I imagine there is already a thread on this; based on historic disasters, how long can we expect a business, such as a store or a restaurant of any type, to remain closed?

I wish I had paid more attention to such details when disasters such as when Hurricane Katrina hit. I do remember some eager entrepreneurs were able to reopen business even when the infrastructure was not back to sustaining capacity.

Jeanette Isabelle

Per my fading memories irt hurricanes:

For a moderate event: A week for the undamaged stores to open. That accounts for the return of employees and restocking of shelves, plus the restoration of electrical, water, sewage, & communications.

1) Strictly depends on the severity of the disaster vs. gov't response in restoring basic services + law enforcement.

2) Poor response means people are slower to return, cleanup is delayed. Some businesses may never reopen.

3) No American city has more than 3 days supplies in it. Supplies are usually bought up within 3 hours of the public realizing that a forecastable event is approaching. A forecastable event may be a hurricane, ice storm, blizzard, flooding, etc. An unannounced event may be a HazMat incident (rail, waterborne, highway), tornadoes, earthquake, terrorist attack, etc.

4) Beware the Stobor!

I don't remember where I read this, but the SBA keeps track of small businesses. Their statistics show that 43% of small businesses closed by a disaster never re-open. That another 29% close within two years. I think that's 72%. I read this years before the 2005 hurricane debacle, and now the SBA's press releases all talk about how much better it will do next time. :-\ Cynics would say that the stats after Katrina and Wilma are so much worse that the SBA won't publish them. Others would say I just can't find them at http://www.sba.gov/

My suggestion instead of a generalized statistic on how long 'businesses of any time remain closed' is to look specifically at your situation. If you are in New Orleans, and you have a major hurricane, I'd say you should expect many, maybe most, businesses to fail to reopen. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and if we have "The Big One," I expect many businesses never to reopen. If it's a moderate earthquake, I expect some businesses to reopen as soon as we get power back, but I plan on a week without being able to buy anything anywhere.

If we have a major earthquake here, I expect people to move away, the town where I live not to be rebuilt in any reasonable time - another Katrina in New Orleans. I can't guess about your disaster scenario. If you live in a tornado belt, I'd guess it depends on the size of the town. Some are completely wiped out by major tornadoes - check your local news sources for what happened after such a disaster.

IMO it depends of what sort of disaster your talking about, the particular type of disruptions involved and how much damage is inflicted.

Generally I have observed that national retailers tend to close as soon as they lose power external power. Plus or minus how long any backup power is designed to last. Some or these stores keep selling as long as the backup generator keeps running and the cash registers keep working. Other close as soon as the main POCO, power company, electrical feed fails. At least one grocery store manager said they close the store to sales even if the emergency generator is running so they can make the reserve fuel last as long as possible. Shutting off interior lights, ventilation and other non-essential loads and reserving the generator for powering the refrigeration so the food doesn't spoil.

Smaller mom-and-pop retailers are much more likely to be free of advanced stock controls, computer scanners and integrated registers. Most can operate quite well with cash only sales. Usually if the power is out credit card sales are impossible so cash is king. It has been my experience that they also are far more motivated by connections to the community and dedication to their family store to stay open as long as possible to protect it and cater to their customers.

During the LA riots family owned stores were often manned, protected and were the last to close and first to reopen. Big-box stores were largely abandoned and how and when they reopened was a corporate decision.

Of course all retailers will have problems maintaining staff. In an emergency the employees want to go home and tend to their families. Major retailers need a good number of people to operate. A small store might get by with a one or two people. Sears or WalMart might need a dozen or more. Even if they get power back they aren't likely to open until they get the manpower to run the store.

Of course if there is massive damage from winds or flooding the stores can't be expected to stay open or to reopen until they can be repaired, cleaned and restocked. In a case like NOLA the store contents of national retail stores are listed by insurance as a total loss. In this context looting might be taken as independent salvage. There is no way any major grocery store or retailed is going to go to the trouble of sorting and sifting through a flooded or severely damaged store. The typical recovery plan is that the entirety of the store contents, including the shelving, are loaded onto dump trucks and hauled off to the landfill.

