Let me start this post by stating that it is now my firm belief that humanity, in general, is a plague.

I haven't had a vacation that didn't involve camoflauge and rifles in so long (eight years or so) that I decided to take the week after Memorial Day off and go car camping with the dog, DW, DD1(10), and DD2(4)--mainly because I turned 40 that week and didn't want to sit around the house That being said, we looked around for 1) someplace relatively close, to avoid fuel costs, and 2) someplace none of us had been to yet.

There's fifty or so state parks, and twelve different eco-regions in Oklahoma, plenty to choose from, lots to do. The girls wanted to swim, so that narrowed it down a little (no trip to tall grass prarie, or caving, or sand, or salt flats...drat). The local lakes were out of the question as they are always crowded even during the week. We chose Turner Falls, "one of America's seven wonders", nudge nudge wink wink.

Big mistake. We had planned to stay four days, talked about leaving on day 2, left the morning of day 3. The area is beautiful, if you can overlook snow cone stands and concrete pads and porta potties. I don't think there's a square foot that hasn't been "improved". I didn't expect it to be pristine after a long holiday weekend, but I did expect it to be fairly empty...more on that in a second.

We spent the first evening pitching camp (me) and gathering firewood (DD/DW) and...picking up TRASH.

That's right, trash. In a park where every camp site has a trash can (and trash bags) that is emptied daily by staff. I'm not talking the occasional water bottle cap or plasticy bits, I'm talking lawn furniture, burned-up tentage, tools, unidentifiable BBQ remnants, fishing tackle, bricks, car parts, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

It really upset us, because some of this crud was thirty years old (remember pull-tabs from drink cans?! found hundreds). Alright, deep breath, we've cleaned up our area, lets relax...built a fire (it's still spring!), sang some songs, made dinner, relaxed, went to sleep under the stars.

The next day started out fairly well. Hot, so the girls went swimming (for some reason I don't enjoy swimming like I used to--must be getting old . Dog and I whittled about camp, made an excellent fire-poking stick, drank some beer (it was my birthday, after all), began to read a new book (wife gave me free rein at book store prior, as birthday gift)...threw frisbee at buzzards.

Here's a hint. Even Oklahoma City, where we live, has hawks and kestrels. No buzzards, although we do have seagulls near the river. Bird watching is cool even in the metro area.

Turner Falls has buzzards, hundreds of them, existing of the trash. Saw one cardinal down there, a few scissor tailed fly catchers...one hawk...lots and lots of buzzards, they flew over so often that even the dog got bored of them.

Girls came back from swimming, complained about all the trash (clothing, camping bits, etc) about every place they went to. Local swimming hole not as bad as the rest, so they spent some time there.

Until the rest of the world showed up and screwed up. Second day about 5 PM Motely Crue rolled in. I'm talking 4 pickups and SUVs worth of loud radios, bad attitudes, noisy quads, generally the worst neighbors you could hope for. Whole park's just about empty, evidently we picked their favorite place to destroy nature.

Radios blasted until 2:30 am the next morning despite our diplomatic efforts. Almost called the cops, believe it or not, decided I didn't need to be in jail for baiting rednecks. DW was so mad that at sunrise that morning she blasted some Ministry (yeah, I'm old, but not dead) at them until I took the car keys away from her....we decided to leave rather than put up with them another night, right after I took the girls swimming once more (overcast, water about forty degrees below zero...now I remember why I hate swimming in spring). Camp Creep next to us spent all morning yelling hateful things at their offspring and drinking beer.

Anyhow, had to vent. Would rather camp in my back yard then go back there, especially since we had to pay fifty bucks a day for the privelege.

You have my sympathies. I've had a few situations that were similar but never that bad with the TRASH.

I also chose to leave and have endeavored since then to always be on the lookout for lonelier places to camp.

Isn't it strange how "mankind" are the only critters on the planet that craps in their own nest???

I was in Honduras cleaning up after Hurricane Mitch and it wasn't this bad...this particular nest wasn't only crapped in and generally used as a landfill, I think it also had syphillis.

