It's a typical day at work. Suddenly, the floor/ground opens up and you find yourself in a sub-tropical environment. You've only got what was on your person at the time (no grabbing bags, coats, etc.). Can you make it for an extended period of time?

And I know...some may say this is invalid because we all prepare for different scenerios and environments. I'm just wandering if what we have with us could allow us to survive in a typical wilderness type setting.

At one time, my answer would have been "NO". When I first began getting "formally" prepared, I depended a lot on keeping useful items nearby..but not exactly on me. I depended a lot on my briefcase, my coat, my car or my home. Don't get me wrong...I still keep a lot of stuff in those places...but I now keep more with me on a daily basis.

As I sit at my desk typing...if the above scenerio were to occur, with me is the following:

Glock 23 with 1 extra mag.
Spyderco Endura
Small SAK, nail clippers & white Photon II all attached together.
Leatherman Wave
Bandanna
Wallet with bandaids, floss, safety pins and usual stuff.
Lighter
Ink pen
Keychain with CPR Microshield, small SAK, blue Photon I, keys
Small PSK (softsided case) which includes:
Candle (Trick birthday style)
Condom
Water pur tabs (4)
Matches (10) / striker
Needle (2)
Safety pins (2)
Bic lighter
Thread (10 ft...wrapped around lighter)
Spyderwire (10 ft...wrapped around lighter)
Medical tape (1ft...wrapped around lighter)
Fish hooks (10)
Sinkers (5)
Small compass
Small cotton balls (6)
Bandaids (6)
Wound wipes (2)
Asprin (2 packets)
Alcohol pads (4)
Wire saw
P38 can opener

Give me the chance to grab my coat, and I get an extra bandanna, gloves, a Surefire 6P, another lighter, 20 feet of para cord, an additional (and slightly larger) PSK, some hard candy and a CRKT Stiff KISS.

Let me take my briefcase (softside expandable) and I add a third PSK, a small fixed blade Buck, a small folding Buck, a Poncho, a small pack of kleenex, a roll of medical tape, a full water bottle, a bottle of water pur. tabs, 50 feet of para cord, a small tube of crazy glue, a mag block, a whistle, a large garbage bag,a small sewing kit, a mini-mag (AAA) with extra batts (2 sets), a pretty decent FAK, small bottle of hand sanitizer (great as a fire starter), a compass, some localized maps, a couple of magazines to pass the time and plenty of work to keep myself busy <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ooooh, thats a tough one <img src="images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I would have the following on me:
1. Benchmade 705 BT
2. a two AA Mini-Maglight.
3. Benchmade 5BLK rescue hook
4. Butane lighter
5. Wallet with all the regular stuff plus bandaides, Swiss Card, and metal money clip.
6. My cell phone (Model 720c Motorola)
7. Leatherman wave
8. Keyring with my keys, photon micro light 2, and a Leatherman Squirt S4.
9. A hand assembled first aid kit that fits in my back pocket.
10. On a seperate keyring is a CPR microshield, Flint firestarter bar, and a whistel/compass/thermometer thing.
11. A Back pocket survival kit made out of an altoids can, sealed with electrical tape.
11. An analog watch
12. A bandana or 2
13. Probibly my favorite pen

In the little back pocket survival kit I have:
-A small Swiss Army Knife
-Waterproof matches (one of which is wrapped in black thread) with 2 waterproof strikers.
-A few bandaids
-A few butterfly bandages
-Alchohol pad
-Folded heavy duty tinfoil
-Tweezers
- about a foot and a half of that thin flat white cord
- 2 different size saftey pins and a needle
- solid fuel tabs
- a Suunto wrist compass (minus the strap)
- a roll of dental floss
- bullion cube (Chicken flavored)
- a 2 inch length of natural fiber rope
- a P-38 can opener
- a small salt packet
- 2 razor blades
- A length of black electrical tape sealing the case
- The "altoids can kit" is kept in a little handmade soft leather "sheath" that stops it from wearing out my back pockets.