You have to realize that the replacement cost of retail goods is usually 10 to 50% of the retail cost. It doesn't pay to do much detailed salvage and reconditioning in the hopes of selling the items. Labor costs and insurance liability make it impossible to make a profit. So when you see 'looters' coming out of a flooded shop you might consider it just one less thing the owner will have to load onto a truck and haul to the dump.

For a flooded store, without structural damage, reopening would be a week at an absolute minimum and a couple of months likely. It can be expected that some badly damaged stores may not ever reopen.

So the answer to ther original question when will stores reopen is they will reopen, at the soonest, when they get power and have the manpower to run the operation. This assumes there is no major damage and, for food, the power wasn't off long enough for a significant portion of the food to go bad.

Clothing and dry-goods stores usually don't have back-up generators. Food stores usually do. But typically these systems are only designed and fueled to operate for 72 hours or less. One store manager claimed his was set up for 48 hours but could go for a week or more if they could get fuel to keep the generators going. After the generator fails he has 6 to 12 hours before the refrigerated food goes bad. Once it does the store is limited to boxes and cans and may not be deemed worth opening until the entire stock can be removed and replaced. Hard to see that happening in less than a week.

Expect reopening to take longer if, as in a hurricane, a wide swath of territory is disrupted with roads out, people displaced and recovery crews and materials in short supply. It has been three years since Katrina and a lot of the smaller towns have lost all or most of their retail stores. Entire neighborhoods in NOLA are still short of any retail space beyond small convenience stores. Of course some poorer sections had little more than convenience stores to start with. The more affluent areas started with more and saw them recover faster.

This isn't a simple answer but perhaps you can take some of this into account when considering your situation. You might also go around to your local retail stores and simply ask the manager. Some stores have disaster plans while others don't. The local store that stayed open was a tiny little convenience store where the manager lived in the back. When the hurricane came he had no place else to go so he hunkered down and stayed open the entire time. You might want to scout out all the local mom-and-pop stores.

Hey Izzy, want to move to Houston?

-Blast

Another way of looking at it is how long are you prepared for them not to be open. I live in central Washington, so not many disasters, however the County plan urges all residents to be self sufficient for 3 days. Talking to Old Timers the said back in the early 90s the highways were closed due to a severe snow storm and things got very thin after 6 days.
i was in S.C after Hurricane Hugo and one of the great things was the block parties after a couple of days, when everyone cooked what was thawed from their freezers.

I ask, to not only know how to prepare, but how long to prepare for a likely event. Other than a major power disruption, meaning this will take a while, the most likely disaster is a tornado. There are other probable, though less likely, scenarios.

Jeanette Isabelle

Plan for as much room as you feel comfortable with taking up in your living space. This question I assume implies a shelter-in-place (bugging in) scenario. Remember, water is the essence of life. One cubic foot of storage space per person for each two days is a starting point for planning for water. One cubic foot of water is about 7 gallons IIRC. You may want to go higher. Play around with various foods to see how much storage space a day/week/month's worth takes up. I am in the middle of preparing for a move from OK to Upstate NY so I can't offer any guessitmates.

Last thing: don't forget to plan for the pet's needs if it applies.

My 2 cents.

If the disaster is a tornado, which is likely, then I really can't prepare for it unless I have enough baskets to distribute my eggs. If it is a tornado, then there wouldn't be a store nearby to reopen.

Jeanette Isabelle

Depends on the tornado. A tornado may take out the store and leave your closet full of goodies . . . or visa versa, it may take out your house and leave the store.

Your stash of goodies is one basket, the store is another. You should at least have a basket.

Perhaps it would help if I list what I assume could happen in the order of likelihood:

Major power disruption (happened last year)
Tornado
Man-made disaster
Earthquake (yes, there are fault lines in Texas)
Hurricane . . . right, not going to happen. When Hurricane Rita hit, all we got was a breeze.

