Hello All,
I’ve really enjoyed the recent firearms threads. As with all things preparedness, there’s a lot to think about. Instead of considering different rifles, I’d like you opinion on different calibers for “survival” use, hunting and defense. What handgun caliber and what long gun caliber (or calibers, including shotguns), and why?

I’ll start.
This is only from research. I have yet to buy a firearm and am currently shooting a breach action .17 that was a gift.

It’s seems the .22LR is the overall hands down choice. It’s cheap, widely available and ideal for small game hunting.

I’m not sure about a larger, longer range, bigger game caliber. 25-06, 30-06, 30-30, .223 308. This is what I’m most confused about. I’m going out this weekend to try as many calibers as I can. Hopefully I’ll find a preference.

The same for handguns. 9mm seems standard, but I don't know enough yet.

12 gage seems to be the way to go for the shotgun. Though 20 gage and 410 have their places.

Thoughts?

I'm no gun nut but I've been looking into this too.

.22LR is cheapest and easiest to carry in quantities and is going to be my first choice.

For bigger game, I'm convinced that the best choice should be based on availability. The 3 most common sizes available in north america as far as I've been able to determine is 12 ga., .308, 30-06...not necessarily in that order. One of the local gun shops has a pallet of .308 boxes right in the middle of the floor ready to sell 250 rounds at a time and I'm sure there's many more in the back.

When the time comes to buy a large calibre rifle, I'll likely go with the shotgun...it's just too damned versatile especially if you get one with a second rifled barrel. I like to think my opinion is somewhat unbiased since I've never owned a gun before.

Thanks Hacksaw. Will you go with a 12 gage? What type?

It really comes down to what you see as your most likely target in a survival situation. Small game, varmints, deer, other armed opposition. . . My choices are some of each. .22LR, 5.56 NATO and .308 Win.

I remember reading an article years ago about .30-06 being able to take everything from rabbit to elk with the right loads. While I wouldn't go that far, I still think .30-06 is tough to beat.

My 5 favorites are:
12 Gauge shotgun in a 3" chamber
.22LR
.223 Remington
.30-06 Springfield
.375 H&H (not really common in the lower US states, but very common for big game)

However, I also like .17HMR, .22-250, .243, .270, .30-30, .308, .300 Win mag, .338 Win Mag, .45-70, and a bunch of others.

With those first five you can take on game anywhere and they're all relatively common. However, they're also not perfect. For example, .223 isn't quite as flat shooting as .22-250. .30-06 is the same way when compared to .300 Win mag, however it's slightly better than .308 (but, .308 is slightly smaller, making it easier to carry more, and can often be slightly cheaper).

I try to stick with calibers that are common and multi-purpose. There are a lot of wildcat rounds that are awesome for their specialized purpose, but difficult to find and expensive.

There is always a compromise, and therefore one has to decide what their requirements are and what best fills them. There is no magic bullet that can do everything perfectly.

I'm not sure what you're preparing for, but for emergencies where you may have to defend yourself/family against other humans, I'd look at the following:

Handguns: 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp for service size pistol; 9mm or 38 Spl (the latter in older Smith J-frame for BUG use (BUG=BackUp Gun) I'd stay away from 357 Sig since it gives identical wound ballistics as 9mm, but with more wear and tear on the host piece and the shooter and is harder to come by.

Rifles: 223/5.56, 6.8 SPC, 30 Carbine, 308. This would be in bolt or semi-auto rifles. The 6.8 is clearly superior to the 223/5.56 in virtually any test you wish to conduct, and fires from the same platforms. Not as popular, but if you stock up on ammo it's not a problem.

Shotguns: 12 gauge. It's universal and tactical buckshot loads give better "performance" against living tissue than magnum loads, even though it was originally designed for small statured cops to use. The reduced velocity prevents pellet deformation and therefore gives both better patterns and increased penetration. Standard Foster-type slugs are good, and there are low recoil loads available. Where more power is needed (big animals or barriers, look at the Brenneke loads.

As for platforms/ammo to use these in:

Rifles: Quality AR-15's such as the Colt 6920, Noveske, LMT, etc. Stay away from 1/9" twist 223/5.56 if possible as 1/7" twist is better with heavier, more effective 75 and 77 gr. loads. The best loads in this caliber are the Hornady 5.56 and 223 77 Gr. TAP loads (the 5.56 load is higher pressure, higher velocity and gives you an edge at 300 meter) and the Black Hills Nosler 60 gr. You can also get barrier rounds from Federal and Hornady if you look around. These come in 55 and 62 grain loads. Either is fine. The new S&W M&P 15's are proving to be fine rifles, but they have only 1/9" twist. If you use them, you may want to stock up on the Blacks Hills 60 gr. Nosler load. The new Magpul Masada may prove excellent, but since Bushmaster will produce it, the jury is still out. Civilian versions of the FN-SCAR are supposed to be on the market later this year. Don't hold your breath.

6.8: There are MANY fine loads in this caliber. More info can be privided if you need it, but you can get good barrier loads here that are also good for hunting, self defence, etc. This is a fine caliber in AR-type rifles.

30 Carbine - This is a poor choice with FMJ, but loaded with Remington's 110gr. Soft Point it gives performance equal to or superior to even the best 223/5.56 loads out to 100 yards. In a self defence scenario, this is fine. It's great for small statured folks, is light in weight and with the extremely reliable 15 round magazines it doesn't have that "assualt rifle" look that scares the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.. Fine rifles can be obtained from both Fulton Armory and MILTECH. Make sure you get one with the later edition sights, round bolt and 30 round mag release. Auto Ordnance is producing these rifles again, but the jury is still out as to the overall quality. By the way, the Remington 110 gr. SP load works better against auto bodies and windshields than almost any 5.56 load, while still offering acceptable penetration/expansion AFTER penetrating the intermediate material. Israeli reserve security forces still use the M1 Carbine for oviously good reasons.

308 - This will take any big game animal in the continental U.S. if you do your part. I wouldn't pick it as my first or even 5th choice for grizzlies, but if it's all I had, I can load it out to get the job done. The most effective ammunition for self defense is the 155 gr. Hornady A-Max match bullet loaded by both Hornady and Black Hills. Out to 600 yards it provides non-survivable wounds if placed in the chest cavity. The Accubond 165 and 180 grain loads are every accurate barrier penetrating loads that also work well on large game such as elk. Nosler Partitions in 150 grain are also excellent loads in 308 and on par with the 155 gr. A-Max. Rifles would include pre-ban H&K 91's, Springfield M1A's, and FN-FAL's. I prefer the latter and have significant trigger time on all three. DSArms makes fine FAL variants for nearly every need you can imagine. The various AR-platform 308's have all provem problematic to date. There may be better options on the horizon, but it's too soon to tell.

