind you can fill a 3 liter Camelbak in about three minutes with one of these, whereas boiling that much water would take quite some time.

With regard to water collection in urban environments, I keep a 4 Way Faucet Wrench in my BoB. Most commercial/industrial water silcocks do not have handles on them (for obvious security reasons) so one of these wrenches will allow you to easily fill up the Cammelbak as you are heading out of town.

I don't see any cookwear listed - I would think that cooking game in nothing more than a Crusader cup or a pointed stick would get old pretty fast.

The final thing that I would suggest is either a good quality wrist rocket (I have a Crosman Tempest that I'm pleased with) or at least a slingshot replacement band that can be used to fashion one from a forked branch and some paracord. This might serve as a practical alternative to using up your ammo on birds and small mammals, and could obviously also be used to make a crude harpoon for shallow water fishing.

Jim

OBG, I am enjoying the discussion.

I adopted the general 72-hour idea for a BOB from some of the first discussions I read, but I have no investment in such a rule beyond saying it makes sense to me as a planning guideline.

Granted a BOB for each of us will be individual in the sense that we have preferences, varying medication needs, and wear different sizes of clothing, etc.

However, if we start with the Rule of Threes for survival [3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food] as a sensible BOB planning guideline, and add in the fact that we are supposed to cover some distance while carrying the thing [bugging out] then our BOB contents are going to fall into categories that are not very individual.

But I have been properly corrected before.

What do you think?

Great suggestions Paragon...these are things I would never think of. I went for walk in the river valley on my lunch break today and found lots of great stuff. Fishing spots, edible mushrooms and flowers, and 2 working fountains...if the fountains didn't work, your wrench could be a great help in a pinch.

The only filter I would take is one that can be flushed out and reused like the Sawyer ones. I've been trying to find one locally to buy. I'd like to try putting it inline on the hose of my 3L drinking bladder. If the filters need to be replaced I'd be better off taking my MIOX pen with spare batteries...less space and almost as much water can be treated (depending on batteries of course).

The sling shot is also a good idea though I'd need to practice up...I haven't shot at a moving target with one of those since I was 9.

I missed where you mentioned primitive living skills dweste and you hit the nail on the head. These are the skills I don't have and excercises like this force me to think about what skills would benefit me if I learned them. I don't need to be an expert in all aspects but there are at least a few key skills that I'm going to get a grasp on this summer.

You're also right about the rule of 3s and this is something I think about a lot when I get to thinking about stuff like this. There's no way I can carry 3 weeks of food so presumably there will be a point where I'll run out if my journey takes me longer than 72 hours (or however much food I'd planned for). At that point we're fasting unless we have the skill and tools to find more. Since that's how I think about it, I couldn't decide where to draw the line...so I drew it at no food to see if it could be done. It's all still academic because I haven't actually done it...but it's coming.

"There's no way I can carry 3 weeks of food so presumably there will be a point where I'll run out if my journey takes me longer than 72 hours (or however much food I'd planned for)."

When you head out with 3 days of food, one hopes that you will be able to supplement that with local resources such as berries, nuts, small game, relatives.... thus extending your carried food.

One thing to be aware of is always to keep an eye out for old "homesteads", burnt out buildings, concrete foundations, etc. Many old gardens had edible plants that have reseeded themselves with something useful. I once came across an old chimney, and while prowling around, came across what looked like a potato patch. Digging a bit, I found a source of spuds!

When people leave "stuff" behind, some of it may be in their gardens.

Sue

This is the same line of thinking I've been working on since I found out that I might have to start flying to and from my towboat.

I've been playing the "I spy" game with the intention of paying more attention to the resources that are "just laying around".

My thanks to Susan; your comments about old gardens hadn't really struck me before.

I forgot who had commented on finding "old camps", but there is an old camp on the Arkansas River, just below Lock & Dam 10 that had canned goods, cooking gear, sleeping bags, shoes, etc laying around. The "etc included I.V. tubing and other medically related equipment there. We figured it was a "meth lab" site that was rousted out by the Ark State Drug Task Force. It had a shack there made from tree timbers/trunks, sheets of tin, and tarps.

That also reminded me that it is wise to carry a "trip wire detector" (an old habit of mine) when you're cutting across country in strange, unfamiliar woods. You don't know who is doing what, where, or how those folks are protecting their illicit activities. Many of the "druggies" are using Vietnam type booby-traps like what they saw on the John Wayne movie: "The Green Berets".