Jeanette Isabelle

Best Case 3-5 days, worst case 12-15 days. After that either the business will never reopen until it is reconstructed and or the population (and it workers) will have been relocated and /or in Camps. I still plan for 30 days plus just to be on the safe side. Strangely the Canadian Government say 3 days is enough, but I think they are being a little hopeful and or assume that having everybody with three days of food is better than none.

Perhaps it would help if I list of what I assume could happen in the order of likelihood:


One calls this planning--don't overlook drought, or trucker-strike, given your location.

Even oh-so-cheery, "no one's evil" DW finally gave permission for a three month store of food and water (she really doesn't need to know it's more than that), and firearms/ammo.

A former hippy from Mendocino County, People's Republic of Kalifornia gave me permission to buy extra food and weapons. Really.

But dude, CHEERRLEADERS!!

-Blast

I think that would also be backed up by the studies on Katrina, like the one reported on here: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourHome/RealKatrinaHeroWalMartStudySays.aspx

And Izzy, as far as leading, you'd taken a step before all others, so you were already in the lead.

As far as the original question, I think it depends on the situation, but I think 3 days is about right for most. When you get into situations that invovle more damage and devastation, I think it could be longer.

I vote plan for a week. Clearly for every disaster, the swath of destruciton is critical for asessing the impact. A tornado can take out a city block or a whole town...and everything in between. Out here in California earthquakes can knock down a few or many building ....destroy small bridges ..no bridges or many major arterial freeway connections.
My personal goal is to be prepared for a week ... and then extend and build on that. Sheltering in place I can do that now. But I';m not quite organized enough to get all that stuff into a car in short order (less than an hour) and move it to some undisclosed location when the powers that be tell me to evacuate for a brush fire. Thankfully ...I'm urban enough for that to be less of a threat than other scenarios. But still, one day I want to be able to do pitch all my supplies in my truck and hoof it for greener pastures.
By the way ... its 7.48 gallons per cubic foot...and water weighs about 8 lbs per gallon. Unfortunately, with containers that are durable enough to be handled a lot you'll need more space than one cubic foot for 7.48 gallons. I like 2.5 gal containers 'cuz they are eaier to handle than 5 gal containers...but good ones are pricey....and moving a large amount of water when bugging out is heavy ....bringing adequate water in a bug-out scenario is one of my concerns yet to be fully resolved.

[/quote] Wal-Mart did all of that for the Katrina victims. And here are these "groups" of people who're calling Wal-Mart evil. Sorry, but if every Wal-Mart closed right now the unemployment rate would skyrocket and so would inflation. Shoot...Wal-Mart's an American Success Story.

Big Box Marts are also glorified barracks and quartermaster stations. You can bet they're made so that if a storm hits they can still operate and make income, so they're safe. The Wal-Marts and Targets here in Florida are ALL solar and during the daytime use skylights. Power! You have tons of goods stationed in one area with cooking facilities and storage facilities and tons of space. It's the perfect place to house people after a huge disaster. They've got plenty of bathrooms, too! And if I were a manager of one I would go down to the hardware aisle and get all the PVC pipe I could and make showers that ran off garden hose spigots on the outside of the store and use privacy tents from the camping aisle to enclose them. Sure it'd be cold, but the people would need it.

I'll quote that article...

"A lot of you are going to have to make decisions above your level. Make the best decision that you can with the information that's available to you at the time, and, above all, do the right thing." Wal-Mart CEO.[/quote]

A few points to place things in context:
Wal-Mart is a huge company with profits that exceed the budgets of many small nations. The total amount spent by WalMart in response to Katrina represents what they would spend in just a few prime time commercials. And was all tax deductible. If the quality of charity is based on 'giving until it hurts' Wal-Mart gave the suffering the crumbs from their table and the sweepings from the floor.