Handguns: 9mm: Glock 17 or 19, S&W M&P, H&K (various models), Springfield EMP, CZ or Armalite CZ-75 are all excellent handguns. (There are other fine 9mm pistols, but this list covers some pretty fine stuff.) Pick the one that fits your hand and you shoot the best. Everyone has a favorite. All those listed are excellent and will provide reliable service. Each has its faults and strengths, but they will all work well if you learn to shoot them and PRACTICE a LOT. GET PROPER TRAINING.

40 S&W - At this time I have to put the S&W M&P at the top of this list. Unlike the Glock 40's which have proven troublesome in this caliber, the M&P was designed at the outset for the 40 and has a longer frame life than the Glock by at least 10k rounds. They are also far more ergonomic to a majority of human hands. H&K also has some nice 40's, but the ergos on the Smith allow them to give less felt recoil than any other 40 on the market. This is subjective of course, but it is very noticeable in side-by-side comparisons. the interchangable back straps also allow them to fit nearly any hand.

45acp - Springfield, CZ, Nighthawk (ridiculously expensive) make fine 1911 pistols that usually work well from the box. 1911's tend to need tweaking. If going the custom route on 1911's (recommended), I'd start out with a Colt new model Series 70 (not the original Series 70) or Caspian frame/slide. Stay away from any 1911 with the Swarz safety, which means the S&W's and any Kimber with a "II" in it's name. For non-1911's, I'd look at H&K and the new S&W M&P. Glock 45's are problematic, irrespective of those on this forum who have one that's never given problems. They also don't fit too many hands well.

In pistol calibers, get the one you shoot the best. With modern JHP's, there's statistically little difference in effectiveness provided you use good quality JHP's. If you are forced to use FMJ, then go 45 since it is the only caliber listed that will create secondary missile wounds from crushed bones as it passes through. The 9 and 40 can't do this in FMJ. Almost anyone can shoot 9mm, and my 5'1" wife shoots 9mm and 45 acp very well, having competed some years back with a 45 auto.

Shotguns: This one is easy. Get a Remington 870 Police model. If you can afford it, get one customized by Hans Vang. Sorry, but the Mossberg and Benelli guns don't have a good track record when handled harshly (as in survial conditions). They may be fine on the range or in the hunting field, but when they start getting banged around and abused, the alloy receivers cause fits. As with all things, YMMV.

This only covers defensive firearms. If you want more traditonal hunting style rifles, etc., there are simply too many fine firearms out there to try to list.

For rimfire rifles, I like the Marlin Papoose for a take-down rifle or the out-of-print Marlin 39 TDS. The new Browning T-bolt is a nifty, lightweight bolt action 22 rifle that should be great for survival purposes, as would be nearly any Marlin, Savage, or CZ bolt gun, the Marlin semi-autos and the ubiquitous Ruger 10-22. I have an old Remington 541-T that shoots like a theodolite. It's my favorite squirrel rifle ever. Whatever you get, put good optics on it. They are at least as important as the rifle inself.

Others will have differing opinions, but if you stick with the firearms lised here, you won't be doing bad. There are many current firearms in vogue I did not mention due to problems being encountered in the field. The firearms I listed are those I know tend to work and work well. However, all of these are of course made by man and so you can get a lemon. And as with all things, YMMV.

This has all the makings to become a heated debate. Gun/calibre choices always do....

Guns are like beer, we all have a brand we like best but at the end of the day they will all get you drunk.

I wont get long winded, rather I will simply say that if you stick to the tried and tested calibres you will not go wrong.

I stick to what history has proven effective and I stick to the theory that if it isn't broke then don't fix it.

for a rifle a .270 or a .308 are excellent on large game, and widely available. IMHO nothing beats the good old .30-06, They will drop any game on this continent, regardless about what the high calibre nuts will try to tell you. You can go from a 65 gr sabot round for varmit hunting up to a 250 gr monster for polar bear all with the same gun. They are cheaper and widely available.(some calibers are impossible to find) EVERY single new fancy gun I can think of right now has a model chambered for one of these calibers. For a good reason too, they work. And my .30-06 has dropped more game than my friends .300 win mag. The performance between the two cartridges may become a factor at 500 + meter shots, but I usually don't shoot that far while hunting anyway because the risk of wounding game at those ranges is too great. Even so, WW II snipers had no problems dropping enemy troops at 1000 meters with an 06. The .30-06 has been the standard by which every other hunting cartridge invented since has been judged, and after 100+ years it is still the most popular hunting cartridge worldwide. Do a quick Google search an do some reading and you will be amazed at the history of this round.

The same applies to the good old .45 ACP, the .357 mag and the 12 gauge, all have been proven effective in combat, or the field by police, military and hunter alike.

This is not to knock the other calibres out there, as there are some fine ones indeed.

Its best to fire a few and pick what you like most and work from there. But depending on your choices there may be problems. I sold my .338-06 because I just cannot find ammo for it anywhere, nor can I find the reloading dies to reload the rounds myself. As with any gun purchase, there are certain aspects of logistics that need consideration. I can walk in to ANY gun store in Canada and find .30-06, .308, .270, .22 LR, .45 ACP, .357 mag, .38 spec OR 12 GA. Re-loading components are cheap and brass/hulls can be found at any gun range for free.

Popular calibers are cheaper to by factory made as well. A box of .410 bore will actually cost more than twice the amount of 12 ga ammo.

just MHO. Happy shopping

Definitely agree with the 12ga and .22LR.

.223 is fun to shoot but there are a lot of areas that won't allow it for whitetail hunting, so I wouldn't call it a game round for North America.

.30-06, 30-30 and .308 seem to come down to personal preference. I find them equally available, but since I don't hunt any more or do long-range target shooting I haven't bothered to buy a rifle of this size.

Handgun ammo is more divided. I shoot .40 S&W because I like the combination of speed and whack, but I've considered a .357 magnum revolver paired with a lever action rifle in the same caliber. Simple, Luddite, non-tactical technology that would also shoot cheap-and-easy-to-find .38 Special. You can take deer with .357, too, although not at great ranges.

If I was buying solely for survival purposes, it would be:
Ruger 10/22 .22LR semi-auto rifle
Mossberg 500 12ga shotgun
Smith & Wesson 686+ .38/.357 revolver
Marlin 1894C .38/.357 rifle

If it was one long gun for survival, hunting, and defense; Hands down the 12 guage. IIRC, the late renowned gunsmith and cartidge designer Frank Barnes once quipped if that he had to chose a single gun to travel the world with it would be the 12 guage. Good enough for me.