I wish I'd have kept some grenades when I retired....hindsight is 20/20.

As a semi-professional volunteer campground host, I apologize. Someone is obviously falling down on the job. Every camp we have hosted at, I have had campers comment on how clean the place was. That is because wespend hours every day, walking around with our "grippy stick" and a five gallon bucket, picking up anything manmade. Whenever a site is vacated I am right there, removing whatever has been left (and that is a lot of stuff most of the time). In this day and age, most "campers" are slobs, nothing else describes them. I am also the one folks like you come to at oh-dark-thirty, complaining about noisy neighbors, so I get to get dressed and wander down to try to quiet them down. Such fun...

Don't you wish we could travel back to a more civilized time?

Jeanette Isabelle

I'm not so sure its about decreased civility. Maybe just more people with much better transportation, cheap gas, and well maintained freeways.

OBG, the DW and I discussed volunteering that first night we were boots on ground. If I were twice-retired, instead of once, we'd be there right now it really is a beautiful piece of country, minus the human element. The problem I saw with clean-up was supervision. The "boss man" sat in a flat bed truck, listening to the radio and smoking god knows what, and dispatched (apparently) underpriveleged teens to pick up trash bags out of the bins.

The kiddos weren't that bad, they all gravitated towards my Attention Hound, Abby, who didn't take their faces off--they couldn't have been that bad. But they sure as heck were unmotivated--even heard one of them say "Just look busy".

A well-armed society breeds politeness.

Too often what I see is the Gimmees, a tribe born of "social/moral/finacial inequality" doomed to perpetual laziness.

I dread lotus-eaters.

Don't you wish we could travel back to a more civilized time?

For years I wondered if I was born in the wrong time...until I figured out it's impossible, I was born when I was born.

Yes, I'd rather be exploring the West with L & C Co., or hunting Nagas for the Mattress Brothers, or roaming Barsoom...fighting Dervishes in Morocco, but such is not my luck. I am only a man, in my own time, taking care of my girls, doing something I remotely enjoy.

However, I have weekends off

How I wish we could bring back the Victorian era.

Jeanette Isabelle

Voluteering, if you don't mind little bit of mild labor, is a hoot. We have been doing it over four years now, for several states parks and two different federal agencies, and are having a ball. Gives us a place to park for free, in exchange for a minimal amount of labor (one state we have worked for only reguired 14 hours a week, for both of us! We gave lots more than that, but 7 each was the requirement). When we are not dragging our home on wheels around we actually get semi-decent fuel mileage, and our only real expenses are food, which we would have anyway, and entertainment. And we entertain pretty cheaply. We meet lots of intersting people, get to see parts of the country we could not afford any other way, a win win situation for us...

Ya gotta keep in mind that, if some of what I have read is correct, ancient civilizations seemed to have a lot of "crap" left laying around in their living areas. Throwing bones to the dogs under the table, pieces of broken junk laying around, etc. Maybe people have always been slobs...

I am pretty sure the 'pre-penicillin, pre-germ theory, pre-antibiotics days' weren't all that fun.

I don't think the world today is significantly worse than it was 50 years ago, its just that today we have much faster communications. What was once little known outside the neighborhood is now headline news, live and in color while you are eating dinner.

We had a similar experience about 13 years ago in Colorado. We vowed to never again camp in a National Forest Campground. Now we get waaaaay back into the forest, and seldom see anyone else. I don't have patience for the slobs...

Sorry to go off topic, how do you get access to the Internet?

"... how do you get access to the Internet?..."

We have an aircard thru Verizon, our cell service...

Anymore when I go camping (even at elk camp), I bring at least a good camera, preferably a good video recorder. I get pics/video of all the campsites, and as they fill up I get pics of the occupants, their license plates, and faces if possible. If they leave a mess, I get that too. Then I send a copy of all of it to the local sheriff. After a while the campsites don't get so crapped up anymore. I imagine it would be similar to catch the nuggets doing other illegal activity as well. Imagine what CPS would do with a film of the guy yelling profanity at his kids in a public place.