I would list the first aid kit contents but I don't feel like going through it since its packed pretty tight.

I would say I could survive, but I would have to do a lot of improv. I good machete might come in handy in a situation like that, but unfortunately I don't carry one in my pocket <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

1 good sharp knife is the only thing you should need.

Honestly my 6 inch belt knife (machette is ideal) and a gerber strike force is all I would need in that environment for a long term stay. The fire starter is only for convenience.

The jungle provides everything you need.

In a long term stay scenario your little bit of supplies would run out anyway then your left with the basics. Infections and injury will kill you long before you starve.

To be fare to the scenario my SAK and bic lighter should do me well for a while.

There are much tougher environments to survive in than a jungle.

Mike

"There are much tougher environments to survive in than a jungle."

Very true. But instead of true tropical...I was thinking along the lines of sub-tropical. In these areas, the temps can get pretty cool.

As for the 6 inch belt knife being the only thing you need...I guess that depends on the background of the person in question. I would have some serious reservations about totally depending on one knife for all my needs when it's a fairly simple matter to have a few handy items with you.

Also....in my daily work attire (hence the spirit of this little scenerio) , a 6 inch belt knife is a little difficult for me to add...a smaller fixed blade wouldn't be too much trouble...but I've already got a load on my belt! <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Kev,

I think you need to rethink your scenario.

How long is this scenario for?

I fail to see how 5 matches a 12 hr photon light and a power bar will help when your in this situation for more than a couple of days. Simple stuff in your pocket will only help you for so long then its up to you and your basic gear and brain to make the best of it.

You did say what is in your pockets or on you. So I assume its ranges from an altoids tin SK with a lighter and maybe a SAK or leatherman type deal. Most people do not carry much more than this in their pockets at any time. If you are talking about a larger kit then thats a different scenario all together.

Knife & Fire

Hell I know people that could pretty much live out their lives with a rusty tuna can lid. But they are the acception and certainly not the rule.

BTW, I am canadian so anything that isn't white is summer to me subtropic or not haha.

Mike

How do you carry all that? I have a Leatherman wave, cell phone and blackberry pager on my belt. AAA Maglite in back pocket, Wallet in other back pocket, keys and change in the other pockets. I used to carry a PDA and comb when I was a con$ultant and travaled to customer sites a lot. Even with just a few things I get called "batman" or inspector gadget". Seriuosly though, how can I carry more without my pants falling down or having pockets stuffed full. Where do you fit your stuff?

Funny you say that Eugene,

I dont even carry my keys in my pocket because I have a AAA minimag and compass themometer and leatherman micra and it will pull my pant down haha. My key chain is kept in my coat.

The following items are in my pant pockets about 365 days per year.

1 bic lighter
1 3 inch swiss army knife
1 wallet with swiss tool inside
1 bandana hanky
spare change
lint for fire starting haha
somedays I carry the leatherman on the belt

Given the scenario kevin gives. I am confident that I can go weeks in a warmer climate, but thats me.

Water purify tabs and tape and little nifty gadgets will run out in short time, then what? Of course they are nice to have but my life won't end because of the lack of a P38 can opener.
What is with the P38 can opener anyway?
Almost every list I read here has it, yes it opens cans. Like if i'm real hungry a can is going to stop me from eating the contents haha please. A fist sized rock solves that problem quicker than a can opener.

I swear that if you really need all this to "survive" you need more practice.

Makes me wonder how the indians even made it out of their tipee's.

Mike

I don't need all the stuff I carry but it makes everything easier. Also, a lot of the stuff is reusable or can be changed into something else. Sure the water purification tabs will run out but they last long enough to make/find another way to purify or gather water such as a still. Sure, I could get around without them but it makes everything much easier which can mean a lot in a survival situation. After all, if your going to be fustrated doing something as simple as building a fire it will be bad for your moral and your overall survival attitude. After all, Be Prepared <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
P.S. This is a P-38:
(let me know if you can't see it)

Paul,

I have used p38 openers in the military for 20 years and never ever thought of them as a survival tool.

