What would I want in the event my office caught on fire? I'm thinking smoke goggles + smoke mask

Do dust goggles keep out smoke? Do those paper dust masks I see at Home Depot keep out smoke?

What about fogging?

Any other equipment I should consider? What kind & brand of equipment are people currently using?

Thank you - thank you - thank you.
Xavier - Phx, AZ

Hi xavier01,

You want a smoke HOOD, which covers your entire head. My favorite is the Brookdale "EVAC-U8", since it looks innocuous. Doug says the Essex PB&R "PLUS 10" is the best. There are others. Just be sure that the one(s) you get deal(s) with more than just "smoke" or you'll be dead. Make sure it handles CO (Carbon Monoxide), which is quite poisonous. The ones that do handle it use some sort of chemical catalyst to turn it into CO2 (Carbon Dioxide), which we breath all the time anyway, as one of the major gasses in our atmosphere. This catalyst only lasts so long, so all of these devices are single-use only.

Stay safe,
J.T.

like Jet said buy a smoke hood with CO capabilities.
dust masks does NOT filter CO. and buying goggles is kinda useless if you don't have a good mask ( with's ussually has some kind of eye protection ).
consider buying flashlight's, maybe multi-tool(s) and bottles of water.
that would be a good start. please do some reseach before you start loading up, because that way you will got the best gear for a reseanoble price.

Please keep in mind that these hoods do not supply oxygen or protect from the intense heat. So you should stil try and stay as close to the floor as possible. Pete

Xavier, Welcome to ETS,

The Evacu8 hoods also address many combustion related byproduct gases. Look into the reviews of the various types on this site. The Evacu8 site has a lot of information as well.

Regards,
Comanche7

Question:
Would a mini-rapelling kit be an unreasonable component in an office kit? Even if you couldn't get all the way to the ground getting a couple of floors lower could be a big help.

Sorry, after seeing people trapped and jumping at the WTC (no, not on TV) I can't help but think that if they could have rapped down 4-5 floors they could have made it.

Any comments? This is something I have thought about for a long time. I just didn't know if it would be feasable. Maybe with that 3-5mm micro line?

There are better climbers on this forum than I who can answer questions on what types of rope would suffice but I can say that terminal velocity is, well, terminal. Unless you can get your drop height under 10 feet you might as well not bother. Much over 20 foot drop is the same as a 1000 foot drop. What you land on makes more of a difference than how far you fall if you are falling more than 20 feet. (now if you use one of those ball chairs instead of an office chair you might use that as a pad while jumping... <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Nah probably won't work.)

Hell, if your really serious, get a base jump ram air chute. They pack tight and [censored] off the cops when you use them.

Its good enuf for OO7 its good enuf for me.

Mike

i though i have seen a escape mask with its own oxigion producing thing, a solid chemical thing that produces oxigion, with's are mounted on both side of the mask. (a bright yellow colored one )

you still have to hit the deck, with that mask...

There are escape rappelling kits sold to the fire department industry. 75' of high strength, low diameter, low stretch rope with a figure 8 and carabiner stored in a pouch.

They assume that you are already wearing a harness or one of the fancy belts that can be used as a harness in theory. The belts are made of 2 inch webbing with a parachute grade buckle. The figure eight would connect to the buckle. The webbing and buckle are strong enough but would be painful and potentially compromise your airway if you get stuck while rappelling.

A belt around the waist can cinch down on the abdomon, or pull out the belt loops of your pants and ride up on your rib cage and cinch down preventing you from inhaling. Hopefully you rapell to the ground before either of these things happen. Pants loops are not designed to support the weight of the wearer being suspended from them, only to counter act the weight of pants against gravity.

Additionally you need to secure your rappel line to something in the burning building that will withstand the weight of you and your rappel. Granted it only has to hold you unti you reach the bottom, and if it doesn't you will reach the bottom anyway. This anchor point may not be next to the window so allow some extra length to reach across the room and to tie/secure the rope to your anchor when deciding on length of rope.

Rope is bulky. Even 75' of small diameter rope fills a pouch about size of a leg pocket on BDU's. As you increase the length, the larger the pouch. Storage may not be a problem but cost may be. These escape kits typically cost $150 or more. The rope is made of Kevlar which is high dollar.

Are you familar with rapelling? It is not that difficult but if you plan on rappelling out of an office building, you might want to have rappelled at least once before so you know how to operate the devices. Rappelling anything over about 150 ft requires different equipment from a figure 8 because the rope weighs so much that it provides a braking effect to the point you may not be able to rappel at all.

Different rope diameters and materials provide differing amount of friction through figure 8's. You also need to take in to account body weight. Anything over about 250lbs and the figure 8 does not always provide enough fricition to control a rapppel. I weigh about 230 and double wrap my figure 8 when rapelling to get enough friction on an oversized figure 8 and 1/2" rope. A smaller figure 8 with small diameter slick Kevlar rope and I would be zooming down like on a greased pole.