Now, if you are going to throw a handgun in the mix I'd go with the .22LR. Pistol or revolver? Your choice. Non-destructive on little critters of the meat variety.

If you need to have a rifle then I belive the .30-06 is the ticket. Caveat, the .308 crowd will call you nuts and say you can take equal game with their darling. This cartidge applies to the Continental U.S. If you are going north of the 49th parallel then the either the .338 Win Mag is probably a better choice. Fierce critters in the arboreal North; Canada and Alaska.

All that to say this: Like IzzyJG99 says - 12 guage. Although I prefer the Ithaca 37.

I love how this turned into another 'what gun' debate almost in the blink of an eye.

Personally I haven't decided what make and model I'm going to buy because as far as survival guns go I never intend to put myself in a situation where my survival relies on the function of a firearm...my purchase will be purely recreational with survival in mind...way in the back of my mind.

Taurus has good advice above.
Regarding handguns I would lean to the .357 just because you can also use .38cal.
The .22 is a given, you need one, rifle, pistol or both.
12ga. shotgun, you can't go wrong with a Rem. 870.

MichaelJ:
Where do you live, do you plan to stay home or bug out? What is your experance with firearms?

Thanks again for all the feedback.
big al, I live in Minneapolis, MN. (a city of 400K). My current plan is to bug in. If there is a lot of warning though, I'd probably relocate to rural MN. I have friends and family in several small towns throughout the state.
I have very little experience with firearms. My father has three pistols (2 9mm autos and 1 .22 revolver). He never uses them and I take them out several times a year. My uncle is an official gun nut, with a huge collection, mostly of rifles. He took me rabbit hunting for the first time this past winter and then gave me the .17 I was using. I've been to the range with him one other time firing a bunch of different .22s/.17s and .22 mags. He also let me burn through a 30 round clip in his Mini-14. I'm going to the range with him again this weekend and plan to try 30-06, 308, 30-30 a 25-06 and a few others to get a feel for them. After that I'm hoping to make my decision so I can learn the gun inside and out over the summer. I always defaulted to the 12 gage for a shotgun, but a guy I know in law enforcement recommends the 20 gage for those that aren't planing to hunt regularly, less kick.

FWIW, I recently bought a 870 and some slugs, and eagerly took it out to the range. The kick shocked the hell out of me! After 5 rounds I was done. So... what to do?

I bought an after-market recoil pad, and man'd up. Went back out, and put about 30 rounds through. The pad really helped. Enough so I finally got the sights lined up properly for me.

Then I played with some #4, some 00 and a "defense" round sold by SG- 1 .650 pellet with 6 00 rounds. For all of these, the recoil was minimal. The #4 was almost a joke, a loud big brother to the .22. The other 2 were still less than either rifle I own, and much less than the slugs.

So, I'd say you'll be OK with a 12-g, even if you're a smaller guy. Hell, I'm 5'8" and about 165... not exactly NFL material!

I was born in Branard Mn. Just north west of you.
My pick would be:
1. 22long rifle, cheap ammo, easy to store alot and light in weight if you have to go.

2. 30-30 rifle, large enought to get any thing in your state and can be down loaded to get smaller game than deer, buy a Lee Loader and you can reload the shells you have shot. light weight and will take out zombes with no trouble. ammo is easy to find and not expensive.

3. 12 ga. for all the reasons stated by outhers, ammo is easy to get in any area, but heavy to carry alot of it.

now you have my 2cents worth. Isn't this fun trying to deside what to get, If you are married take your wife along when you go shooting, you never can tell, she my like it then you can buy her guns and stuff

A good, basic bolt action in 22 lr is probably the ideal practice gun for marksmanship. It is also a fine gun for plinking, small game hunting, and occasionally bird hunting under the right conditions. It is a poor self defense firearm choice. It's effective range limit is somewhere between 50 to 100 yards. A good used bolt action 22 lr can be had for around $100.

The most popular cartridge/action combination is the winchester model 94 lever action rifle in 30-30. It has taken more big game in the US than any other firearm/cartridge combination. It is an adequate self defense firearm choice. It's effective range limit is somewhere between 150 and 200 yards. A good used lever gun in 30-30 can be had for around $300.

The most popular shotgun round is the 12 gauge. There is a fair balance in the popularity of various actions; break open doubles, pumps, and semi-autos. A good used pump action 12 gauge shotgun can be had for less than $300. A shotgun is not a rifle, as it has a smooth bore, although you can buy a rifled barrel for many models of pump-action and semi automatics that chamber a 12 gauge case. A 12 gauge using a modified choke has a nominal effective range of up to 60 yards for bird hunting.

A good basic revolver chambered for the 22 lr cartridge is an ideal practice pistol for marksmanship. A good used model can be had for $150.

A good basic revolver chambered for 38 special/357 magnum is an ideal general purpose pistol. Practice ammunition is inexpensive. Self defense loads exceed performance capabilities of any 9mm round, and it can be an effective hunting tool for up to deer sized game. A good used 357 magnum revolver can be had for less than $250.

I'm former LEO and for some reason, being LEO carries more weight than it should with a lot of people. A majority of cops are poor shots and don't know squat about firearms, although they all think they're experts. I was the firearms instructor for my department, and I have to disagree with the statement that 20 gauge recoils less IF YOU'RE TALKING DEFENSE LOADS. 20 ga. defense loads use smaller buck sizes (less penetration - not good) and come in high brass loadings. 12 ga. defense loads come in low brass offerings and are designed for women and small statured men. They come in 00 and 000 loads, which means excellent penetration and larger wound size per pellet than the typical #2 or #3 Buck in 2 3/4" and 3" 20 ga. buckshot loads. In side-by-side comparison, comparing defense load to defense load, the low recoil 12 gauge loads recoil less. Noticeably less. Especially when compared to smaller framed 20 ga. pumps. I would much rather shoot 2 3/4" low recoil 00 buckshot from an 870 than 20 ga. high brass buck loads. My little wife agrees. I also prefer the far more effective wound ballistics from the 12 ga. low recoil tactical buck or slug loads.

If you're talking low brass game loads in each, then that's a different story, but neither load is too hard on the shoulder.

I've found 12 gauge loads to pattern more effectively overall and in the game field 12 ga. 6 shot works fine on late season pheasant, whereas I moved up to 4 shot in 20 ga, to get the same penetration. The 12 seems to pattern better and the increase in velocity on high brass load 12's over high brass loaded 20's translates into better penetration within a given shot weight on the birds. For over thirty years I used a 20 ga. on pheasants, but recently decided to move back to 12 ga, for the above stated reasons. It's just more universal.

