#134912 - 06/06/08 02:06 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: jaywalke]
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Geezer
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
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It is probably just me, but a full sized mag in a short butt pistol just doesn't hold right in my hand. In fact, my Kahr MK40 came with two mags, a flush base, and one with a short finger extension. I dislike that one so much that I bought a couple of extra flush base mags to carry as back ups. Don't know for sure where the one with the extension is right now...
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#134970 - 06/06/08 03:26 PM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: red]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
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A definite +1 on the bandana, though. I actually keep a large bandana as well as a Buff in my Go Bag. I haven't included the Go Bag here simply because I don't really consider it to be EDC (by my definition of the term). Nevertheless, my Go Bag is rarely far from my reach, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing. When I'm developing an EDC plan, I always try to envision a police stop...how many weapons do I need to carry? For e.g., a stiletto in a leg rig would not go over well with my local LEOs. The cuff key would raise some eyebrows, I'd think. A very valid consideration, although I'm probably okay in that regard. Why not just carry a full-sized mag as back-up? I have a Glock 22, and have been salivating over the 27. If I do get one for concealed carry, I'll add one full-size mag as back-up. I'd rather have one reload for 15 rounds than two reloads for 20. I know several guys that carry the G27 as a backup to their G22, and a couple of 15 (or even 17) round mags is clearly the way to go. In my case however, I can't think of a single compelling reason to compromise concealability, while simultaneously carrying fewer rounds. I have somewhat large hands, so prior to the addition of the extended magazine release on my G27, tactical reloads and clearance drills were somewhat ackward and time-consuming. With the extension, these are no longer an issue for me whatsoever, so the use of multiple, smaller capacity mags works out fine for me. Jim
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My EDC and FAK
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#134998 - 06/06/08 05:39 PM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: Paragon]
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Stranger
Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
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I like the whole thing, with the exception of the ammo choice.
"Ammo is typically 155 or 180 gr Federal Premium Hydra-Shok’s, or Hydra-Shok’s alternating with 165 gr Winchester FMJ rounds during the winter months (when the bad guys are wearing heavier or layered clothes). "
The FMJ is a total waste. The only problem (with certain ammo like hydra shok) is that the hollow point can plug up with clothes, and the ammo will basically perform like FMJ - that is to say very poorly. So, the addition of the FMJ simply hinders you, instead of having rounds that MIGHT be reduced to fMJ performance, you are having rounds that ARE FMJ. FMJ is a VERY poor stopper. Give yourself every chance you can that your rounds will expand, and if they don't you have the functional equivalent of FMJ anyway - you've lost nothing.
And Hydra shok is old technology. I strongly suggest you do some research and thinking on your ammo. Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot have all been proven better performers than the old hydra-shok, they perform through heavy clothes, and have better barrier penetration and retained weight. All can be purchased on the internet in 50 rd boxes.
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#135028 - 06/06/08 09:24 PM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: djk010468]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
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I like the whole thing, with the exception of the ammo choice.
Hydra shok is old technology. I strongly suggest you do some research and thinking on your ammo. Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot have all been proven better performers than the old hydra-shok, they perform through heavy clothes, and have better barrier penetration and retained weight. [Federal] makes several major brands of defense ammunition: Hydrashok, Expanding Full Metal Jacket, and HST. Hydrashok has been popular among American law enforcement agencies for many years now while the newer HST ammunition is a bold design that has shown in testing to expand reliably to more than twice the original bullet diameter. Alliant TechSystems (ATK), which owns Federal and Speer has conducted many Wound Ballistic Workshops in various police agencies around the country using Winchester SXT, Speer Gold Dot, and the HST. The Speer Gold Dot was the only "bonded" bullet used in several workshops. Testing is completed in 10% ordnance gelatin, and consists of shots in bare gelatin, gelatin covered in FBI specification Heavy Clothing, steel, wallboard, plywood, and the toughest challenge of all - laminated automobile safety glass. The HST performed incredibly well in all categories, with consistent and adequate expansion, penetration and weight retention, with very few (if any) core-jacket seperations. The Winchester SXT had many core-jacket seperations in several categories including with all rounds fired through auto glass. Speer's Gold Dot performance was parallel to the HST's. HST, being new and with such promising test results, is difficult to obtain anywhere but in law enforcement circles and actual, reliable data on "street" performance is still pending. Also relatively new is the Expanding Full Metal Jacket, EFMJ, ammunition which uses a lead core and polymer tip completely encased by a copper jacket. The idea behind this being that it is guaranteed to feed reliably in autoloaders (a problem for some hollowpoints and firearms) and, because there is no "hollow" that can be filled, things like heavy clothing, glass, or drywall will not prevent the ammunition from expanding. This gives the EFMJ ammunition a very reliable rate of expansion at the potential drawback of a lighter bullet which moderately reduces the energy it carries. Very good information to know -- thanks. I haven't kept up with the latest developments in handgun ammo, so I'll try to pick up a few boxes before heading back to the range. Jim
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My EDC and FAK
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#135067 - 06/07/08 04:14 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: ]
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Journeyman
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 60
Loc: USA
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While I agree that placement is key, IMO what happens inside live tissue Vs gelatin should be considered wrt marketing claims.