I am not saying rule it out altogether. I would say you need to identify an anchor point or points. You would need to have a relaible means of breaking open your windows (window punch ). You would want some sort of padding system to cover the broken window glass so it does not cut your rappell line. You want to have enough rope to reach the ground from the floor you are most likely to rappel from. You need to have a harness or belt system that will effectivly work as a harness. And you probably should have rappelled at least once before, ideally with the equipment you plan on using. Swinging out an open window anything over a couple of stories and you will get some good pucker going on your backside.

I teach rappelling to fire fighters and rescue personnel. These guys and gals work on ladders and go into burning buildings. Getting some of them to even go out a second story window in a training environment for the first time can be a challenge. I have rappelled from about 200' feet and spent a day working on a 15x15 platform at 800ft. I had butterflies in my stomach all day and was not to keen on looking over the side even though I had on my harness and was tied in.

On the other side, most fire department ladder trucks and arials only reach 85'-100' feet. There are a few 110' ladders but 85'-100' are the most common. That is about 7-8 stories by the time they park the truck away from the building and angle it towards the building. They can be moved but it takes some time for the truck to place its outriggers and raise the ladder. They will have to lower the ladder, retrack the out riggers, move the truck and then reset the out riggers and raise the ladder.

the belt you are talking about, are they the mil-spec type CQB/rescue riggers belt ?
if you don't have a harness you can make one with the rope and a carabinder ( not sure weither it works with small diameter rope ). i think it's called a Swiss-seat ( or something )

There are personal escape "kits" used by firefighters, which generally consists of webbing, 50+' of escape rope and one or more carabineers. However, these do require the ability to tie a harness, training and practice. Here are some web sites to check out: Pete

http://www.anclotefire.com/ropesstraps.htm

http://www.emc4rescue.com/rescue/rope_rescue/ropes/cmc_rescue_firefighter_escape_line_kit.htm

http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/EquipmentManagementco/Escape_Line_Kits.html

http://www.vnzrescue.com/Kevlar%20EscapeovSearch%20Kit%20%232.html

http://www.allhandsfire.com/rit.html

I think if I worked in a high rise office building today, I would seriously consider rapelling as an alternate way out. But there are a lot of alternatives to these pricey "kits."

I have actually used one of the "last resort " belts in a very short, very straightforward situation. They are bad, highly uncomfortable, and potentially quite dangerous, just as you say. I wouldn't bother with one again, because they are very heavy for everyday wear. I would use a diaper sling - cheaper, lighter, more comfortable, and much safer.

I am somewhat skeptical about a figure eight, although I have formerly used one routinely. If slack is developed in the line (very likely in going over a sharp lip like an office window) they can lock up. I would prefer either something like a Black Diamond ATC (cheaper, lighter, some what jerky) or a Petzl Stop (more expensive, very smooth, easy to adjust friction, desirable safety feature). The very best would be a rappel rack - perfect for longer distances.

One technique that anyone should learn if they acquire rapelling skills is the "body rappel." It requires no gadgets at all, only a properly anchored rope. What a hero you will be if you offer the fair maiden (or the boss) all the nice equipment, and you follow her down, depending only upon your smooth body rappel!

I would certainly practice, ideally several times, before having to use it in a stressful, pressure-packed situation (I still recall the sheer terror I felt on my first rap, forty-five years ago). Getting over the lip is usually the most difficult part and you might want to plan procedures for your specific situation. Climbers and cavers routinely rappel 150 feet and up, so this technique might offer some possibilities, but it need thought, practice, and planning - like every other aspect of survival.

Lordy, lordy, how I have rambled on. You would have thought I was discussing knives!

I'd rather someone with minimal training attempt a rappel than a base-jump with a chute someone else packed who knows how long ago and how well. If you're seriously considering depending upon a base-jump exit scenario then you are looking at somewhere around $3000 worth of training to make it anything more than a joke.

Well, I used to be a big-time caver before I got married and my wife domesticated me. (Plus all my college buddies I used to go with were also domesticated in the same way.)

Body rappels can be very uncomfortable and are best left to semi-steep slopes over short distances instead of sheer drops over long distances. I've never seen anyone try to body rappel a 150' sheer cliff.

I did see someone (one of these big talkers) try to "Austrailian" style (with a swami seat and a running jump) off a 60' cliff once. He was hurting pretty bad when he was done. Good thing that 30' foot tall pine sapling help break his fall, or he may not have had to ever worry about pain again. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

If you wanna be the big hero, get some extra harnesses... or maybe cut several 20' lengths of rope for swiss seats (yes, that's what they're called). I'm sure someone has put instructions somewhere on the 'net on how to tie them. I'll go find a link that properly explains it if anyone is interested.

Ben Davis (National Speleological Society Member # 32811)

Developed inthe 1930 by Austrians, body rappeling was state of the art in the 1950s. You could order your cutting edge 60/40 parka with a shoulder patch then. If you didn't you soon added one to cover up the abrasion scar on your shoulder. my very first rappel was 120 feet, dead vertical, and for the first years of my climbing/caving career, it was the only way. I have done several 150 foot rappels, including some with short overhangs. In those days we divided ourselves into those who burned their shoulders and those who burned their butts.