I get the feeling people these days have this mortal fear of water being poisoned.
Yes, I do own and use filters and use iodine tabs. But I remember a day when we would dip the mug into the water of a well used lake full of pollutants and never got sick.

Remember to always drink purified or not. Deal with the consequences later if any. Makes you wonder if our lifestyles are so sterile that our bodies have lost the ability to fight common illnesses caused buy questionable water.

Again, the Indians drank giardia and crypto laced water and thrived long before iodine, Mexicans today eat tainted food their entire lives with no ill effect. Why? Because their bodies are tollerant to such bugs, we used to have this tollerance. Another argument for banning antibacterial soap, our stomachs are getting soft in this modern sterile society.

Mike

hehehe - Mike, when I lived in Central Alaska, we had a more diverse climate than you - 4 seasons, yup. Winter, June, July, and August - well, early August anyway...

Eugene,

Layed out in list format...it does sound like a bunch of stuff, but it's really not very weighty.

The Glock, admittedly, doesn't stay on my side all the time. Depending on what's going on at work (ie where I'll be and what I will be doing), the Glock usually ends up in the vehicle along with the extra mag.

The Spyderco is clipped to my front right pocket
The Wave is on my belt (right side)
The SAK/photon/nail clippers is in my left pocket.
The Bic is in my left pocket
The wallet is in my right back pocket
The bandanna and PSK ride in my back left pocket. (The PSK is a softsided pouch that looks kinda like a wallet...very similar size).

That's it....not a lot different from the description of daily carry items of other posters. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike,

How long is this scenario for?" Who knows....does that really matter? When you prepare for a situation in which you are trying to survive...do you prepare for a predetermined length of time? In real life scenerios...most modern survival situations are a pretty short term event and I prepare as such. In reality, the 5 matches (I carry 10 BTW <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and the 12 hour Photon will probally do me more good than the 6 inch belt knife. By the same token...I do try to practice primitive living skills and am constantly trying to learn new things....but I believe in using modern tools when possible and practical.

I think we all have to have a strong basis of knowledge in order to really be prepared for whatever scenerio. Yes...I can make fire without the aid of anything but a knife and a string....but why would I if I didn't have to? That knowledge base is important and you should never totally depend on modern conviences, but it's not a lot of trouble to carry a bic with you. Anything that I'm carrying isn't radically different from your list of things that rest in your pockets (according to your above list).

Kev,

I am not going to argue with you.

You said in your original post that this scenario length is "an extended period of time". Now you say its a short time frame. Which is it because it does make a difference?

After a day or 2 your convenience supplies are gone and your left with not much more than me. I can live that 2 days without light and 10 matches.

Just explain to me how your gear after its used up is any good to you. On the 13th hr you have no light.
After 4 litres of water you're boiling yours like me.

Don't even get me started on the photon vs belt knife comment.

You say "Anything that I'm carrying isn't radically different from your list of things that rest in your pockets (according to your above list). "

I suggest you look again at the 2 lists of what is in my pockets 365 days/yr.

SAK
Bic Lighter
Hanky
wallet with swiss tool
spare change

I think our lists are VERY different!

The point I am trying to make is this:

More people have died in the bush because of stupidity than not having a glock, photon light, dental floss and the all important survival tool "the P38 can opener".

Who would you bet on for a 6 month stay in the bush?
A 65 yr old trapper with one 6 inch belt knife.

Or a 25 yr old gearhead with 15 pounds of the best survival gear and a head full of rocks?