[quote=SusanWhen you head out with 3 days of food, one hopes that you will be able to supplement that with local resources such as berries, nuts, small game, relatives.... thus extending your carried food.[/quote]

Your absolutely right Susan...and the more I play with this setup, the more taking even 1 day's worth of food is starting to make sense...as 'starter meals'.

That's even more important when you think of the scenario where one is following the river out of a city. Shooting stuff in the city is going to draw attention but in the country that's an every day sound. Plus it gives you a bit of a buffer.

Hopefully this exercise will teach me how much food is enough and how much is too much.

BTW...since we mentioned eating coyotes, I saw signs up when I went on my walk today to dog owners from the park rangers to not let their dogs off leashes as coyotes have been sighted all along the valley.

Take a flashlight and look inside the walls of "sharecropper's shacks" if you find some and it looks like the walls have high access points to the interiors.

Many things, including canned food have been hidden and had to be left behind for a variety of reasons.

Also take a flashlight to the attic rafters, you'd be surprised what has been left stashed up there!!!!

For an idea of that a marijuana growers camp looks like, and the junk they leave behind, take a look here ...

Around here marijuana isn't a problem...meth labs are everywhere however. It's not uncommon to find a folding table in the middle of the bush with chemical bottles all around. They make a batch and ditch the site completely, going to a new location next time so they're not tracked down.

One area I used to work, meth labs often resulted in smoking holes. Roadside justice at its finest...

My US Survival Rifle came in the mail on Friday. I think every air rifle (and some cap guns!) I had when I was young were beefier. It is super light though which I love. I'm reserving judgment until I can get it to the range and get a few hundred rounds through it.

I think I would lug the solar recharging gear. It would allow me to have my small laptop. I have several survival guides stored there as pdf files. The laptop would be lighter than two of the manuals printed out. I don't depend on having these files but they could come in handy.

Hacksaw - Congrats. Love new toys. Look forwrd to a range report. Review edible landscaping stuff; many plants common to flower gardens - like iris, rose, and nasturtium - have edible parts.

Wildman800 - Trip wire detector concept clear; what do you use?

Thanks.

Edible plants is on my 'to learn' list. I have the book sold at Ben's Back Woods on it's way right now (along with other assorted goodies!)

Hacksaw - My point is that many plants in the "ornamental" garden are just as edible and nutricious as plants in the vegetable garden. Don't forget the forage possibilities of the front yard and lawn area!

Edible plants to consider.

Amaranth. Big flowers, the seeds from which pop like popcorn, with some edible leaves.

Chufa. Looks like grass, grows a tuber that looks like a small potato. Turkey love this stuff. Won't survive your winter, but should be fine in summer.

Alium: Onion family.

Hi Hacksaw,

Please let me know how your experience was buying/shipping from Bens Backwoods, I have been eyeing some of his stuff and thinking about placing an order.

Thanks,

Mike

So far so good. Ben contacted me personally to let me know my order was delayed slightly because he was camping with his family...seems like a real genuine guy. It shipped last Monday should be here any day.

Speaking of experiences, I ordered from Ben to get the Puukko & Leuku combo knives I wanted. I first contacted Ragnar at Ragweed Forge to get that and an Aito Puukko but he has yet to get back to me and it's been 3 weeks+. Anybody know if he's out of town or something?

Trip wire stuff... well, good ole eyes work. I've also read that Silly String is quite the rage in Iraq for looking for trip wires. A quick squirt, and it'll drape over wires without setting them off. It helps that it'll spray 8-10 feet.

I hang a large washer with kite string (white) from the tip of my rifle as a trip wire detector when I am going through strange woods.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks that they can "live off the land" has better read "Into the Wild" 4 or 5 times.

A few days? Maybe. A Few weeks? Pretty good. Months? Not likely.

For me, the most important thing to consider for LTS is how well you can form a tribe, a coalition, a community, a village.

Incomplete hypothetical, Martin. LTS after what?

I think training in primitive skills, and use of modern survival gear, can extend survival. How long an extension is part of your planning.

Without a well-thought out and provisioned survival retreat in an area that can sustain some agriculture, some hunting, and some foraging, there is little chance for LTS on your own. Every other scenario leaves you dependent on others by definition.

As social animals most of us aren't going to want to survive in isolation for long anyway. After whatever survival scenario, we are going to seek connections and try to start some version of community.

What can we do if we lose the trappings of what we consider normal society, except live off the land directly or through mutual effort with our fellows?

Edit: this is way beyond what a BOB is all about.

I think I need to clarify one thing. My original post said nothing about living out of this pack for ever. The term I used was indeterminate meaning you can never be sure just how long you're going to have to fend for yourself in such a situation.