Body rappels have given way to more comfortable, somewhat safer techniques, so I can see why you haven't seen any 150 body rappels lately. But the technique still has utility, because it is about the only way (aside from the French arm wrap technique) to descend with no equipment whatsoever other than the rope. It could be a handy technique in exiting a burning (or otherwise compromised building).

You would be fortunate indeed if the two of us were eying the only set of rapped gear because I would unhesitatingly give you the harness and descender, pad my bod and rap away to safety. Indeed, if we had to get a number of folks out by this technique, I might just step up first and rap away, because I could be finished by the time the next person had rigged up.

I don't body rappel routinely any more, but when I have taught people, I have always at least demonstrated this technique. It does have its uses, albeit limited.

Incidentally, a fellow caver introduced me to my wife about twelve years ago - many neat times in caves since then.

Don - REI #34454 - My NSS number is just about the same, but my card isn't handy (my wife persuaded me to finally join the NSS after all those years

Well, then you're a better man than me. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

People used to give me funny looks (in the mid-80's) when I just rappelled with a swiss seat and a non-locking "D" ring. I was told that it was the "Army" way and not safe enough. Apparently, if you're getting shot at you're allowed to take more risks when getting out of the helicopter / down the cliff. Of course, a burning building would also qualify.

Anyway, I was quickly informed of the virtue of fig-eights and break bars, as well as harnesses made out of webbing. Now, I'm way too fat and weak to be trying to dissapate that much heat energy over my body.

If it ever comes down to it, I'll be takin' that harness while you slide on down. Thanks in advance! <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I actually met my wife on a camping/caving trip also. She was a real sport until I married her... alas, now she "doesn't have any interest in that kind of thing anymore." Sounds like you got a good one.

One thing everyone is overlooking in an escape rappel from a World Trade Center scenario is that rappelling down is only half the battle - if you're 50-60 floors up, you have to get back INSIDE. Modern office window glass isn't bullet proof, but it's the next best thing. What's the point of rappelling down 4 or 5 floors if you're then left dangling on the rope as it slowly melts from the intense heat?

Windows in my office in WTC were thick enough to take a direct hits from all the debree coming from the first plane crash. And yes even if you did get out you are right about not being able to get back in. Now BASE jumping requires experience but this doesn't:

parachute static


It's a static line simple canopy. You attach the line to something heavy and jump out. Better than nothing, again assuming you can get the window open.

Here another example of the office chute.

parachute

Again the emphasis on these items is that you don't need special training. Obviously if you ever did jump and was forced to use one of thses office parachutes your chances of survival would be greater.

Matt

If I were preparing for this sort of situation, I would get enough line to reach all the way to the ground from wherever my office would be. 500-600 feet is a longish rappel but quite doable with the proper equipment. Of course, shorter distances are much more practical.

Most climbers or cavers soon learn, one way or another, the importance of having a rope that is long enough.

Well, as I hope I made clear, I rappel with saner techniques now. I even bought one of those super padded rescue seats for situations when I was on rope for a long time.

I'll bet if our wives got together, they would agree that we are rapelling enough, without learning any new techniques.... <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Heh, I still use a 60/40 parka, and that's how I rappeled countless times - all the not-roped-in varients. It's a very handy thing to know. And the only harnesses we used were Swiss seats made from laid rope. We taught it up into the early 80's (not the only technique, to be sure). Try these expedients with a "casualty" tied on piggy back - now, that burns your butt and gives the brake hand a good workout...

Swiss seats are fast and do the job fine for a short time on rope. Tubular nylon webbing tied seats are less uncomfortable but take a lot longer to tie from scratch, eh? BSA standards have us teaching both types (not with laid rope, of course), but in our program we usually have ample commercial harnesses to go around after the familiarization with tied harnesses. Again, I think these are useful things to know.

(We must be a bunch of fossils... er, sorry, Don...)

My paradigm is cold weather climbing, although I've done precious little of that for several years. I've used a "diaper" type harness with a "padded" waist for many years, usually with a tubular nylon chest "harness" clipped in because I hang wrong side up naturally. Padding is much more comfortable even in hot weather - like when I'm in the harness most of the day training/aiding others. Wife uses same style, but that's mostly follow-the-leader - she had not climbed much before a few years ago.

Check out RIT-500 and RIT-900 lines (Sterling Rope trademarks, but others make similar ropes). The RIT-500 meets NFPA criteria for self-rescue lines. And there are other "high" temp lines available that would be fairly suitable for the long scary rappel from a high-rise office building. They are all a bit pricey IMHO, but if the urban canyonlands are where one works... personal choices. I suggest folks figure out expedient anchorage ahead of time so they don't fetch up short - a round turn on a desk that won't fit out the window will take at least a story's worth of additional line (and I would for sure pad the edges!)