Not knowing the terrain features in your area, I'd be hard pressed to say what rifle/shotgun fits your scenario. Is actual self defense a factor or not? You sure won't be killing too many deer or birds or small game within the city limits of Minneapolis. You need more experience and I'm still not sure of your actual uses. In my first post, I took your question to mean firarms for self defense and I responded accordingly. Having grown up in a very high crime city, a survival gun meant something that came between me and perdition and for everyday carry, that translates into a concealable pistol. For both on duty and off and now as an ex-LEO management consultant, that for me was/is a custom 1911. It's never failed me, conceals well, has terrific ergonomics, and contrary to current thinking, I was never undergunned with it, even when facing multiple assailants. If you're only getting something to put meat on the table, any 12 ga, 20 ga and maybe a good 22 is all you need. If you intend to defend yourself or shoot game animals at distances exceeding 75-100 yards, then other things are in order.

Pistols are close range defense weapons. I disagree with the adage that a pistol is used only to fight your way to a rifle. Most city/suburban dwellers (like you) depend on a pistol as their PRIMARY means of self defense if they have a carry license. In any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, walking around with a rifle gets the officers attention in a hurry (and your neighbors too) and may get you more trouble than it's worth. Leaving a rifle or handgun in a car is a sure way to lose it when either a) the car is broken into, or b) the car is stolen.

By the way, the Mini-14 takes magazines, not clips. Clips may be used to feed the magazine, but the feed device on a Mini 14 (and AR-15, FAL, 1911, Beretta 92, etc.) is a magazine.

If I was buying one of each - handgun, shotgun and rifle, I'd go with: 9mm, 12 ga, and 30-06 hands down. Some might disagree with me on the 9mm, but its NATO and the most widely available pistol round the world over, high capacity mags are also a plus. I'd buy Hydra-Shok JHPs btw. You can't beat a shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot for home defense IMHO.

Nothing wrong with recommending 9mm, but here in the states, 38 special is still the most common centerfire pistol ammo. I have yet to see any place that sells a selection of different ammunition not carry 38 special, I cannot say the same for 9mm.

It is splitting hairs. I reckon there are darned few places you can go where 9mm is not available, but I have found at least a couple, and in those situations the 38 spec ammo was.

I'd also recommend something much smaller than buckshot as a home defense load alternative. Actually, a blend of different shot size ammo would be ideal. Even #4 buckshot will overpenetrate in a house, picking up unintended secondary targets if you are not careful. A load of #4 field shot is an effective manstopper at household ranges and won't overpenetrate like #4 buckshot does. It still generates about a ton of energy at the muzzle, and at 30-40 feet it won't be much less.

Just another side note MichaelJ.

Don't let the recoil of a 12 ga put you off. Try one out if you are not familiar to see how you handle it. Some people have problems and some don't but as others have said, it's hard for any 20 ga to come close to the performance of a 12 ga. Most 12s take a whole gambit of different ammo ranging from reduced recoil 2 3/4 inch to 3 1/2 inch magnums. If recoil is a concern then you have the ability with a 12 ga to drop to less powerful ammo. If you have a 20 and find you need MORE power, your options are limited. Barrel porting etc can also be considered as an option to drop felt recoil(most new models come ported from the factory)

a 12 ga with a ported barrel, a good shoulder pad, a heavy stock and reduced recoil rounds will have very light felt recoil. You will have the added pellet count and the versatility of still being able to go up in power if needed.

There is nothing wrong with 9mm at all IMHO. I have this conversation a lot as my issued sidearm is 9mm. I am actually cleaning mine at my desk as we speak.

It all depends on shot placement. I personally can shoot a .45 better than the 9mm so I like to stick to what I shoot best(for the guns I own at least) but a 9mm is easier for most people to shoot as there is very little recoil. A steady aim and a double tap from a 9mm will drop someone just as fast as any other handgun if your aim is true.(assuming he is not wearing plates) People often get in heated debates about stopping power but how many have any real world experience to back it up? personally I would not like to be shot in a vital zone by any calibre, but given the choice I would rather take a .40 to the leg than a 9mm to the chest.

If you can become highly proficient and accurate with ANY reasonable calibre, then you are a deadly force to recon with.

Beware the man with only one gun........

For what they cost for good ones, I'd say both.

As stated in my first post: 9mm, 38 Spl, 40S&W or 45acp are all good service cartridges, though these days 38 is best in a backup role. 9mm is universally available in the world today and has recoil tolerated by anyone in good health. Arthritis and other diseases may make any pistol above 22 a task, but unless you suffer from this or similar ailments, a 9 is fine if properly loaded. The new M&P 9mm by S&W may just have the lightest perceived recoil of any service grade 9mm available.

Hydrashoks are about three or four generations old and while they have always been very accurate and fed well in anything I ever used them in, they are not the best choice today. The post pierces tissue prior to the main part of the expanded projectile and as a result the wound profile is considerably smaller than from a comparable hollowpoint that does not have the post. This also causes excess penetration as a result. Additonally, these rounds perform poorly (don't expand, over penetrate) against heavy clothing, such as will be encountered in winter months. Dr. Martin Fackler did research on this phenomenon and published the results some years ago. He also wrote a letter to Federal advising them that this ammunition had increased liability concerns as a result of these tests.

For a 9mm, there are many excellent loads to use today that work against heavy clothing, etc. 24/7. The Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. standard pressure and their 124+P loads, available from either Speer or Black Hills, both offer excellent performance. They expand well and penetrate within the desired parameters (12"-18" in living tissue), with penetration in the 13" to 15" range. This is nearly ideal. These rounds are readily available to non-leo. Another good load is the Remington 147 gr. Golden Saber. If you have access to it, the Federal and Winchester LE-only ammunition is excellent. You can get it in bullet weights/loads ranging from 124+P, 127 gr. +P+, 135+P , and 147 gr. in both standard and +P. Pick the load that shoots best in your pistol, put a couple of hundred rounds of this through it to ensure reliability and then stock up whatever amount you think is prudent/can afford. The LE ammo is not llegal for civilians. This is a manufacturer decision and anyone can carry it if you can find it. Gun shows tend to be a good source.

