OK, I was willing to stay out of this whole thing until you made that statement. Don't let those "so called" environmentalists brainwash you. That's the problem with most "activists", they almost never get their facts straight. Most are uneducated misty-eyed college kids, or overgrown frustrated hippies. And they're leaders just use lies to fan the flames of activism so that they get more and more support (contributions!). These are the same people that advocated nuclear power in the sixties, killed the nuclear power industry in the seventies, and are now whining about "global warming" (due to fossil fuels)! Now solar energy is supposed to be our way out, but they forget to tell you about all the heavy metals and arsenic used in the production of solar cells. When people start building industrial sized solar plants they'll be whining about THAT!They also forget to mention that that technology cost 10 times (80 cents per kWh) as much as what we use today. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Progress is real... period. Even the "problems" we face in modern life are nothing compared to what our ancestors had to overcome. "Global Warming", which many notable scientist even doubt really exists, is nothing in terms of a threat to mankind as say, the Bubonic Plague... or surviving the Ice Age. But since the Ice Age and the Plague are "natural" gifts from "Mother Earth", I guess they're somehow OK compared to manmade disasters. Unless you happen to have been one of the people to die from it! <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

And life expectancy relative? No bud, that's absolute! I am 38 years old and figure my life is only half over. If I had lived as a citizen of the Roman empire, as cushy as it got just a mere 2000 years ago, I would most likely already be dead.

Its fine if you wanna be a starry-eyed dreamer about a future where we all live in harmony with Gaea. But you ought to at least show a little gratitude to the people that gave you a lifestyle where you have the leisure time to sit around in your heated/air-conditioned house pondering such a state. We couldn't have even had this conversation 200 years ago, we would have been too busy laying up firewood or hunting for food.

Benman WOW,

Your off on a tangent.

I never said I was a tree huger or environmentalist haha.

Don't read too much into a persons posts.
I like the modern times and will enjoy my old age like you.

I am simply comparing the success of man for a million years before cell phones and that modern society is in its infancy still. The next chapters on humans have still to be written and if you think they have been already you are the delusional one.

The fact we all post on this website means we all have uncertainties. This prooves life expectancy is not absolute.

We all can be snuffed out at any time by whatever means manmade or nature who knows. If you think the world is getting safer, well we agree to disagree then. We are 1 drug resistant virus away from extinction in my opinion, you think about that in your heated house.

Mike

OK, so technology is a veneer over the harsh realities of life and were it stripped away we would all have to revert to living as we did for millenia. But as you say what you carry in your head is yours to keep. In a long term scenario (really long term) where the infrastructure that makes it possible to buy a replacement ceramic filter cartridge for my gravity fed filter has been renedred useless. (asteroid impact, holocaust etc. - (btw this steps out of the scope for this site sorry)) You will still be quite a bit ahead of your ancestors since you have an opportunity to understand basic hygene. Something as simple as washing hands and burying waste is responsible for increasing life expectancy by quite a lot. Before the cow-pox vaccine quaranteen was used quite-effectively on a community scale but nothing could be done for the individual to protect against small-pox other than hand-washing and face masks. Both of these ideas are very new. No need to face a total reversion. Basic individual survival skills are only the barest beginnings of what you want to take in your head into a long term survival situation. Community sanitation, water purification, waste management, smelting and smithing, basic electronics such as how to build a generator etc... would be as necessary an addition to your mental preparations as the knowledge of how to build a fire with friction. After all how many generations do you want to wait before your descendants have electric light and central heating?

As you note we have wandered quite far afield.

Mike,

I apologize for over-reacting, dude. Its just that I hear statements like "so called scientific improvements" and "life expectancy is a relative term" and my hackles go up. Its the same kind of thing I hear out of my Rastifarian, 20-something nephew who has plenty of scorn for society but rarely contributes to it in any meaningful way. Its nice that these people want to save the planet (whatever THAT means), but they need to actually get out and do something instead of criticizing everyone else.

If by saying life expectancy is relative you mean that it is an average and a great many of us will fall short of the mark, then I agree.

And its certainly true that a relatively small asteroid could wipe us out like the dinosaurs. But I think fewer of those threats exist now than in the past. Kracotoa (sp?) might have been enough to wipe us out in the right place and at the right time, but not any more. It might cause a lot of suffering for a lot of people, but it wouldn't threaten the species at large.

As far as drug resistant viruses go... that's a discussion in and of itself. I do disagree with you on that one, but I'll leave it to some of the M.D.s and paramedics we have on board to discuss that one.

Again, sorry to all for taking the conversation out into the weeds!

Ben

Hey Benman,

I have been accused of being a lot of things but never a tree hugging rastifarian haha LMAO.

Liberal I am not.

And yes thats what I meant about the life expectancy bit. Sorry for the original confusion.

A book for you to read that gave me nighmares is.