And then filmed and advertised the distribution of these crumbs. The direct aid was well coordinated with Wal-Mart ad agencies, filmed and used in commercials that followed. they spent more making and distributing these commercials than they spent on the aid. It was also well documented and packaged to be used as leverage against communities who have resisted Wal-Marts being inflicted on them. Typically local business bankruptcies double when a Wal-Mart opens and unemployment spikes.

Second, once the flood waters enter a store, particularly ones as well insured as Wal-marts, the contents are declared a total loss. As noble as it sounds that Wal-Mart was handing out supplies it didn't represent a significant financial loss. The managers and employees who took the time and made the effort get credit. But as a corporation Wal-Mart was giving up very little.

Also actions like driving bulldozers and forklifts to open doors sounds heroic but it points to simple lack of emergency planning and a lack of coordination. Planning and coordination would have had keys available. But maybe they were available. Driving a bulldozer into a storefront is much more likely to make the news. Cheap advertising for an image conscious company.

A point by point critique:
"Big Box Marts are also glorified barracks and quartermaster stations. You can bet they're made so that if a storm hits they can still operate and make income, so they're safe."

Actually no. Most Wal-Marts don't have backup generators. Those that do, generally the Supercenters with groceries and freezer sections, only have a couple of days supply of fuel and generation capacity for their refrigeration sections. Generally those generators are only marginally maintained. This is pretty common with backup generators in general. Even such places as hospitals. When the POCO power drops a lot of places with generators find out they don't work, don't work for very long, or they can't carry the required loads.

Wal-Marts are built to the same construction standards as all the other big-box stores. Nothing special. Also Wal-Marts may be more vulnerable because of the integrated inventory controls. Their cash registers require inputs from a connection to the central office. All purchases in any Wal-Mart in the US goes through this central office. In theory the manager can operate on a cash-only basis but employees are not trained in that method and the management usually balks. Until the store has power, telephone service and/or satellite connection the managers tend to want to stay closed simply because it makes accounting and inventory much easier.

"The Wal-Marts and Targets here in Florida are ALL solar and during the daytime use skylights. Power!"

Sorry but your wrong. There may be newer stores with these features but of the three stores in this area of Florida none have solar power or skylights.


"You have tons of goods stationed in one area with cooking facilities and storage facilities and tons of space. It's the perfect place to house people after a huge disaster. They've got plenty of bathrooms, too!"

Sorry to bust your bubble but that isn't going to work. The restaurants are typically all-electric. Much more power required than any rooftop solar setup will provide. Assuming they have solar panels, and they still operate after a storm, you might be able to run a couple of hot plates but cooking for 400 is pretty much out of the question.

A;so I don't know how much bathroom space your Wal-Marts have but the ones around here have very limited capacity. Typically one or two stalls, a urinal or two and a couple of sinks on the mens side and two or three stalls and a couple of sinks on the womens side. But even this capacity is going to be gone quickly. None of the Wal-Marts I have seen have any capacity for pumping their own water. They are either entirely dependent on city water or, for a few rural stores, the well runs off POCO power. Either way the water supply won't last long. And as soon as the lift stations are full those WCs are going to back up.

The Wal-Marts around here, and all the other big-box stores, were shut tight the last couple of times hurricanes got anywhere near close. They closed 12 to 24 hours ahead of the storm and remained closed for about 24 hours after. Even if they had power.

Of course it wasn't hard for Wal-Mart to look good in comparison to FEMA during Katrina. FEMA under Clinton functioned. I was there. W got into office claiming government could do no good and has spent the last seven years proving his point by making sure it didn't do any good.

What to expect after a disaster? I was a Red Cross Volunteer doing large scale disaster work. Spent a month in New Orleans during/after Katrina and another month in Miami after Hurricane Wilma. Also worked many blizzards, floods and other assorted incidents.

The most serious things I encountered were not the loss of water, fuel, communications or shelter. The hardest to deal with were less tangible.