I don't like brake bars - you spelunkers can keep them, LoL. Sort of the same reason I don't teach very many folks the Muenter hitch, if you follow me, let alone carabiner brakes. If you can afford the rope, a figure 8, rescue 8, or ATC varients are plenty cheap, eh? I'd stick with NFPA certified stuff for an office stash - save the lightweight stuff for climbing - but that's me.

"Hasty rappels" - that's what we termed them - fond memories for me and I think they are techniques that should be learned and practiced in "safe" environments. Much enjoyed your posts on this thread.

Regards,

Tom

I don't know how effective or "reasonable" these are, but I came up on this site last night searching for materials/supplies.

It's a site for a personal parachute for those people in high rise buildings.

I don't know if this is a goofy product or not, but you all in NYC may have an interest in it...it's pretty pricy. It would seem that a fire updraft or wind would slam you back into the building or into the fire or something, but I'm by no means an expert.

http://www.evacuchute.com/

I appreciate all of the technical rappeling, parachuting and evacu8 and similar hood devices information.

What I recall from various high-rise fires is the vision of people coming out of the building with soot on their nose & burning eyes.

A dust mask costs a few dollars & goggles a few more. I have to realize my financial situation and try to put it in perspective. How much smoke is going to enter through a dust mask? How effective are dust goggles? Any more ideas on dust masks & smoke goggles? What is the best, inexpensive smoke goggles? Is fogging really a problem?

Thank you!
Xavier Phx, AZ

I love it!!!!

Screw ropes & harnesses.

I would get the pilot model, I don't like the static line idea.

Brilliant idea that.

Mike

Cheap solution.

Swimming goggles and hold your breath. Or

EVACU8 smoke hood.

Dust masks don't work but may give very limited protection, the chemicals in smoke will kill you if trapped long before you burn anyway.

For 60-80 dollars the smoke hood is a good investment. If the event happens you'll wish you didn't go out partying that night and bought the smoke hood instead.

Mike

This thread has been pretty hypothetical for me - I haven't ever worked in a building over two stories high. In fact, some of the archeological sites I have worked on have been further off the ground than any of my offices.

But for lots of people, this is real life. It would seem that a system adapted to these special circumstances (especially rope capable of resisting high temps - not a characteristic of most climbing ropes), easily donned harnesses and fool-proof descenders would be workable. I was just looking at the web page for one of the parachute systems which stated that theirproduct could be used as low as 130 feet. This makes me think that for 150 feet and lower, I would plan on a rappel, higher than that a parachute would be the way to go. Or just move to the country.

I kind of agree with you about carabiner brake bars - I don't like them at all, unless they are deployed on a rappel rack. Used there, they work fine. A rappel rack is my preference for long rappels, or any rappel where I need to be able to carefully control my speed or stop at a precise point ( as in aiding an injured individual on a cliff). A Petzl Stop is a close second, but I just haven't had that much experience with it.

Feel free to call me a fossil - after all, studying them is how I have made my living. And, after all, you have to survive a while in order to get to the point where you merit the term... <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

One caveat here...

If you plan on preparing for the scenario where the smoke/flames are already on your floor before you can act, your going to have to train with all that garb. Whether its rappelling gear or a parachute, you're gonna have to actually work out putting on the harness and safely "hooking in" and exiting in low light conditions while wearing a hood.

If rappelling is the option you choose, perhaps you can hook up with some local cavers in your area. You'll learn pretty quickly how to put on the gear in the dark that way!

If you go with the parachute (NOT what I would do, but to each his own), then you'll have to invent a drill or two for donning the harness while wearing something over your face.

I sure wouldn't count on either technique to save my life without a little practice. <img src="images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I never cared for brake bars either... I have a set and know how to use them, but I always felt like they were overrated. I guess if I were doing a 600' rappel into a pit while wearing an 80 lb pack, I'd want it. But I never found myself in that situation in the Cumberland Gap.

My rescue-8 has always been more than enough. I even had to pull some frozen chick off the side of a cliff and bring her down with it. It was even more than enough for that job.

Oh, I just remembered! I did use my brake bar once when I thought it was truly handy. I tied it to a tree and used it to slowly lower a couple hundred pounds worth of equipment down a mountain face. Somehow I think my rescue-8 would have worked there too, but I felt better having more "control" on that one.

Like hikerdon, this is all hypothetical to me... I think there's a 20 story building around here somewhere (downtown), but I don't work in it. Even my house is a ranch! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sure... I'll just put in a request to the building manager.

"Ah, sir. We'd like to rappel out the 9th floor and send someone out the window with a parachute on 57. When can we schedule that for?"

-LOL <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Is there any type of line that anyone would recomend?

Or is there a pre-made kit with line and harness that would be compact enough to leave at an office?

yeah I submited an order for 2 parachutes... still waiting for the answer... damn slow moving purchasing dept! I'm on the 20th floor as opposed to 46 in WTC so my parents kind of sleep better.

Matt

Building manager: "As soon as the flying pigs submit a flight plan, we'll know when there'll be open air space..."

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's what I would do...