For snubby 38's, try standard pressure wadcutters. They don't expand, but they cut a 36 caliber hole and tend to follow a straight path, cutting and crushing all along. In spite of their low velocity, they offer excellent penetration. They are excellent for any snubby, but in airweights they really shine due to their lower recoil. Being target loads, they are also very accurate. For something hotter, the Speer 135 gr. +P load was designed specifically for use in snubbies. It gives good expansion and penetration, even against heavy clothing. This is not a good load against auto windshields, but fine for everything else. This load is intended for snubbies. Don't use it in longer barrels as it will overexpand and underpenetrate. Underpenetration will get you killed since the rounds don't get to the boiler room. Black Hills also has an excellent SWCHP designed specifially for snubs. The older Chicago load - 158 gr. LSWC-HP, along with the Hornady 158 gr. JHP are fine for longer barreled 38's. Winchester produced a LE load that still shows up occasionally for longer barreled 38's. It was a 147 gr. +P load. It only performs well in barrel 3" or longer.

For inside a bedroom, a load of #4 shot will probably suffice, but if you must shoot across a house - I have shots in the house in excess of 15 yards, this load simply gives TOO shallow penetration. #4 buck would be better in a house, but it has not proven to be a good load over the years. Shallow penetration prevents the pellets from getting to the boiler room. I no longer prefer a shotgun for home defense, but on those rare occasions I do, it gets low recoil 00 buck. It doesn't over penetrate -- unless you miss and they all are a problem them -- even birdshot. I know a former Gary, IN cop who nearly killed his baby daughter when he had a ND with his shotgun and the shot went right through the wall just above her little body. If I recall correctly, he had bird shot in it. My aunt was killed by an ND from my drunken uncle when I was just a boy and I think he had #6 shot in his old '97 Winchester. The distance was inside three yards and she didn't die instantly, but pretty close to it. But then, she wasn't hyped up on dope either. At that distance, there was no shot spread and penetration was such that she was literally all over the room. These days I have resigned myself that a good 223/5.56 carbine is best, since it has less penetration in a house than shotgun and pistol loads and is far more precise. There are many studies to back up what I say on this, so you don't have to believe me, I'll gladly provide references. It's the real reason most cops have gone to 223/5.56 over 9mm subguns and shotguns -- less collateral damage.

Those who advocate 30-30, 30-06, etc. are correct if they are using it outside a home, but if you think the information I've provided doesn't meet your favorite rifle, I advise you that all of these calibers give excessive penetration from misses (not hits if properly loaded) inside a typical home than the loads I mention above. The 155 gr. Hornady A-Max and 150 gr. Nosler Partition fired in either 308 or 30-06 should not overpenetrate even at contact distances, IF YOU HIT WHAT YOU"RE AIMING AT. If you miss, look out. I think pre-planning and careful consideration of your individual needs/locations will preclude you having to deal with the problems of overpenetration within a dwelling. Our house is set up so that I can safely cover our bedroom door without indangering anyone sleeping in the guest rooms. However, if I have to leave that room, then all bets are off. That's why I prefer to hole up in the bedroom and let the intruder come to me. We rarely have overnight guests, so that is typically not a problem. Your situation may be entirely different and only you can determine what works best for your needs.

I stick to .45 ACP, .38 special and 12 ga #4 buck for HD ammo. I can speak from personal experience that a 7.62mm bullet in FMJ will grossly overmatch and pass through a human body at moderate range with considerable KE left on the other side.

Even expanding bullets will pass through and through a large deer from my .30-06 at 150-200 yards.

Unless there was NO other option, I would NEVER use a medium to large caliber rifle cartridge for home defense. MHO

Please reread what I wrote. I do not advocate using a 308/30-06 for home use. In fact, I specifically warned against it unless you use specific loads. (I would not use it!) I never mentioned FMJ, nor would I. As you state, grossly overpenetrating. M80 Ball will pass through two cement blocks and anyone standing behind them. However, the Hornady 155 gr. A-Max has penetration in living tissue in the same range as many 9mm loads (about 14") and the wound channel is horrific, impressive, or whatever other word you choose, but it WON'T overpenetrate the human torso any more than the best 9mm loads.

Please read this from Dr. Gary K. Roberts. Good info.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001277

Author Topic: LE .308 sniper loads
DocGKR
Ammo Wan Kenobi
Member # 582

Member Rated:
posted 09-19-2006 03:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There has been a significant amount of scientific testing yielding repeatable, verifiable, irrefutable factual data rather than mere opinions. For a perimeter role a 5.56 mm AR using appropriate ammunition is probably just fine; it might even be OK as a sniper support weapon as long as shots into vehicles or through intermediate barriers are not a common concern. Having said that, as a LE or military true sniper caliber, as contrasted with DMR or patrol/perimeter applications, the 5.56 mm just does not cut it, as there are far better choices: In a bolt gun, a 16-20" .308 is ideal and if a semi-auto is desired, a 12-16" 6.8 mm is optimal. Night vision capability w/ IR laser designator is an operational necessity; ASA data shows 43% (95/219) of sniper incidents occured at night. Visible lasers are another option that should be strongly considered. Good sound suppressors are also becoming mandatory items.

While snipers like to talk of head shots, there are an inordinate number of torso hits in the law enforcement forensic literature. As posted above, ASA indicates 47% of sniper shots were to the head (104/219), while 53% were to the body (115/219). As a result, law enforcement sniper bullets need to exhibit terminal performance which can consistently induce rapid incapacitation with shots to the torso, as well as the head. If you use a 5.56 mm, what happens when if you have to shoot through a window or into a vehicle, how about if the bad guy has something over his chest--perhaps AK mags? 5.56 mm is suddenly not looking so good:



Superior terminal effects and barrier penetration ability are why .308 dominates LE sniper use; .308 accounts for 74.5% (161/216) of sniper shots chronicled in the ASA data base. Historically U.S. law enforcement and military snipers have chosen the extremely accurate, competition proven .308 Sierra Match King OTM bullets in 168 gr (M852) or 175 gr (M118LR). Unfortunately, the SMK’s have significant terminal performance problems, including very inconsistent behavior, that render them a poor choice for LE sniping. In addition, SMK’s will frequently exit the target and pose a significant downrange hazard to innocent bystanders and friendly personnel. In fact, according to ASA data, 90% of SMK shots have exited the suspect and posed a downrange hazard.



As discussed by both Fackler and Haag, the cause of SMK inconsistent terminal ballistic behavior appears to be associated with the diameter of the hollow point at the tip of the Match King bullet. Match Kings produced in the 1980’s had tip diameters of 0.028” to 0.038”, while recent Match King tip diameters appear to range from 0.012” to 0.024”. The smaller the tip diameter of the hollow point, the more the Match King tends to behave like a FMJ bullet; conversely, increasing the tip diameter enhances bullet upset in tissue. Fackler and Haag both have reported that when the SMK open tip is enlarged to at least 0.055”, the Match King offers consistent expansion and fragmentation with virtually no change in accuracy.