Yeah, some folks won't care, but they will pay the fine(s) anyways.

As I write this, I am sitting in Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest on the rim (a high plateau) in N.E. Arizona. We are camp hosts at a primitive dispursed camping area. I won't say the place is spotless, but it is close. There are no formal campsites here. One just picks a spot in the forest and sets up. Last year we had a few problems, but not many and not very bad.

Folks that come here are usually hunters, nature lovers and those who enjoy the forest. There are no facilities of any kind. No trash service, no water, no dump, no nothing but trees, elk and grand vistas.

For many, it is an undesirable spot to camp. They have to bring in everything and pack it out. We take their name and the plate number of the vehicle used. I spend about 10 minutes telling them the proper forest etiquette. We inspect the area with them telling them that we will photograph any trash found so that they will not be fined if we discover it after they leave. Seems like they get the idea.

If they ride ATV's in a dangerous way, we call "Ranger Bob", a 30 year veteran of the Forest Service. He lays tickets on 'em like snow in December.

It is sad to see so many folks that have not a clue about camping. They expect it to be disneyland. Usually they leave here after one night and I try to be on-hand with my camera as they pack up. I wave a cheery good-by and hang around to check out the area. Almost always it is spotless. I find an occasional kids toy in a bush, or a small piece of trash that was overlooked. Seems they are so used to trash that they can't see some of the little pieces.

For the most part it is a wonderful place to be. For the campers and for us. We will be here until fall. Come on up and enjoy it with us.
We are at N34d 16.392m W110d 51.247m on FR 9512.

Sounds nice.

Myself and DW, Hondo(nickname) my son(3) and DD(11) just got back from Turner Falls in OK. I have to say...I didn't have as bad an experience.

We arrived on Friday evening waited at the front gate for 10 minutes behind some RV waiting to get in...got the park map and immediately determined that staying anywhere labeled "Main Camp" was going to be crowded. It's an interesting commentary on life after the ballon goes up...everyone seems to gravitate to stuff...bathrooms, snowcone stands, water...we actually camped on the farthest loop back in the butterfield..or was it butterfly campground. Port a john close walk was cleaned every morning between 8 -8:15.

We arrived at camp...some others camped 100 yards to either side. Had to move a few sticks, but the only trash I found was a few bottle tops and some broken glass...I took this opportunity to lecture on the value of always wearing shoes in camp...DW rolls eyes..but concurs.

Set up the tent, luckily, I brought some firewood with me..not a stitch anywhere..lots of small twigs, but nothing with any staying power. I suspected that after the holiday it would be picked clean. Ran off the very large racoon from camp several times and then listened to two of them fight over our left over hot dog buns at around 3:00 am...that was the only noise we heard.

Awoke refreshed..put on the swim trunks, had breakfast and headed out. That's one benefit of the three year old..no late sleeping. We got a great parking space for the trek to the actual falls swimming area. We toured the remains of the castle like home built by a Dr. around the 1930's..interesting, spent the rest of the day swimming in the butt cold water...but the kids were of course obvilivious to the temperature.

That night, more of the same, cooked burgers built another fire, marshmellows of course. Little louder on Saturday night more folks had moved in...but still no one closer than 75 yards. Some loud Mexican music playing...but after 10:00 that died off as well. Chased off the Racoon again.

I will say that I never went longer than 1 hour without seeing a Davis police officer driving around and I did notice that the closer you got to "Main Camp" the worse it got. Sorry for your experience, it was my first time to Camp there as well. Try Robbers Cave...it's cheaper, they have a really neat hiking trail, primitive camping. That's where we usually go.

Simply brilliant! From now on, DVcorder goes too (this was a no-electronics, girls! trip, which meant camera gear, for me).

Like I said, we stayed the week after Memorial Day weekend...Davis cops drove through about once every six hours. I'm fairly certain that the place was trashed because of the holiday, but, the workers overlooked everything but the bins the whole time we were there.

The place is probably more crowded and "civilized" on the weekends...we were in Butterfly, too.