Get two 120' lengths of Green Line rope:
Green Line - MajorSurplusNSurvival.com

Get 6 Caribineers (2 sets):
3 Caribineers - MajorSuplusNSurvival.com

Take one of your two lengths of rope and cut it into 6 20' sections for swiss seats. Make sure you sear the cut ends of the rope with a lighter so that they don't fray over time. I always wrapped the ends with electrical tape as an extra precaution. Throw it all in a cheap WalMart backpack.

Learn how to tie swiss seats quickly and practice with the equipment till you're comfortable. This should get up to 6 people out of 11 stories. You could also use one of the caribineers as a quick link if you've got a good anchor point to hook in to. Tie a figure-8 knot in one end of your rappelling rope and put the caribineer through the loop.

That's the safest (yet cheapest) way to be prepared. If you're willing to spend more, here's some upgrades (in rough order of importance):
1) You could drop the extra coil of rope and get climbing harnesses (however many you need).
2) Locking carabineers, but if you're in the dark in a hurry it may not matter - you might not take the time to lock it anyway.
3) You could get figure-8's and have them threaded into the top end of the rope. Then you could just hook into the lowest one on rope and go!
4) You could buy better rope, but as a one-shot escape rope Green Line is more than adequate. I used it as my primary stuff for years and I'm still here to talk about. But there are better ropes (higher breaking strength, smoother, etc.) out there.

OK, how's that for a start? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since we keep talking about it, I went ahead and found a link. The instructions look about right to me. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How to Tie a Swiss Seat

The way I figure it. If you are in a non government building less than 20 stories you are not a target anyway.

Large buildings in major cities are the target as well as gov instalations, nuclear facilities and a large crowd complex's .

If your low building is attacked and you survive the impact you have a pretty good chace of getting out anyway ie: Pentagon

Its the tall buildings that your screwed.

Sorry climbers.
I be damed if I am waiting around trying to figure out knots, homemade harnesses and tie off points when I am already out a window floating down in seconds.

Military pilots are not issued ropes for a reason.

No matter how you cut it chutes are faster and a more convenient way of getting on the ground from great heights.

Or else they should rename it the 82 rapelling division.

Did anyone actually watch those video's?

Mike

Yeah, its that being-caught-in-the-crosswind,-smacked-against-the-building-and-plummeting-to-my-death-as-the-chute-folds-up thing that bothers me... <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jumping out of a plane is a little different than jumping out of a building, to wit:
1) Its not very feasible to try and rappel 5000+ feet while moving laterally across the ground at 200 mph.
2) There is nothing underneath a flying plane that can interfere with a chute.
3) When you're at 5000+ feet and your primary chute fails, you have a good 30 seconds to cut away and pull your secondary. This can't happen at 300 feet - time to impact: 4.3 seconds. <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I also agree that this is a low-probability emergency. But if I worked in a high-rise I'd at least give the matter some thought. And this site is about being prepared, isn't it?

Oh yeah, and since we agree this is a pretty low-probabilty emergency, would you rather buy $100 worth of climbing gear (that you can use for other things) or a much more expensive piece of specialized equipment?

hey to wit:

The risks of a chute are no greater than repelling out of a burning inferno. When the flames are at your back you will want a chute!

Those chutes are designed to survive bumping up against a building. They are not high performance ram air chutes. More of a training chute for dummies, much safer.

There are huge risks jumping out of any plane at any height.
A building is no different.

I have jumped out of choppers at less than 500ft many times (have you?) and it is no different than 5000 only quicker landing.

Yes, rapelling may work and chutes may work. I prefer the chute directing thank you. Further more, I value my life more than $100 for basic climbing gear. If I thought my life was at risk because of who I worked for and where it is $2k is a small price to pay.

The different variables to this risk assesment are endless this is a stupid either or conversation anyway.

I just prefer the chute thanks,

Mike

Getting a little snippy there, dude... why the hostility?

Jumping out of a building is no different than jumping out of a plane? I can only disagree. I've already given my explanation for my position on this.

To answer your parenthetical question, I have rappelled off of cliffs as high as 300 feet, in the dark, and in the rain, and in constricted conditions (pits). I have parachuted out of planes. But I have never jumped out of helicopters at 500 feet... in other words, I wasn't in the military.

I spent my youth learning physics and advancing the knowledge base of this country. You may not agree, but I think that is at least as noble of a pursuit as being trained to defend it physically... does the fact that I am not a rescue jumper or an airbourne ranger invalidate my opinions on this board? Alas, I cannot "out macho" you, but I would hope that I could still have something to offer here.

Would I spend virtually any amount of money to protect my life? Certainly. But the financial argument is valid because money I spend on a parachute that I will probably never use, is money that I could have spent on tools that might be more useful to my survival.

And if this conversation is stupid, then why are you still keeping up your end of it?

If you're trained to BASE jump, or at least skydive, then go for it! But I think the risk of using a parachute untrained are pretty dang high... even with a canopy chute. I'm told a fair percentage of active and experienced BASE jumpers die every year. I think that percentage is much higher than say, mountaineers. I can look up the hard numbers for you if you like, but it might be better if you do the research yourself. That way you don't have to take my word for it. If you can prove me wrong, then I will gladly and humbly "stand corrected."