This all reminds me of the mini eco challenge in the Australia outback about 5 years ago which pitted 5 super fit techno racers against one 75yr old aboriginal man. the race was 100 miles across the worst desert in Australia. The eco racers had the best gear and support teams and the old man had a tin can with wire and a pocket knife. The race ended with the old man waiting at the finish line hours before the modern team. To add insult to injury, the eco team spent days in the hospital getting rehydrated and wounds tended too and the old man turned around and walked 100 miles home the next day.

I love packing a good survival kit like the next guy but practice a lot without it. Everything but the basic gear is comfort and convenience and only lasts so long then your back to basics.
Don't count on this stuff to keep you alive for any real length of time.

My opinion for what its worth.

Mike

For what it's worth the early indians had a much higher rate of infant mortality, a much shorter average life-span, and, according to fosil studies, were much less healthy than we, grew stunted and died of avoidable deseases (such as disentery caused by giardia) The rural agricultural mexican society of today enjoys similar statistics. When you spin the roulette wheel of arrogance and disrepect in regards to simple biohazards the statistics will catch up with you.

But your culture survived for 1000's of years with no environmental polution and you lived in harmony with your land.
Both taking and giving in the equal proportions.

I hope you are not suggesting they were wrong.

Mike

Between the rock-head gear-freak and the naked aborigine stands the well prepared well educated renesaince man who isn't afraid to shed his ludite tendencies long enough to carry some tools that would be difficult to improvise and not so techno dependant that he can't start a fire with available materials. Seems folly to me to live within easy reach of a bunch of durable and helpful tools and to choose to walk from there into the wilderness naked or even close to naked. Might be an interesting adventure if you have a support crew ready to help but not the sort of thing that I would volunteer for. Given that I can (and do) carry a wide range of helpful technology in my pockets such that it will be with me if I am dropped from a plane into a jungle un expectedly, why wouldn't I?

Seems to me that it is undeniable that our ancient ancestors actually had full civilizations or at-least tribal communities with nothing more than god gave them at birth for technology. That being said, they did spend a bunch of their energy and time inventing technology, teaching it to their young and preserving it so it wouldn't have to be re-invented and, yes, carrying it everywhere! Iodine tablets and boulion cubes will be gone quickly but a wire snare may be used a few dozen times if you are lucky and that might buy time to fabricate solid fiber snares from the vegetation. A squirrrell may be butchered with your teeth but if you have a blade it might be easier and leave you more time to create that long-lasting hardwood & sinew bow that your primitive idols used instead of the glock or similar firearm. In any long term scenario we will revert to technologies that can be replenished in the wild (the bow instead of the glock) The issue here is whether, in absence of the tribe, you will survive long enough naked of all technology to create the first instances of the primitive technologies that our ancestors used. You will quickly need to generate some weapons such as snares and bows and slings or you will starve. You will quickly need to generate or find fire supplies, I believe the two options here are flint or permanent tended fire if you are anywhere where moisture is a concern friction fires will become something you don't want to bother with. So you need to find some clay and bake up a fire basket. Yes you could get along for a while with a hide and some moss for a fire pouch to carry the all important embers. Let's quickly rundown the difficulties.

No technologies because of-course our ancestors did it so why can't we.

First you need fire - friction fire is possibly the answer here Well you've got no pivot unless you stumble upon a bone from some other carnivores activites. You've got no cordage so you must improvise here but there should be some plaitable fiber nearby (now fire is not day 1 but day 2)

Second you need shelter - or do you? In a sub-tropical jungle you might not need that much. Get a large leaf and cower from the rain-storms for a while.

Then you need water - well the aboriginals just drink the water so that's what we'll do. Cross your fingers and hope that you aren't one of the aboriginals who die early from disentery - might work but it doesn't work for all of them and they grew up on the stuff.

Now for hunting - well insects are tasty as long as you know which aren't poisonous. These make up a large part of the diet of many jungle dwellers and they are easy to catch so no tools needed.