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#135118 - 06/08/08 01:03 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: JohnnyUpton]
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Newbie
Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 36
Loc: DFW TX
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Here in TX, the kuboton could be a problem legally, but O.C. is explicitly allowed. Therefore, I carry a Key Defender, whose purpose is as a self defense spray. The shape of the container is purely coincidental...
Also, +1 on the HST. I have not been able to find it locally for a decent price, so I end up ordering it from streicher's.
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#135128 - 06/08/08 04:04 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: BlueSky]
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Stranger
Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
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Shot placement is important, but the more the bullet expands, the more tussue it tears and destroys. That contributes to blood loss and shock, which is what will go farther to stopping or at least slowing him down. Sure, FMJ to the central nervous system will do the same as an expanding bullet, but you have less surface area with which to hit that CNS. Failing that, I want as much tissue damage as possible. Even if it doesn't create an actual stop, it saps his will to fight.
You can practice all you want, but you have to remember that in a crisis you will not be shooting at stationary paper targets. Don't count on hitting the heart, or the head, because they will be moving, and shooting back. Give yourself every advantage you can. Better bullets are an advantage. It can be argued how much of an advantage, but if nothing else, if it expands to twice it's diameter, that's more area to hit those vitals.
I order all of my social ammo on line. Streichers, MAH supply, ammoman, all are good. Ammoman tends to have the best prices, but he doesn't always have stuff in stock. I know he has HST in .40 right now. And I think he has Gold dot's in 9.
I don't recommend SXT, but rather Ranger-T. It's a different design, and performs better. MAH Supply carries it, though a lot of it seems to be out of stock right now.
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#135130 - 06/08/08 05:20 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: stevenpd]
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Product Tester
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
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Yep, CA knife laws are very strict! Double edged knives are illegal here in California. They're very restrictive about concealment as well. For instance, you can only carry a knife if you are hunting, backpacking or other similar activity that would need one if the situation arises. Are you serious? Double edged knives are NOT illegal you however can NOT carry them concealed. You CAN carry a knife on your person while not hunting, backpacking, etc too. I suggest you read the CA Laws before spouting out incorrect information and realize that some crazy laws are only for you "SoCal" La County people.
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#135131 - 06/08/08 06:56 AM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: ]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1205
Loc: Germany
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I agree on the importance of bullet placement. Penetration is not as easily considered though. You cannot have penetration that will always be sufficient and no risk of over penetration at the same time. Even hollow point bullets may hit something behind your target (especially if they failed to find it). In my neck of the woods, hunters use FMJ to minimize the thread to the environment (expanding bullets are standard though). It is more predictable as it does not tend to create bullet fragments. The effect of a hit will also largely depend on the target. Adrenalin may well keep an individual target keep going for several seconds even after a heart shot (ask an experienced hunter to get that confirmed). The only hit that will stop on the spot is a hit to a small part of the central nervous system. In a self defense situation it should be considered as nearly impossible. Be prepared for an adversary that will still be able to act after a hit. You will be appallingly close to the real life scenario.
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#135133 - 06/08/08 12:21 PM
Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC
[Re: M_a_x]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
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For your reading pleasure, just some of the California knife laws:
California Penal Code
171.5. (b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess within any sterile area of an airport, any of the items listed in subdivision (c). (c) The following items are unlawful to possess as provided in subdivision (b): (2) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed, or is capable of being fixed, in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands
626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison
e) Subdivision (b) does not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick or a knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, state university, or community college for lawful use in or around a residence or residential facility located upon those grounds or for lawful use in food preparation or consumption
653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor. For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison: (1) gives,lends, or possesses any ballistic knife any belt buckle knife any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, (4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger (8) As used in this section, a "ballistic knife" means a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material, or compressed gas. (13) As used in this section, a "belt buckle knife" is a knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle and consists of a blade with a length of at least 21/2 inches. (14) As used in this section, a "lipstick case knife" means a knife enclosed within and made an integral part of a lipstick case. (15) As used in this section, a "cane sword" means a cane, swagger stick, stick, staff, rod, pole, umbrella, or similar device, having concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stiletto. (16) As used in this section, a "shobi-zue" means a staff, crutch, stick, rod, or pole concealing a knife or blade within it which may be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical action. (18) As used in this section, an "air gauge knife" means a device that appears to be an air gauge but has concealed within it a pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into place when extended. (19) As used in this section, a "writing pen knife" means a device that appears to be a writing pen but has concealed within it a pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into place when extended or the pointed, metallic shaft is exposed by the removal of the cap or cover on the device. (24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
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