I'm not getting snippy haha.

Your the one who wrote" to wit".

Anyway, there is merrit for both ideas for sure.

And yes you do have much to offer this converstation. I am not slamming you or your rational personally. No disrespect toward you.

We all get caught up prooving our own preferences I guess.

My opinion stops here and now on this subject. I'm tired haha.

I just know what chutes can do and am comfortable in their performance in this scenario.

Mike

Note to self: In future, don't use phrase "to wit" when replying to "Mike" in "Survival Forum"!

Got it! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One question.Most highrises have windows that don't open and are VERY hard to break,thick tempered glass and all.So just how are you planning to parachute or reppel out??

Good Question.

Until I figure it out. I don't know the properties of highrise glass.

Maybe someone can help us out with that one.

Maybe a fire axe?

Maybe spraying it with a fire extinguisher to freeze it and make it brittle?

Maybe a certain tool for shattering glass is needed?

Putting your bosses head though it?

Mike

This is a serious consideration, in the building that I work in, this is further complicated due to the windows being double paned safety glass, plus a sheet of high strength plastic sheeting that is applied to the interior side as added insurance to keep glass from flying around in the event of it breaking. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Thankfully, I work on the ground floor of this 3 story building, and am generally within 50 feet of one of the main exits. That did not prevent me from recommending the EvacU8 to our safety comittee, and then getting one myself when the idea was initially shot down.

I've seen photos of this stuff on glass where serious bullets were shot at it, and it still did not break. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Humor & Muse mode on... <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> hope your bosses have hard and pointy heads and a lot of muzzle energy when they impact the glass. <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm, guess that booger ups my plan! I guess a minor's pick or fire axe is plan "B." <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Yep, and what happens to all that glazing when it's broken? Tempered glass can be broken if you approach things the right way - the laminated stuff is going to be really difficult to deal with in some respects, though.

This is not an issue for me (Not in a high rise and my window opens), but if it was, I would go talk to the guys at a commercial glass shop. I could probably get answers at any of the local places, but there is one in particular locally that I would trust to have the absolutely straight scoop. I wouldn't try to do this on the telephone unless you already know the guys - a visit in person, a flattering (and sincere?) interest in getting a "shop tour" and seeing what they do and how they do it, then the pointed (pun intended) question(s).

How serious is this discussion? I've thought of a way to deal with the laminated tempered glass plus possibly the "falling glass" consideration for the same but it would not be an instant breach and it would involve either some power tool investment (faster breach) or tooling investment (slower breach).

Blast-resistant windows (hardened buildings) beyond the laminate mentioned are probably not going to be easy to get questions answered about.

How many folks actually work in buildings above the 5th story? Y'see, that's about where it gets especially tricky in building design & construction from a life-safety standpoint - most Fire Departments don't have access much beyond that from the exterior - that's the real world.

And the other part - as Mike mentioned - "Is the building I work in likely to be a target or collaterally damaged from an attack on a nearby target?"

I have no doubt that this is a very real consideration for some of us - but surely it is a fairly small percentage. Or not - I don't know. My building (when I'm in it) is probably more likely to be struck by a large meteorite and if I can make the grassy area to the West I can probably survive a jump from the top story anyway, albeit probably with some injury... but there are such things as fires and other horrors. I guess I don't feel it merits more thought/effort for me than that - and I've got folks I'm responsible for, anyway. <shrug>

For those who are at risk, my first suggestion is to read the Engineering News Record articles on the WTC 9/11 attacks, read related Code journal articles, and then investigate your means of egress from the various areas of the building you are likely to be in IF something nasty happens. My second thought is that Hikerdon is on-target - high-temp rescue lines for up to a certain height, then escape parachute above that - if you deem the risk to be high. Solving a window problem will be trivial after you do that bit of research - take a Saturday morning at the library for the raw research and another Saturday at your place of work to investigate and note your building's features or lack thereof.

Aside to Mike - not a lot of travel time in a 500' jump, eh? Esp from a helo. Me, too. I think Jump School and JumpMaster training were the only times I jumped at 1,200' - we stayed under 1,000' for tacticals, or so I recall - and I for sure remember the low-altitude jumps! I never jumped with any of your units, although some of your folks jumped from C-130s with me a few times. Enjoyed working with 2 PPCLI off and on over the years - but that was all a long time ago.

Tom

Has anyone had any experience with the ultra thin / light micro line?

By reading all the posts it would seem that a chute might be better from above the 30th or so floor but the static line below. Mike... what do you think is the lowest floor a chute would open from?

One advantage that a rope may have would be that others could use it (Benmann)... would this be posible w/ the ultra thin line? Or would it simply cut / burn there hands causing a fall? Benmann?

Ayers,

Nice to hear from another jumper.