Now how about dealing with those cannibalistic aboriginals who just found you tresspassing on their favorite hunting grounds. Did you learn their language? Do you look sufficiently like them that you will convince them that you are a long lost cousin comming back from walk-about?

A pocket full of stuff including but not limited to, steel tools: knife, wire-saw, snare wire, p-38 (remember why cargo cults exist) sewing needle, fish-hooks, sparking rod flint, (or bic lighter which will still spark for months after the butane is gone) , a couple of Xacto blades (make great improvised spear points among other things), small tin to cook in, some reasonably strong plastic items such as a 1 liter coke bottle, a few zip-locks, some zip-ties, a few tens of feet of nylong twine or paracord, some reasonably strong fishing line or dental floss, some nylon thread and your tools problems are dealt with for a year or more depending upon your level of proficiency and ability to care for them. These are durable things that are not replaceable with field-expedients. You can replace them functionally but at a much lower level of usability. If your scenario is one of awaiting rescue indefinately with the possibility of a short term horizon then the other items such as a Photon or chem light, a power bar, some iodine tablets, a large trashbag or two start to make sense. If I can treat the water I find with iodine for the first day or two while I improvise something larger than my altoids tin for boiling water I will be safer than if I can't and who knows, perhaps the SAR team will arrive before I start boiling water in a birch-bark pot.

I made no comments that were meant as judgement on their cultural values or environmental impact. I merely remarked that they lived significantly more difficult, shorter, less healthy, less well nourished, more desease ridden lives than we currently enjoy and that difference is strongly attributable to available technology and understanding. You can certainly envision using the knowledge of sanitation to improve the comfort and survivability of the cultures that you admire. Had they understood the health value of boiling thier water before drinking it or of washing their hands before they picked their noses they might have still chosen to live as harmoniously with the environment but they would have certainly lengthened the time they individually had to do that. If you are making the argument that all technologies based on mining minerals and refining ore are so damaging to the environment that they should be foregone for the sake of our harmoniuous relationship with the planet then I am certainly not qualified to respond. I haven't attempted to study that question at sufficient length to know any answer with certainty.

I notice that even you wouldn't consider yourself dressed without some artifacts of a highly advanced technological society such as batteries ( in your flashlight), stainless steel and medicines. These items are not created by tribal societies living in complete harmony with the land hunting and gathering only what they need and leaving no mark on the environment. They are developed by societies that include chemical fertilized agriculture, strip-mining, nuclear reactors, petroleum based transport systems, and toxic waste producing chemical plants (for the batteries) and landfills for the waste generated by all of the above.

Mini,

You are correct in many things you say. Of course I do not want to go back to the way it was.

That being said, in relevance to this topic of conversation I was pointing out that it is possible to survive very well with limited gear for extended periods.
How well someone fares in a survival situation is based more on whats in your head than in your pocket.
This was the point I was trying to make before you side tracked it into a primitive living conversation.

I mentioned primitive peoples in order to draw attention to their basic living skills and equipment and proof that it works.

Reminder: This scenario was for an "extented period of time"

I will say it again: 4 iodine tabs do nothing for extended survival situations.
If we are now talking about a short time frame then all items mentioned are very handy.

BTW
The jury is still out on modern man and our so called scientific improvements. As we all stock up the duct tape and plastic sheeting. Life expectancy is a relative term.