As a result of their mission profile and typical engagement distances, military snipers are less affected by the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s than U.S. law enforcement snipers. For law enforcement use, the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s can have tragic human and litigious consequences. U.S. law enforcement snipers have two choices to avoid inconsistent SMK terminal performance: Demand that Sierra market specific law enforcement Match Kings with hollow point diameters of at least 0.055” or use a different bullet which offers both acceptable accuracy and more reliable terminal performance. Luckily, several bullets are available which more than meet the requirements of LE snipers. The .308 Hornady TAP loads using polymer tip AMAX bullets offer consistently superior terminal performance compared to standard SMK bullets, although the SMK's are generally a bit more accurate. Are LE snipers willing to trade a slight bit of accuracy to eliminate SMK variability & gain consistently improved terminal effects?



The 155 gr AMAX consistently offers nearly perfect terminal performance characteristics--ideal penetration, good fragmentation, and perfectly placed large temporary cavity. All of the .308 AMAX bullets we are aware of fired in OIS incidents to date have remained in the suspects' torsos; damage on autopsy has been quite impressive and exactly as predicted based on lab analysis. The 110 gr AMAX has a shallower penetration depth with a rounded temporary stretch cavity, while the 168 gr and 178 gr AMAX have deeper penetration than the 155 AMAX, with a more oval, narrower temporary stretch cavity.





Intermediate barriers are a significant issue for snipers. As noted, ASA states 23% (50/219) of law enforcement sniper shots involved intermediate barriers, typically glass. Unfortunately, the SMK is NOT a good barrier round.



Glass barriers are one of the most difficult challenges for LE snipers. OTM bullets like the SMK’s generally exhibit unfavorable fragmentation and trajectory deviation when fired through glass intermediate barriers, resulting in degradation of terminal wounding effects. Despite gunstore commando lore to the contrary, FMJ bullet terminal performance is extremely erratic against glass. Bonded JSP/PT bullets and true AP bullets like M993 are often able to defeat glass intermediate barriers while retaining their mass, although they exhibit very deep penetration in soft tissue and can be counted upon to exit the suspect and pose a downrange hazard. In addition, they are not always as accurate as other bullet designs. PT bullets, like the Hornady AMAX, offer better performance against glass than OTM bullets like the SMK, but are not the equal of bonded JSP/PT bullets or AP bullets. Currently the best glass barrier loads are the Black Hills loaded Nosler Accubond PT, Hornady Interbond PT, Federal Tactical using the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw JSP, Swift Scirocco bonded PT, as well as Barnes Triple Shock; all create similar deep penetrating wound profiles.



-- For military snipers and others needing long range accuracy, the SMK 175 gr OTM is the way to go.

-- For intermediate barrier penetration, the bonded rounds like the BH loaded Nosler Accubond, Federal loaded TBBC, Hornady Interbond, Swift Scirroco, as well as M993 AP are the best choices.

-- At this time the Hornady 155 TAP offers outstanding accuracy nearly on par with SMK’s, as well as more consistent terminal performance, better incapacitation potential and superior performance through glass intermediate barriers than SMK’s; as a result, the Hornady 155 gr TAP using the polymer tip AMAX bullet is the probably best general purpose choice for LE snipers. BH also loads AMAX bullets. The Nosler 150 gr Ballistic Tip PT, Hornady and Nosler 155 gr OTM, Federal 165 gr TRU JHP, Sierra Game Kings, and Weapons Unlimited Hostage Rescue JHP also work well.



If an organization wishes to retain the ergonomic, versatile AR15 system for sniper use without moving to the larger, heavier, more problematic AR10/SR25/Mk11/M110 systems, then the best option is to use an AR15 chambered in 6.8 mm instead of 5.56 mm. Interestingly, for LE purposes, the 6.8 mm potentially allows an agency to use one caliber for all their shoulder fired weapons. Not only does 6.8 mm caliber offer substantially better terminal effects and intermediate barrier penetration capability than 5.56 mm, it is also an inherently very accurate cartridge. In addition, the 6.8 mm was designed and optimized to work effectively in short barrels of 12 to 16 inches in length. The versatility, compactness, potential accuracy, and effective terminal performance of 6.8 mm allows an LE agency to standardize on one caliber and one semi-auto rifle type for multiple uses, including: patrol, entry, perimeter, sniper support, primary sniper, animal control, and personal close protection details. For information on 6.8 mm ammo choices, see: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001273
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2708 | From: Palo Alto, CA | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

I recommend actually going to the site, as the photos, images, etc. did not copy.

Oh no rly45acp, sorry.

I didn't mean to appear as if I was arguing a point. I think I quoted the text and went off of my own rant for a while. I love topics on terminal ballistics. In fact I made a career of it so sometimes my mind wanders away and I read things too quickly. Iread you wrong and For that I apologize.

You obviously know your stuff as well.

I only tend to argue when a book tries to tell me something that I know is wrong.




So many books hype up the 5.56 round but…….
I will fully agree here. I took 5 rounds to put a guy down with a 5.56 NATO. That is something I learned firsthand. I get into a lot of arguments where people try to tell me a bullet will do a certain thing because a book says so. (not you, I mean other people)

But now we are getting waaay off topic. Sorry MichaelJ

FWIW, as only between 30-06 and .308, I don't think you can ignore the choice of the rifle. If you lean toward a simple, bolt action like a "traditional" Remington 700 or Winchester model 70, then take your pick of caliber. If you want a newer "military" or "tactical" or "assault" style, then your probably looking at .308.

Strictly personal preference, if you going traditional time-tested bolt action, I'd go 30-06, basically for the wide choices of factory ammo loads. I don't think you as easily find the same range in .308, but you may.

I don't want to start a major debate, but I understood that the .308, being shorter in length overall, was better for semi-auto feeds than the 30-06. Full auto in any man portable in either round is a bear to control, either BAR or full auto M-14. Other than that, ballistic performance is darn close. I carried a full auto M-14. No, I could not control it in full auto.

My choice was a Winchester model 70, but then I've had it for 30+ years.

Good Luck Let us know you final choices

Taurus, no problem. We're on the same page. I totally agree with your comments above.

bws48 -- I tend to agree. Both of my hunting bolt guns are 30-06. I can build a 308 lighter due to the action length, but when I need extra oomph, I like the case capacity and ability to use longer, heavier bullets in the '06 case. Probably splitting hairs here in comparing the two, but I've always had a soft spot for the 30-06. Nothing fancy, no magnum name, but it works and works well. Mine too are pretty old. Well, at least one of them. I got it just after I got out of college in the early '70's.