Expect to be tired. Very very tired. This leads to irritability, errors in judgment, lowered resistance to disease and accidents. And it is not just you that will be tired, but everybody will be tired. Bone dead tired. Imagine being in a town where everyone is stressed. Small incidents bloom into confrontations. People make stupid mistakes which irritate others. Everyone becomes edgy.

Confusion will be extreme. It will be almost impossible to find out what is really happening. Rumors will circulate so many times you will begin to believe the most ridiculous stories. You will spend energy going someplace to get something that is not available. Not once or twice but many times. Making important decisions will be very difficult. You (and others) will become disoriented. Nothing will be as it was. After Katrina there were no street signs. Something as simple as giving someone travel directions was a real challenge. Your everyday reality will be distorted and frightening.

It will be dangerous. Live electrical wires, polluted drinking water, flooded roads, downed trees, broken glass, blocked roads. All this will make any “normal” task difficult and dangerous. It took us several days to move a communications vehicle a short distance (blocks) because of the tangle of downed power lines, trees and debris.

Nothing will be routine. You will have to view each and every action in a new perspective. You will not be able to assume that a simple trip down the block to help a neighbor will be safe and easy.

You will not have any news. Most communications will be gone for a few days and that is when you need information the most. Soon some radio stations will be on the air,, but they will be overwhelmed with technical problems and staff shortages.

Your personal contacts will be limited. The worry about others that are not easily contacted will be very difficult and painful. Where is my daughter, is she alive? How are my friends doing?

Food will be bad. Not dangerous, but not what you are used to either. Limited cooking facilities, lack of refrigeration and repetitive meals will replace your normal fare.

Your living conditions will be uncomfortable. No showers and perhaps very limited water to do even minimal bathing. Privacy may be non-existent. Others may be sharing your living space. Noise, body smells, sleeping on the floor, not having personal space all contribute to tension and discomfort.

You will be doing hard physical work. Much more that you are used to. Long hours, infrequent rests, poor food will make work difficult.

Some supplies will be missing. Perhaps not the big stuff like water, but other less planned for items like toilet paper, proper clothing, parts for equipment that gets broken. Small inconveniences that add up to more stress.

Getting along with others will be difficult. The normal roles we are used to will change. Some will become “boss” when you know a better way. It will take a long time to make group decisions. Everyone will want things just a bit different, and have very good reasons why their needs are just. The normal workplace type “human problems” will be much more difficult to resolve.

Lines of authority will be confused. Who is really in charge? What are the rules? Who decides who gets what? What should be done first? How should group resources be allocated and who decides?

Poor communication skill will obscure intent. When people try to describe situations outside their normal world, the ability to communicate clearly becomes difficult. This is especially true of people thrust into leadership positions that are not used to creating clear, concise and unambiguous instructions.

Social control becomes difficult. Some will need things desperately enough to steal. Others will see the weak as prey. Stress will cause some to act irrationally and violently.

Life becomes very scary. When the normal routine of life is gone, when people are stressed, when the correct path is obscured, when family or friends are killed or missing, when normal social roles are distorted, then life becomes very scary indeed.

What you expect will probably not be what you encounter. But the situation becomes a bit easier when you know that the “normal” will not be normal and that stress will become a very large part of your life.

Nomad,

That was probably the best, most useful post ever made to ETS.

Thank you very, very much.

-Blast

I was around New Orleans after Katrina for a month and the biggest obstacle for us was finding a safe place to stay. All the parks were full, no houses available to rent and all the apartments were full or damaged. There was not even a place to pitch a tent. We ended up staying in our cars in a church parking lot which worked out ok because they had bathrooms and coffee in the morning, but it wasn't nearly as comfortable as it could have been if we could have just camped out. Everything was total chaos, even the wal-mart parking lot was full all the time. Everyone looked like zombies and we were all on edge. It was very disorienting. It's one thing to say I'll just camp out but it's another thing when there is no place to put a tent. People were guarding their land and there wasn't a trusting person to be found and you can't set up a tent just anywhere. Alligators and snakes were turning up in places they don't normally frequent. It was an eye opening experience for sure. We were lucky, at least we had cars to sleep in and a safe place to park at night. There was one convienience store opened that made sandwiches and the line went around the building 3 times. It was like a 2 hour wait in line just to get some food. At one point, when the store told everyone they were going to be out of sandwiches, a man went back to his car and got out a shotgun. The police caught him before he could get it loaded though. Desperate people resort to desperate measures so you have to be on guard at all times and thats not as easy as it sounds.