Mike

How comfortable and possible the long term is often predicated upon the ability to survive the short-term well enough to make it through to the long-term. Some supplies that make the first 3 days to week safer and easier while you build shelter and set-up long-term camp are not hard to carry and make it quite a bit easier to get a long term scenario started. A full bottle of iodine tabs easily fits in a pant's or jacket pocket without much difficulty and could keep you in water for a week. I have 10 iodine tabs in my PSK and that is 5 liters or about 3 days of drinking water. If I don't have to worry about the sanitation of my water source for the first 3 days I will be living in a much better shelter for the long term because I was spending the first three days building it rather than worrying about boiling my water. The short term consumables are just that. I carry them mostly in the hopes that there will be a reasonable chance of short term rescue. That doesn't mean that I would be unprepared to stay long term, just that I could spend the first few days focused on setting up infrastructure to make the long-term shorter or easier by either focusing on setting up camp or by focusing or signalling rescue. In either case the short-term consumables are intended to make it possible to survive without being consumed by the day-to-day of the effort right off the bat. The other trinkets (wire-saw, ziplock baggies, zip-ties, cordage, p-38, Xacto blades, etc) will be with me through the duration of the extended scenario if I treat them right. They all serve a valid purpose and cannot easily be replaced in the field without great expenditure of effort and time that could be spent on other things such as watching the sky for a plane to signal or for an elk to wander by to be speared with my Xacto tipped spear.

Ah we finally agree haha.

Short term survival is without a doubt enhanced with all you mention. An altoid tin is worth its weight in the short term.

I just don't carry one in my pants as the scenario suggests, thus I would be SOL. Now if allowed to grab my coat then more gear I carry in it would be available. If allowed to grab my fanny pack kit then even more is available. If allowed to grab my full bob then even more etc....

The true test of any survivor is their ability to thrive with just the clothes on their back. If one can do this and learn from it everything else is just convenience.

The military E&E survival courses are based on one rusty old bayonet and basic clothes. The reason for this is to get the person comfortable with improvisation and adaptation to their environment. If they suceed in this then everything else they have in a real situation just makes life easier. Things get lost broken and expire. Whats in your head is yours to keep.

No amount of gear will replace common sense, experience and plain ole luck.

Mike

OK, I was willing to stay out of this whole thing until you made that statement. Don't let those "so called" environmentalists brainwash you. That's the problem with most "activists", they almost never get their facts straight. Most are uneducated misty-eyed college kids, or overgrown frustrated hippies. And they're leaders just use lies to fan the flames of activism so that they get more and more support (contributions!). These are the same people that advocated nuclear power in the sixties, killed the nuclear power industry in the seventies, and are now whining about "global warming" (due to fossil fuels)! Now solar energy is supposed to be our way out, but they forget to tell you about all the heavy metals and arsenic used in the production of solar cells. When people start building industrial sized solar plants they'll be whining about THAT!They also forget to mention that that technology cost 10 times (80 cents per kWh) as much as what we use today. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Progress is real... period. Even the "problems" we face in modern life are nothing compared to what our ancestors had to overcome. "Global Warming", which many notable scientist even doubt really exists, is nothing in terms of a threat to mankind as say, the Bubonic Plague... or surviving the Ice Age. But since the Ice Age and the Plague are "natural" gifts from "Mother Earth", I guess they're somehow OK compared to manmade disasters. Unless you happen to have been one of the people to die from it! <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

And life expectancy relative? No bud, that's absolute! I am 38 years old and figure my life is only half over. If I had lived as a citizen of the Roman empire, as cushy as it got just a mere 2000 years ago, I would most likely already be dead.

Its fine if you wanna be a starry-eyed dreamer about a future where we all live in harmony with Gaea. But you ought to at least show a little gratitude to the people that gave you a lifestyle where you have the leisure time to sit around in your heated/air-conditioned house pondering such a state. We couldn't have even had this conversation 200 years ago, we would have been too busy laying up firewood or hunting for food.

Benman WOW,

Your off on a tangent.

I never said I was a tree huger or environmentalist haha.

Don't read too much into a persons posts.
I like the modern times and will enjoy my old age like you.

I am simply comparing the success of man for a million years before cell phones and that modern society is in its infancy still. The next chapters on humans have still to be written and if you think they have been already you are the delusional one.

The fact we all post on this website means we all have uncertainties. This prooves life expectancy is not absolute.