I think the LALO jumps were more for cost recovery than anything else. More jumps per day less fuel for the helos than the hercs. Only one thing more scarey than a 500 ft drop from a helo, a 500 ft drop at night. Man that ground threatens your manhood real quick.

We dropped in with your 82 Division a few times, very much spoiled with your brand new modern gear compared to ours haha. We got revenge when they were introduced to the F18 sized mosquito population up here. Great bunch of ladds and had a hard time with our beer too haha.


Them were the days........ <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mike

No experience with super-thin lines and I'd like to keep it that way, LoL!

I sense some jargon interference: "static line". It could have two meanings in this discussion.

1) Parachutes - "Static Line" is what you attach to the place you are jumping from (airplane, helo, building, etc.) The act of falling/jumping causes the parachute to deploy - the deployment bag is attached to static line which is attached to the building and as you fall away, the parachute is dragged out and (hopefully) inflates. This is as opposed to grabbing a "ripcord" (mis-nomer term) and yanking it to deploy a drogue 'chute that will drag out the deployment bag and parachute. The "static line" is what you hook up to what you're jumping from before you jump out.

2) Ropes/climbing - "Static line" as opposed to "dynamic line" - eh, fellow climbers forgive me - static line is what you might use to rappel on, rescue folks with, raise and lower gear/people. etc. as opposed to "dynamic line" which is what you would be attached to for climbing where you might expect to take a fall that is fetched up short by the rope. Generally speaking, static lines elongate less than dynamic lines under load and may or may not be fall-rated - dynamic lines tend to feel more flexible to the hand and are fall-rated. And the distinctions narrow with certain brands and types of rope these days - anyway, it's a kind of rope, and one that would be suitable for descending from a building, all things remaining equal. (And yes, one could also use a dynamic line for that purpose...)

Then there's the laid (twisted) nylon lines I used to climb/rappel on - think of those ropes as "giant rubber bands" - not something I am afraid of but not rope I would recomend to anyone who didn't cut their teeth on it - I can use it but have no use for it, if you follow my meaning.

Hmmm... "parts is parts..." nope - the rope distinction is not simply useage, but it's not terribly important for this application. But some of us think of ropes when we hear "static line", others think of parachutes - and confused folks like me think of ropes AND parachutes, order depending on context of the conversation...

Sheesh! Hope I haven't confused this worse!

Gulli,

Thats a loaded question.

It depends on any number of factors.

What type of chute?
What type of deployment rig for the chute?
Static Line or free fall?
Wind currents.
Deployment timing.
The individual.

While I am no modern parchute god by any stretch, military chutes vary greatly from civilian models because they have very different purposes. I can tell you, you fall MUCH farther than you want on any jump.

The website mentioned earlier have safety chutes that are somewhat similar to military but not quite. The shape of those chutes are very forgiving to novices and open very gently.

To some what answer your question. The bare minimum I would jump any chute under "normal" circumstances is 200 ft or 20 stories lets say. With the right chute and training you could jump down to 100 ft or 10 stories approx but thats pretty much the limit and very risky at that.

The way I figure it, under 15 stories you can be rescued many other ways or pile down the stairs. That height is a good repelling height too.

Its good to note that a majority of people killed in the twin towers were trapped above the plane impact floors WAY up.

A chute would have been nice to have IMHO. Just get out on the roof and step off.

Now, if we can just get those windows open hmmm.

Mike

Tom,

Speaking strictly "off the cuff here" as I have yet to do any testing, and have not been into the local glass shops or websites yet.

My thought to exiting through one of the film covered windows would be to use a "sharp" of some type, anything ranging from handy office scissors, EDC, corner of metal drawers etc. to try and scribe a circle or several arcs or lines to form a polygon of some sort, then attempt the center punch methodology. Once the smaller opening is available, other objects could be used to lever / wedge / pry / curse / push / pull / catch breath / use CO2 fire extinguisher if available / foiled again heavy duty exhortatoins if no CO2 then a regular ABC as a blunt instrument to make my way through the laminated inside pane then the outside pane.

I concur with your post and that there are ways to do these (weird to non ETS folks) type of things.

At first glance, (pun intended) it would be a pain. However, the subject is a valid one, and I will quietly peruse it a bit more on the research side. This will take time though.

Regards,
Comanche7

gulliamo...

I'm not sure what the micro line is or how its properly used. I've certainly never used it for rappelling. If you can find me a link (I've gone back through the thread to find a reference, but I couldn't), or explain it in a little detail I'll be glad to give you my impressions.

Here's what I can tell you... generally thinner rope is "faster" in a rappel. Although it wouldn't surprise me that they're now making 5mm rope with a sufficient strength for rappelling, I wouldn't recommend it for the unitiated. You might find yourself getting to the ground a little faster than you wanted. Until we learn more, I wouldn't go smaller than 8 mm, preferably more like 10 mm (or 3/8").

I also forgot to mention that along with a swiss seat and a carabineer, each escaper will need a cheap pair of work gloves (with leather palm). Otherwise the rope will burn your hands, probably to the point that you wont be able to hang on. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Do tell me more about this micro line, you've actually gotten me very interested and I'd like to hear about it.