"The Demon in The Freezer" Published last year.

It may help clarify the virus situation for you.

Scarey stuff.

Mike

Mike,

Sorry it's taken me a little long to answer...had to go out of town. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No arguing from me either...I think we've got a pretty good discussion going.

After thinking about this some....I think I see where our disagreement comes from (perhaps). I believe you're thinking that I'm packing dental floss and 10 matches and depending on this to carry me through a long term survival situation. The stuff that rides with me each day of the year is for daily survival. You know....I use the dental floss to clean my teeth and have been known to use my Leatherman to carve a match into a toothpick <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The purpose of the little scenerio was to see if you see daily carry items as a benefit in a long term survival situation. Will the things you have with you, in any way, enhance your ability to survive for an extended period of time.

It seems that you're treating all gear as being totally useless and disposable after a short term use. My point of view is that gear is useful, even long after the initial use is gone. Also, anything that you have with you in a survival scenerio (long or short) can be uesful given a little thought.

Your comment: "Just explain to me how your gear after its used up is any good to you. On the 13th hr you have no light. After 4 liters of water you're boiling yours like me."

Firstly....I don't think I'm going to turn on the ol Photon and leave it running just to see how long it'll last <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. You know...use when necessary....I've got a small light that lasts for months with logical use....you've got a knife. I drink my water...so am I going to chunk my bottle and hope I don't get in trouble for littering? No...I've got a storage bottle capable of collecting and transporting some of that boiled water...you've still got a knife. After I've built a couple of dozen fires with my trusty lighter....I've still got a pretty good spark thrower....you've got a knife. After I've flossed my teeth with the dental floss....I've got a means of attaching a gaff hook to a stick to help with fishing chores...you've got your knife. I've got my ol briefcase...or do I have something that enables me to collect and carry more firewood...or more food....you've still got that trusty knife. I've got a small saw that after it helps me build a shelter it turns into a snare for providing a little food...you've got a knife. Do you see where I'm going with this? ANYTHING that you have with you is an asset if you look for alternative uses. Where you're carving and chopping to have makeshift tools and supplies....I'm concentrating on what's ahead. Yea...eventually, I'll have to have the same type of tools in a long term survival setting....but the reality is that most true life survival settings don't follow along the lines of Castaway.

As I said before (and I think we agree on this point)....you've got to have the basic knowledge behind primitive living skills as backup...but why suffer when, with just a little planning and preparation, you don't have to?

I'll never suggest that equipment will take the place of knowledge....but with the right knowledge, you can make use of some of the wonderful advancements of technology (you know...like the P38 <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Kev,

Excellent points.

I guess I was thiking your scenario resembled the Castaway scenario you mentioned. You did say" long term".

And for the record I do only carry a SAK, bic lighter and large hanky in my "pants pocket".
And for the record I will eat have fire, water, shelter and survive pretty much the same as you just a little more effort is involved because of the lack of some basic frills.
The point is to "survive" right?

I do own all the frills you speak of in another kit but see no need to carry them in my "pants" pocket. I am not advocating naked Indian living by any means haha.
But it would be nice to know you could if you had to.

Still can't figure out the P38 tho, someone explain to me how this is a survival tool. I have a can opener on my SAK on my WAVE and a rock can be used if needed. I would think you could put the weight and space to use with another item of more value. I could be wrong someone set me straight please.

Mike

On the p38: I carry a PSK with all the frills in it in my pants daily and a FAK with about the same amount of bandages etc in the other front pants pocket. I carry a leatherman and a small folder on my keychain as you point out I am overly supplied with can opening equipment. I have tool enough to be fairly well equipped with my PSK only. Should I lose my leatherman and my keychain I still have 5 blades (two safty razors, two Xacto blades and 1 P38 with the long edge sharpened), 1 saw (wire saw), 2 spear tips( the aforementioned Xacto blades) .

The p38 without modification is a great can opener, a decent butchering tool for small game (the can opening blade can zip open a rodent quite handily), a spoon for eating the stuff from the can, (if you get the colemans adaptation on the p38 it's handle is mod'd as a spoon). The steel is not the best but it can take an edge that is adequate backup roughly equivalent to a sharpened dog-tag. Don't view any tool as simply what it was designed for - look at the other possible uses for the tool. I doubt that your "fist sized rock" can opener is anywhere near as versatile as the tiny little scrap of metal lovingly called the p38 (here is where the patriotic background music downs out all thought of disagreement!) <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

i have heared guys skinning rabbits with p-38's, screwing screws, opening cans ( duh ! ), opening bottle's , to strip wire, and cut other things with the small blade.....
i only open cans and had used to screw things with it...

and did i mansion i use it as one of mine ferrocium scraper ?

this site says some nice stuff about the P38
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml

and 38 uses of the p38 and some other info in this articel:
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/images/p38newspaper.jpg