We all can be snuffed out at any time by whatever means manmade or nature who knows. If you think the world is getting safer, well we agree to disagree then. We are 1 drug resistant virus away from extinction in my opinion, you think about that in your heated house.

Mike

OK, so technology is a veneer over the harsh realities of life and were it stripped away we would all have to revert to living as we did for millenia. But as you say what you carry in your head is yours to keep. In a long term scenario (really long term) where the infrastructure that makes it possible to buy a replacement ceramic filter cartridge for my gravity fed filter has been renedred useless. (asteroid impact, holocaust etc. - (btw this steps out of the scope for this site sorry)) You will still be quite a bit ahead of your ancestors since you have an opportunity to understand basic hygene. Something as simple as washing hands and burying waste is responsible for increasing life expectancy by quite a lot. Before the cow-pox vaccine quaranteen was used quite-effectively on a community scale but nothing could be done for the individual to protect against small-pox other than hand-washing and face masks. Both of these ideas are very new. No need to face a total reversion. Basic individual survival skills are only the barest beginnings of what you want to take in your head into a long term survival situation. Community sanitation, water purification, waste management, smelting and smithing, basic electronics such as how to build a generator etc... would be as necessary an addition to your mental preparations as the knowledge of how to build a fire with friction. After all how many generations do you want to wait before your descendants have electric light and central heating?

As you note we have wandered quite far afield.

Mike,

I apologize for over-reacting, dude. Its just that I hear statements like "so called scientific improvements" and "life expectancy is a relative term" and my hackles go up. Its the same kind of thing I hear out of my Rastifarian, 20-something nephew who has plenty of scorn for society but rarely contributes to it in any meaningful way. Its nice that these people want to save the planet (whatever THAT means), but they need to actually get out and do something instead of criticizing everyone else.

If by saying life expectancy is relative you mean that it is an average and a great many of us will fall short of the mark, then I agree.

And its certainly true that a relatively small asteroid could wipe us out like the dinosaurs. But I think fewer of those threats exist now than in the past. Kracotoa (sp?) might have been enough to wipe us out in the right place and at the right time, but not any more. It might cause a lot of suffering for a lot of people, but it wouldn't threaten the species at large.

As far as drug resistant viruses go... that's a discussion in and of itself. I do disagree with you on that one, but I'll leave it to some of the M.D.s and paramedics we have on board to discuss that one.

Again, sorry to all for taking the conversation out into the weeds!

Ben

Hey Benman,

I have been accused of being a lot of things but never a tree hugging rastifarian haha LMAO.

Liberal I am not.

And yes thats what I meant about the life expectancy bit. Sorry for the original confusion.

A book for you to read that gave me nighmares is.

"The Demon in The Freezer" Published last year.

It may help clarify the virus situation for you.

Scarey stuff.

Mike

Mike,

Sorry it's taken me a little long to answer...had to go out of town. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No arguing from me either...I think we've got a pretty good discussion going.

After thinking about this some....I think I see where our disagreement comes from (perhaps). I believe you're thinking that I'm packing dental floss and 10 matches and depending on this to carry me through a long term survival situation. The stuff that rides with me each day of the year is for daily survival. You know....I use the dental floss to clean my teeth and have been known to use my Leatherman to carve a match into a toothpick <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The purpose of the little scenerio was to see if you see daily carry items as a benefit in a long term survival situation. Will the things you have with you, in any way, enhance your ability to survive for an extended period of time.

It seems that you're treating all gear as being totally useless and disposable after a short term use. My point of view is that gear is useful, even long after the initial use is gone. Also, anything that you have with you in a survival scenerio (long or short) can be uesful given a little thought.

Your comment: "Just explain to me how your gear after its used up is any good to you. On the 13th hr you have no light. After 4 liters of water you're boiling yours like me."