Personally, I have to wonder how many of the World Trade Center victims would have died anyway if they had gone out of one of the top floors with a parachute on Sept. 11. That high up, in those windy conditions ... to me, that's one of those "bend over and kiss your butt goodbye" scenarios.

You may be right...

I now seem to remember some statements about how they tried to get rescue helicopters to the roof, but couldn't fly through the smoke/crosswind/updrafts.

The only thing that may have worked is a running swan dive from the roof in a hood, fall through area with all the smoke/heat and then pop the chute. Even then I'd want a ram-air chute so that I could steer clear of obstacles and not just let the wind carry me wherever!

I doubt any of the victims just happened to have a performance chute and an escape hood on them that day.

You may be correct in your thoughts of surviving a roof chute leap on 911.

Tho
Helicopter flying conditions are not indicitive of the ability to parachute in those same conditions.

Then again I bet 100% of the people who died would rather have burned in with a chute than in a rubble pile.

The memory of people leaping to their deaths (with no chute)to avoid the flames is something I will take to my grave.

Mike

I've only parachuted once in my life (been there done that <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ) but what from what I've read and seen about "base jumping", even experience parachutists would have difficulty.

How far out would you have to be from the building? It's not a case of pulling the ripcord as soon as your feet clear the windowsill - if your chute inflates too close and contacts the building, then (best case) it will catch on a projection and you'll end up dangling like Neville Longbottom, or (worst case) it'll collapse and you'll drop to your death.

If I were inclined to worry about this (currently I work in a one-storey building, so I'm not), I would prefer to buy the smallest, lightest, most portable hang-glider available and learn how to fly it. H-g's are designed to leap from solid ground (parachutes aren't) and they are probably easier to control on landing. (The rectangular chutes you see at airshows, used by sport jumpers, are easier to manoeuvre but I suspect take longer to deploy; hence the "evacuchute" uses the WWII circular design - much more reliable (and hence used for sport jumpers emergency chutes)but I suspect harder to control if you find yourself being blown toward the 200' high crane on that nearby construction site.

ISTM that hang-gliding off the roof of a high-rise is at least do-able; parachuting seems almost guaranteed to fail, IMO.

I have used a "Quik Kut Glass Removal Tool" to take out auto windshields, I've also used sawzalls but I can't see keeping that in a bag under my desk, <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

The sawzall takes about 45-50 seconds if you've had practice, the Quik Kut takes about 2 minutes. YMMV

The Quik Kut did a nice job but it did take a little work. (But if you have to use it you'll probably on an adrenalin rush so it doesn't matter)

You will need to have a suction cup or some other means to pull the glass inside not out on to rescuers.

Nothing wrecks my day more than having glass fall on me at a fire scene.

Quik Kut

FYI I have no association with this company I've just used thier tool.

Never used it (thats why i'm asking) but a quick search brought up this...

http://www.neropes.com/techdata/tech_cord.htm

http://www.neropes.com/maxim_climbing/micro_rappel.htm

Wow, thats some small rope <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Iceman154,

Thanks for the info. Looks interesting, albeit a bit hard to fit into an Altoids tin. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But hey, my sawsall won't fit in it either. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What do they cost? I tried poking around on their website just now. It was really running slow and locking up on me, I'll retry in the daylight hours.

Comanche7

Well, that second link looks like a pretty snazzy rig. Looks like it would work just fine. But because its a small diameter rope (as we've already discussed), you'll have to buy their harness and their specialized braking system. With a breaking strength of 5000 pounds and a brake plate with 6 turns in it, I wouldn't be afraid to use it.

Could be very pricey... but it is compact. Might be worth it if room/weight is a big consideration. It's impressive!

True it won't fit in an Altoids Tin but neither will the 150' of rope. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BUT, it will store nicely in the BOB I keep under my desk disguised as a softside briefcase. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I maintain the PCs for the local 911 center and they actually have EVAC-U8's velcroed (is that a word) to the side of the radio consoles.

Now if these people have to leave (and I 've seen them in some pretty stressful situations) than TSHTF, big time. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey, the brief case is a good idea!

As far as I'm concerned "velcroed" is a word. I concur with your thoughts on their leaving. Ouch! When they start bailing out, then it really must be seriuos.

Comanche7

And now for something completely different

After reading this rather lengthy debate of rappel vs. BASE jump I just had to register and weigh in. For the ultimate highrise escape rig checkout www.gekkomat.de It's a little pricey and a tad bulky to stick under the desk but it seems like the best hypothetical solution to me. Besides, I wouldn't have the guts to swan dive off the roof and I wouldn't trust those without a swiss seat to not cut my line <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

eodman,

Welcome to ETS. Thanks for sharing the link. That is really neat!

Regards,
Comanche7

Agreed!

It is a cool idea. Looks like if there's a downside, it might be that it would be a little slow. Not sure how long it'd take to climb down a couple hundred feet with that rig. You'd probably need to be in pretty good shape physically also.