They would be more expensive; where there any hotels available?

Jeanette Isabelle

In the area I was in there was no hotels or motels with vacancies. It wasn't a question of money at all, it was that there was nothing in the area. All the rooms that could be rented were already rented.

Well said! I have never been in a disaster that large, but after working thru a 6.4 earthquake that pretty much destroyed a small town, I have an admittedly small idea of what a biggie would be like. Those who worked thru things like Katrina are close to meeting my definition of heros...

Hotel/motel rooms go FAST. If the displaced don't rent them, the government does, for its folks...

Yikes... +1 to Blast. Thank you Nomad. Talk about pulling no punches.

Looks like it's time to stock up another case of MRE's, pallet of water, a roll of TP, bottle of vitamins and maybe a box or two of 00 buck... just in case.

In a situation like Katrina. Everyone is on edge and a suspect. There was a curfew so it wasn't a good thing to be driving around at night. I was very lucky I was able to stay at the church parking lot. It was uncomfortable, hot and the mosquitoes were terrible, but I don't think I've ever appreciated a parking space more. The church was feeding hundreds of people during the day. After about the second week their stove broke down so I gave them the money I would have used for a motel room so they could get it fixed. There was alot of hard working people there from all over. It was an experience i'll never forget.

In this discussion of a post-disaster situation and what were the relative merits of various resources and how people helped, or failed to help, it may be useful to remember that politics and the attitudes and assumptions of those in power had a huge influence on the experience of the people caught in the middle of the mess.

It didn't make the news but literal millions of dollars in aid and materials were held back by the powers that be. The ruler of Myanmar isn't the only dictator who has refused assistance to maintain control and avoid any suggestion of being weak:

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/003504.html

It is to Wal-Mart's credit that they were willing to help and testament to their clout that they were allowed to get through.

Not once when I was in New Orleans did I think about what the politicians were doing to help, I was too busy keeping myself safe. I don't depend on the government for anything, especially in a disaster. If you wait around for someone else to take care of you then you have to accept whatever they choose to do for you. I take care of me first then i'll help who I can.

I remember after Hurricane Charley in 05 that a lot of places were closed initially...I also remember a lot of places trying to open as quickly as possible....remember their business is HOW THEY LIVE.... I found that it really depended on where the business was and how hard it was hit.....People in areas not as hard hit opened sooner....areas with major destruction were closed for awhile.....some for over a month.....

The often mentioned SARAJEVO SURVIVAL GUIDE gives a good view of the life and difficulties presented to those in a war zone. Not a natural disaster, but much of the result is similar. Well worth the time to read.

http://www.friends-partners.org/bosnia/surintro.html

Good observation. In the wake of Hurricane 'Iwa in '82 (only a Cat 1, but it ravaged the islands) this was definitely the case. Our area was really whacked with the storm surge and flooding, but a few miles down the coast, hardware stores and restaurants opened a day after the event despite having no power. They were selling off-menu stuff like cold cut sandwiches. I remember a chain burger joint whose owners had brought their personal grills.

Looking back I'll say it was probably just as good psychologically as economically for the business owners. There's something to be said for inserting a bit of normalcy into a disaster.

This is what I have been looking for, resourceful entrepreneurs who keep business going even when the current state of the infrastructure does not support normal business operations.

Make sure you have plenty of cash before disaster strikes.

Jeanette Isabelle

Am I the only one who finds Art_in_FL's post to be offensive and inappropriate in general, especially to the topic at hand, and a blatant violation of forum rules?