I had some time on a full auto M-14 too way back when. Can't control it. A waste of ammo, barrel gets way too hot and you have nothing but noise to show for it. I did like the ability of the M-14 to hit things when something was between me and the "target" though and 7.62x51 gave me that in spades over the (back then) M193. Didn't like carrying it though. But then a friend of mine's father carried a BAR all over Europe in WWII and that kind of puts things in perspective.

The army sere instructors have studied this stuff to death, and have chosen the .22 rimfire semi-auto pistol as the ideal sere weapon.
http://www.sererescuesog.addr.com/USRSOG-Firearm.html

Whenever the unarmed folks ask which firearm to acquire, many of the responses seem to assume that the new gun owner will immediately acquire the skills and tolerances necessary to cope with 12 gauge pumps, high-capacity 9mm semi-autos, and military caliber long arms. Bad assumption. This sort of introduction to firearms is analogous to taking a new skier to the top of a black diamond trail and shoving him off, expecting skills to develop on the way down. Good way to discourage a new skier. It is easy to short-shuck a pump gun, easy to make an unloaded -gun error with a semi auto, easy to become gunshy with 30 caliber turnbolts. Folks new to firearms should start with wysiwyg weapons-.22 is a great place to start-revolvers - you can see the cartridges; single shot .22 rifles-there is no cartridge in battery unless you pick one up and put it in the chamber. Single and double barrel shotguns are immune to the mechanical failures of the magazine-fed weapons. If the new gun owner is bitten by the bug, he or she can easily move up to the larger bore/larger capacity weaopons as they develop the skills. I love the discussions, too-but we should try to be aware of the audience, and allow them the same, sensible introduction to firearms that miost of us had as kids-

Scoped bolt action is the way to go with a high power center fire rifle. Add a Harris bipod and you have a great rifle.

The 3006 gives you about 200 fps more velocity with the same bullet then the 308, yea it’s a longer action, but you get more power for it.

A gun pundit once wrote a fine article ( and I cannot find my copy) arguing a specific range of calibers in specific wieghts moving at specific velocities were required to confidently drop Bambi, Bart or that other obnoxious varmint.The all very good arguments also have a few caveats. True, the '06 can be loaded for everything from squib loads to varmints to deer and finaly bear ( Hemingway carried a Griffin and Howe .30-06 as his 'big gun' in Africa FOR CAPE BUFFALO.)But a RIFLING TWIST and throating that will stabilise a 220 grain bear load may prove mediocre with a 55 grain spitzer. And some people simply have different thresholds of recoil control, nothing unmanly involved. I find the .375 H&H a slow shove, while Weatherby cartridges seem an exercise in masochism. The 220 grain 06 was in fact standard 'bear medicine' in Alaska for many years until magnumitis overwhelmed common sense. I was part of a party with the grim task of killing a rather nasty Kodiak after he mauled a tourist. And it was my shot to the vertebrae that ended his life. My rifle that day happened to be a 7 Mauser loaded with a 174 grain roundnose, a combination considered a smaller equal to the 220 'o6. A post mortem found the poor animal carried a virtual display board of bullets in .30 .338 .35 and .375 calibers totalling well over a dozen poorly placed bullets. In the end, it comes down as much to the shooter as the weapon system of rifle and cartridge. Some people just 'connect' with a combination.In fact, the phrase 'Beware the one rifle shooter' is so true. I have a friend, WW2 Marine. He owns a pristine early Arisaka with intact Crysanthemum, bayonet and Norma ammunition. He routinely puts 5 rounds into the bull against guys with all manner of dedicated match rifles with scopes.

You are right, at my friends gun shop (I’m in there all the time and help out) people new to guns ask what gun you think they should buy first. We almost always say a 22 lr, but you can see it in their face that they think you are wrong and should have said a 9-mm or 357 Mag or a 40 S&W. They don’t want a 22, they want “Power” Most times they don’t listen to your recommendation and go with the high-power handgun.

I have seen that here on this BBS, people want a powerful gun, not a little 22 lr. It’s hard to fight this and get them to understand. I don’t even try at the gun shop any more. You make a recommendation for the 22, but if they want the big guns, so be it.

Everyone should own (and shoot) a 22 lr rifle and pistol or revolver. I’ve been into guns for 35-years, and the 22 is still my favorite thing to shoot. The 17 Remington and 32 Mag & 22-250 are close behind it. But the 22 is just fun to shoot.

Hi BobS



Most definitely, but then so is a BREN gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o4UY6aRgCs&feature=related

First firearm I ever fired was my dad's first also, a Winchester Model 02, single shot .22 about 26" long overall. First handgun I ever owned was a S&W Mod 17 (K-22) 6", also in .22. I still have them both, and the K-22 would be the last firearm I ever get rid of. I have a jillion rounds thru it, if I can see it, I can hit it (within the range of a .22LR)...

"...For snubby 38's, try standard pressure wadcutters..."

On one hand I want to kindasorta agree with you, but on the other I remember an officer who got shot right on the point of the chin at point blank range by an irate wife (his). Broke his jaw, knocked out a couple of teeth, but he didn't even lose consciousness...

That makes sense because that's how most of us started.....BB guns to pellet rifles to .22cal rifles and 410ga shotguns, etc.

Somewhere along the way, most us were introduced to short guns, usually when we could strap one on without the barrel dragging in the dirt as we walked.

Some of my best memories are of skipping school with our pellet rifles and fishing poles. We'd fish in the morning, hunt, kill, clean, and cook Robins for lunch, and then finish the afternoon off at the swimming hole. Yes, those were the good ole days!!!!

I am not a real 9mm fan, but sure wouldn't want to get shot with one. In my opinion, the worst thing about the 9 is full ball ammo, that stuff tends to drill a narrow little hole thru the target (assuming human), and lots of stuff behind the target...

The "Fluid Shock Principle" is clearly demonstrated by Ball Ammo. I liked the 9mm for boarding ships but I didn't like using it in other scenarios (land) because of it's lack of "knock down" capability.

.22 LR (Ruger 10/22 is my favorite) for survival hunting... while a GAMO pellet semi-auto can take down squirrel and rabbit easily, cheaper and quieter too, and is legal to shoot in town. For protection I would go with a 12ga. I am looking at the benelli M4 myself for a hopefully soon purchase. With that said I also have a 30-06 and .270 I prefer the 30-06 as I can control it more

-Todd

Yea air rifles should not be dismissed as a way to have a lot of shooting enjoyment.


The 22 rifle is the most fun for me to shoot, for handguns I like the 17 Remington the best. No kick to speak of, fun to shoot little critters with it (sometimes in the neighborhood) it’s a fun gun to shoot, and it’s deadly out to 175-yards.