I'm not a 'survival property'/stockpile/etc (that's borderline crazy to me...no offense intended) type but I like to be prepared for the unexpected and planning like this helps me to be prepared for events I can plan for.

Hacksaw,

Here are a few ideas for sustainability in your BoB.

For a stove, consider the Bushbuddy. It's a wood gasification stove (no fan or batteries needed) that is pretty efficient. A bit pricy IMO but possibly worth the money ($95Cad to $105.45Cad, depending on where you live.) when it comes to durability and fuel sustainability. If you understand the principles involved and you are a bit "crafty", you can make your own out of a couple cans, a couple pieces of hardware cloth and some JB Weld.

Bushbuddy compact wood burning stove.

YouTube Video of the Bushbuddy

For water purification consider a Millbank type filter bag. Combined with boiling, chemical purifiers or a jury rigged solar shower and activated charcoal filter (Water from the Millbank drips into the solar shower and through a charcoal filter cartridge for a refrigerator’s water dispenser/ice maker attached to the output hose for the shower, the purified water then drips into your pot, canteen or hydration pouch.) a Millbank would give you all the potable water you’ll need in above freezing temperatures or if used inside a heated shelter. Add an MSR Miox or a SteriPEN for final treatment (if you’re not boiling, treating with chemicals or shower/filter rig) or water sources free of chemical/heavy metal pollution and you’re good to go.

For a dietary fat source consider a bottle of extra virgin olive oil. It doesn't need refrigeration even after being opened as long as it's kept shaded and relatively cool (Think bottle cozy with evaporation cooling attached to the outside of your pack in warm weather.). A tablespoon, maybe as little as a teaspoon in your food every couple-three days should stave off "rabbit starvation" for quite awhile so a quart would last for at least a few months, more than long enough to find additional sources of dietary fat. Nuts are a good source of fats, if you have edible nuts in your area. Raccoon, skunk, woodchucks and other middle-sized critters get pretty fat in late fall but nothing beats beaver tails for a high fat tasty treat, unless you can trap or shoot a bear.

I've looked at the Bushbuddy stove a few times but I've always been turned off by the price. I've also looked into the Vital stove. Still made in Canada but out east. Basically a fan fueled stove but extremely solid (the pot stand legs will support 50lbs). It doesn't gassify however.

I like the idea of the Millbank bag but it seems to only filter particulates. Can it filter Crypto? If not, then it's no better than a bandana as far as filtering goes since I already use tablets and/or a MIOX pen.

I'm just going by your idea of needing to be self-sustaining for several weeks or possibly months.

The Millbank only filters particulates but it is much better than a bandanna at it and allows more volume. You can also use one (properly sized and perhaps modified) as a carrier/protection for a solar shower or one gallon ziplock freezer bag(s) for transporting water (to a more secure or secluded location if needed) before purifying it. BTW a solar shower may not fit a "minimalist" approach but believe me, after a few weeks of "[censored]'s baths" or bathing in lakes, rivers or streams, even a luke warm shower is a great morale booster and a hot shower is better than sex (almost).

Another dietary fat idea would be several small cans of clarified butter. It should usually be refrigerated after opening but it should be safe if kept in a evaporation cooler (like a canteen cover kept damp).

I like the Olive oil idea but I've been trying to track down some Ghee for just that purpose...as well as for the camping pantry.

One of the things I struggle with when it comes to gear is that I love multitaskers. With the extra stuff I'd need to carry out this crazy idea that started this thread, I want as many multi taskers as I can to keep weight down. I also want some overlap/redundancy because re-supply can't be counted on which suits multitaskers fine...usually.

The Millbank bag is a neat idea and would be nice to have but it won't produce potable water on it's own and even with chemical treatment Crypto can still be a problem which is really what's critical...I'll stay dirty a long time if it means I have fresh drinking water. To me that makes it a bit of a liability weight and space wise.

I'm currently trying to get some multitasking out of my hydration bladder (Source 3L) by seeing if I can't adapt it to be a shower of sorts or at least a good washing aid. I'd also like an inline filter for it but before I'll use any kind of filter for this setting it needs to be backflushable or have a really long service/replacement interval. I forsee some creative bladder plumbing in my future for that.

[censored] hand" in large areas of the world.

As a substitute for toilet paper consider washing after you do your business. A couple of small spray bottles (one with soapy water, the other for rinsing) and perhaps a washcloth for drying if you don't care for drip-drying your butt.

[censored] hand" in large areas of the world.