Specifically, the rule: "There are myriad places online to debate politically and emotionally charged subject matter. ETS is not the place."

Also: "If the discussion in a thread veers away from that of the original topic, please start a new thread under an appropriate subject title."

I'd say that a long rant about the evils of Wal-Mart, and calling President Bush a "dictator" and comparing him to the Myanmar junta violate both of those rules. Not to mention being tedious and puerile.

David

I agree with much of what was written so far.

I would add it depends on the adaptability of the individuals involved with the individual businesses.

After hurricane Andrew when our grocery store was out of power, they were still conducting business in the dark because the workers could critically think and conduct business with flashlights and calculators.

It's kinda funny and reassuring to see people walking through the grocery store with flashlights, young people helping the older ones who couldn't see as well...

The folks I saw working had a certain air of pride still being able to function like like that.

I wouldn't expect it now- that was what, 92?

The kids working in grocery stores can make proper change WITH a computer telling them how many pennies, how many nickels, how many dimes. I spent 20 minutes in the grocery check out today, not because I was silly and went shopping on a Sunday, but because the young person behind the register was out of fives and the manager was unavailble, but she a mess of ones in their drawer. *shakes head angrily*

2 nights ago (fri night) we had a storm go through that knocked out the power to the local Kroger store. After the power was back on (out for just under 2-hrs) I walked down to Kroger, all the lights were on but the store was closed. I was in there today and asked why they did not open when the power came back on, I was told that the computers needed to be reset and no one could do it till they called in a tech guy (or gal) to do it.


Sad that something so simple as a power outage for a few hours can completely stop the store from doing the one thing it’s suppose to do, sell things.

In the little town of Atwater, CA, former home of Castle AFB, there is a hardware store (Ace I think, but not sure), that to this day (I was in there two days ago, and I doubt that they have changed in that time), they have little stickers with prices on EVERYTHING, a couple of old fashioned, time worn, receipt gizmos, and a cash register that they can work by hand. Power out, no problem, they can fill and light several of the many oil lamps/lanterns that they sell, along with fuel and matches, hand write the reciepts as they do every day, and keep in business. Sadly, the same can not be said for any other business in the town, or probably the county. Or maybe the state...

Time and jobs have changed. This started with Henry Ford and went on through McDonald's and now every job an business has been modified. Before Ford cars were produced a piece at a time, often one at a time, by a team. Over time each member of the team would learn skills and master jobs and would get pay raises. You start on day one putting on the wheels but the job trains you. In a few years you could assemble the entire automobile by yourself.

Ford changed that. Now the guy who puts on the wheels just does wheels. He could have an entire career just putting on wheels. He is a wheel specialist. there is no additional training nor career path for a wheel guy. Once you master the job that is all that job will ever be.

The first McDonald's were pretty much like all the other mom-and-pop burger stands. Everyone learned all the jobs. As you learned jobs you became more valuable and could demand more money. After a few years you were pretty much capable of setting up your own burger stand.

That changed to an assembly line. Narrow jobs. But also the machinery changed. The machinery takes all the skills out of each job. The grill tells you when to add patties and when too turn them and when they are done.

A long time ago many retail cashiers had to be nine-key trained. They would know or look up each price and insert each manually. A god grocery cashier had a salable skill and could beat the laser scanners of today. The trained cashier also made a dollar an hour over what other employees made. The cash register didn't tell you how to make change that was another part of the job you had to learn. A skill you could develop on the job and a skill you would leave with.

Now, with laser scanners, you can pull any slob off the street, stuff them into a smock and they can function, for the most part, as an effective cashier. They don't get paid anything extra, because they haven't had to learn anything, and when they leave they haven't picked up any salable skills.

The jobs don't teach. The employees don't learn. The boss sees employees as interchangeable parts and the employees see the job as something they do for eight hours. A situation where they do as little as possible while realizing they are getting paid as little as possible. Neither side has any loyalty, or much respect, for the other.