Firstly....I don't think I'm going to turn on the ol Photon and leave it running just to see how long it'll last <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. You know...use when necessary....I've got a small light that lasts for months with logical use....you've got a knife. I drink my water...so am I going to chunk my bottle and hope I don't get in trouble for littering? No...I've got a storage bottle capable of collecting and transporting some of that boiled water...you've still got a knife. After I've built a couple of dozen fires with my trusty lighter....I've still got a pretty good spark thrower....you've got a knife. After I've flossed my teeth with the dental floss....I've got a means of attaching a gaff hook to a stick to help with fishing chores...you've got your knife. I've got my ol briefcase...or do I have something that enables me to collect and carry more firewood...or more food....you've still got that trusty knife. I've got a small saw that after it helps me build a shelter it turns into a snare for providing a little food...you've got a knife. Do you see where I'm going with this? ANYTHING that you have with you is an asset if you look for alternative uses. Where you're carving and chopping to have makeshift tools and supplies....I'm concentrating on what's ahead. Yea...eventually, I'll have to have the same type of tools in a long term survival setting....but the reality is that most true life survival settings don't follow along the lines of Castaway.

As I said before (and I think we agree on this point)....you've got to have the basic knowledge behind primitive living skills as backup...but why suffer when, with just a little planning and preparation, you don't have to?

I'll never suggest that equipment will take the place of knowledge....but with the right knowledge, you can make use of some of the wonderful advancements of technology (you know...like the P38 <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Kev,

Excellent points.

I guess I was thiking your scenario resembled the Castaway scenario you mentioned. You did say" long term".

And for the record I do only carry a SAK, bic lighter and large hanky in my "pants pocket".
And for the record I will eat have fire, water, shelter and survive pretty much the same as you just a little more effort is involved because of the lack of some basic frills.
The point is to "survive" right?

I do own all the frills you speak of in another kit but see no need to carry them in my "pants" pocket. I am not advocating naked Indian living by any means haha.
But it would be nice to know you could if you had to.

Still can't figure out the P38 tho, someone explain to me how this is a survival tool. I have a can opener on my SAK on my WAVE and a rock can be used if needed. I would think you could put the weight and space to use with another item of more value. I could be wrong someone set me straight please.

Mike

On the p38: I carry a PSK with all the frills in it in my pants daily and a FAK with about the same amount of bandages etc in the other front pants pocket. I carry a leatherman and a small folder on my keychain as you point out I am overly supplied with can opening equipment. I have tool enough to be fairly well equipped with my PSK only. Should I lose my leatherman and my keychain I still have 5 blades (two safty razors, two Xacto blades and 1 P38 with the long edge sharpened), 1 saw (wire saw), 2 spear tips( the aforementioned Xacto blades) .

The p38 without modification is a great can opener, a decent butchering tool for small game (the can opening blade can zip open a rodent quite handily), a spoon for eating the stuff from the can, (if you get the colemans adaptation on the p38 it's handle is mod'd as a spoon). The steel is not the best but it can take an edge that is adequate backup roughly equivalent to a sharpened dog-tag. Don't view any tool as simply what it was designed for - look at the other possible uses for the tool. I doubt that your "fist sized rock" can opener is anywhere near as versatile as the tiny little scrap of metal lovingly called the p38 (here is where the patriotic background music downs out all thought of disagreement!) <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

i have heared guys skinning rabbits with p-38's, screwing screws, opening cans ( duh ! ), opening bottle's , to strip wire, and cut other things with the small blade.....
i only open cans and had used to screw things with it...

and did i mansion i use it as one of mine ferrocium scraper ?

this site says some nice stuff about the P38
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml

and 38 uses of the p38 and some other info in this articel:
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/images/p38newspaper.jpg

WOW the P38.

I think I will throw away my SAK and leatherman now.

I used the P38 for years in the military.
We tossed it into the garbage then because a new one came in every pack of rations.

I can see where some may find it handy.

It is a great can opener but will never replace a good SAK.

Thanks for the lesson, I still think its a waste of space and weight in a very small SK.

Mike