Sadly, you have just described the good old US of A today...

Some companies are learning, I am pleased to report. I live in south Florida and am not happy to report that the eyes of three hurricanes came over my house in 2004-05. The grocery store where we shop (Publix) was down during the power outages caused by the storms.

Last year I saw some interesting construction activity going on behind the store. I was elated when I saw a big CAT diesel generator with a several hundred gallon tank installed on the pallet they had constructed. I also received a report last month indicating that a number of gas stations in my area had installed emergency generators.

A little progress in a sea of confusion. I'll take what I can get.

Craig.

Definitely sad when we rely so heavily on computers... Mind you, I'm an computer consultant myself, but still, some people/businesses just can't function without one.

Is this a testament to specialization, unions or minimum wage workers using a computer that can't boot itself? In any case it's pretty sad.

In my experience, many cashiers can not make change without the register telling them the amount to give back.
The other day I had $10.37 in groceries at a convenience store and gave the clerk a $20 and a $1, wanting a $10 bill and change back. She could not figure it out.

If you had included two pennies, that would have really thrown her a curve...

I've done that. $9.97 and I hand over a $10 and 2 pennies. "What are teh two pennies for?" :rolleyes: Hint: it's a nickel change. She hands me my two pennies back and then gives me three more.

If you really want to throw them a curve, ask them if they have any half dollars. Here,literally, 3 out of 4 don't even know what you are talking about.

It is unbelievable how those in my generation cannot do simple math.

Jeanette Isabelle

The really sad part is that most of this generation is really smart, they have just been dumbed down by society. They are not expected to know how to do anything but recognize a picture of a hamburger on the register. Most kids of today have never even written a letter. Not an email but a real letter.

I've had that experience with clerks before... Giving them pennies, after they punch in the money I gave them and have no clue what to do with them... It is simple math people!

Nomad, I've shared your insights with everyone I know (giving you credit of course!). Truly a great post.

Just as an aside, I went to Mississippi post-Katrina with a ham radio team at the behest of the Salvation Army. This was about a week and a half afterwards. A few miles from the coast, gas stations were open and doing business, though they could not take credit cards. There was massive destruction of the telephone infrastructure, but by that time it was possible to make occasional cell phone calls. Very little was undamaged closer to the beach.

The Salvation Army canteen was located in a damaged strip mall. the grocery store had a hole in the roof. The owner was stripping out food gone bad, and initiated roof repairs while we were there. A pizza place in the strip mall reopened, with no credit card service and bottled water, soda in cans. While we could eat at the canteen, we were encouraged to eat at local businesses to help restart the local economy.

Incidentally, we were told that it took the state guard 3 days to clear the trees of the highways the southernmost 100 miles or so.

In the more rural areas, such as Perlington, MS, everything was still out.

Huge numbers of powerlines were down, and we drove over a lot of them. There were power crews on about every other street, and local power plants had big circus tents with hundreds of power crew trucks parked outside.

Hey John,
You work with Jeff Schneller, N2HPO? He was basiclly "in charge" of Satern comms, and he has said over and over "Those guys from Texas saved my 'butt', coming in and doing the Winlink stuff"

Queens ARES works real close with NYC SATERN, and therefore Jeff (He is listed on the ARES roster as 'SATERN' - just to keep him on our mailing list) - Heck of a nice guy!

Most of our WL2K stuff here around NYC is based upon the fact we have an EXTREMELY robust Flexnet packet network (for instance, I think we have 4 user nodes in Brooklyn/Queens, with 3 'local' internet gateways on 3 different trunks out of the area (one of the guys who set that up is in the business), plus 3 different RF flexnet paths out of the metro, to both the south (NJ around Sandy Hook) and North (both via Manhattan/NJ and Via CT)

There are plans to put in an HF node or 2 - in fact, one is SUPPOSED to go in Jeff's House (something about space, he's on a hilltop, he wants to do it, AND has a whole house generator)