At some point I’m going to see if I can fit a 177 cal pellet into a case and just use the primer as propellant. I need to get a Beaman pell-seat to downsize the pellet for this to work. I don’t know why I want to play with this????? Just something to play with.

I’m not a big fan either, and I would much rather carry my .45 or my .357 revolver over my issued browning HP 9mm. Personal preference.

A friend of mine was shot overseas with a 9mm by a new guy playing with his sidearm. The round went through 2 tents, a mattress, the corner of a barrack box and then clean through his leg. The FMJ NATO standard issued rounds certainly can penetrate. He was patched up and back to work in less than a week. True, a 9mm lacks the power of some larger calibers like the .40 or .45 but when placed in skilled hands it can be just as deadly as any gun out there.

That's FMJ, modern JHP ammo using bullets such as the new 147 gr Gold Dot, Ranger SXT or Golden Sabre are a whole nuther animal.

Military rounds are always ball ammo, seems to me that they should use a more deadly bullet type then ball.

It's because of the Geneva convention.

I handload hornady XTP in 125 gr for my .38/357 as well as WIN JHP-notched. I like hardballs in .45 but My para-ord likes hydra shock in 230 grain best so I stick to that.

I hand load 168 grain Barnes-x tripple shok for my .30-06 for large game and 150 grain Hormady SST for whitetails and have yet to lose and animal.

Those Barnes x bullets are mean bastards. I wish I could load a belt of them into my GPMG next time I go overseas.

This comes up a lot.
If you're talking about about a long term type of situation, I think a centerfire handgun for defensive use and a .22LR rifle for poaching (which is basically what it would come down to) would work OK. The .22 still isn't entirely helpless out to around 150 yards in skilled hands - as a teenager I could rountinely hit rocks the size of a coffee cup at that range with calm winds and a steady position. Add in the firepower of a 10/22 or maybe a lever or pump action and you do have something viable for self defense. It's not ideal but I have shot completely through cars with standard .22 LR 40 grain LRN so it's not to be underestimated.
For a little over $200 you can still get a new bolt action .22 LR and about 3500 rounds at Wal-mart, probably about $20 more for the package at a gun store. Everyone should have one anyhow, and at that price there is no excuse not to.

Handguns are too personal - pick what you like. For now, mine is a 9mm but a .357 would probably be more versatile. In my area, 9mm, .38 special, .357, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are all very common. The biggest predator I could end up facing is a black bear and although the 9mm and .38 are admittedly underpowered for bear defense, I still think the 9mm loaded with FMJ would work OK because it penetrates very well. As I said, it's what I have so it's what I carry in the woods. If I had to worry about bigger predators I'd have to upgrade, probably to a .44 magnum. For my uses though, I prefer smaller full-size or mid-sized guns. They are big enough to shoot well but compact enough to carry fairly easy - decent compromise.

I'd also add a centerfire rifle - whatever works best for you. I tend to gravitate toward the full power .30 caliber rounds because I cut my teeth on them - my first rifle was an SMLE. It depends on your uses. My environment dicates something that is powerful enough to reliably kill deer or black bear (I don't hunt bear and have NEVER had a bad ecounter with one but I need enough power to defend myself against them and I'd eat one if I had to). To me, that means I personally wouldn't be comfortable with less than a 30-30 or 7.62x39 in terms of power (especially for the bear). I also like the range of the .308 but wouldn't feel at all uncomfortable if a No.4 Enfield or Marlin 30-30 was my only centerfire. For the guys who live in Alaska, they're probably going to want more gun than that, although the .303 apparently has a good rep on big animals with 215 grain bullets. Environment and availability are the biggest factors in this choice. In my area, 30-30 and 30'06 would serve very well (tied for most available), .308 is still pretty good, .270 is pretty common, and even .300 Savage, .35 Remington, and .303 British are widely available.

I like shotguns but I think they are outclassed in many ways by other choices. Handguns are better for carrying, .22 LR is more efficient for getting meat (as are snares), and a centerfire rifle will often quadruple the range without giving up anything at contact distance. Shotguns are versatile but if you have the other three, you don't need versatile because you have the right tools for many jobs.
I do admit though that it has always been easier to get game with a shotgun than with a .22. The shotgun is just more forgiving. If you were hurt, tired, hungry, shivering, it does add an extra margin in. But for the cost of two 12 gauge shells you can carry 60 rounds of .22 LR. Some guys love them and that's fine. I like them too and am planning to get another as a knockaround gun, but I don't consider them a necessity.

Well this is a very wide open thread that could go a million different directions.
As a gun nut, I will say this; a firearm is a tool. Think of it as a hammer. There are a bunch of different types of hammers for multiple jobs. You can bang on everything with 1 hammer, but it doesn't mean that hammer was meant to do that job.
firearms are much the same way.
First determine the JOB
Second determine the Tool (rifle & style of rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver, semi-auto etc.)
Third (and by this point the second choice will have narrowed the feild considerably) Pic your Caliber or shotgun gauge.

I do not like the idea of a 1 gun for everything, but you can get away with any 3 of these 4.
one hand gun
one shotgun
one rimfire
one centerfire

But even doing that you have to buy one first, right. So wich tool is the most important to have first. Only you can answer that.

I have a decent collection, but setting here thinking, if I owned no guns at all (wich means I am not an avid hunter), what would I get first. For me it would be an AR15, m4 congfiuration (16" barrel)

They have very little recoil wich is good for a new shooter (unlike a 12ga, 30-06, 44mag, even 45auto) The report is rather loud, if that is a concern though.

Home protection is covered.

Survival is covered (large and small game) & No a .223 will not vaporize a squirrel or rabbit, just shoot it in the head, hence removing the head. Deer and hogs are shot all the time with .223's firearm regs be dammed.
JMO

Something along these lines:

This is getting fun. I think my second choice would be a rifle I do not even own, but have always wanted (much cheaper too)
A Marlin Lever Action in .44Mag, wich also shoots .44spcl's; wich is really like having two separate rifles.

.44 mag or .357 mag? I am trying to make this decision right now.

Nishnabotna,

I would go 44 all the way. It's more popular, better resale value. The .357 Lever is more of a novelty IMO.
Take that 44 and load 44spl's for home defence, wich are going to be moving alot faster out of a 20" barrel than they will out of a revolver. Potent Defence load.

Plus you can load it up with 300grain hunting loads and it will equal the ballistics of my 50cal muzzle loader shooting 300gr sabot loads. (around 1700 fps) That will put down any thing short of the Great bears at close range (100 yards or less), Not that they would bounce off a grizzley, just that you wouldn't hunt them on purpose with that round. (or I wouldn't)

Recoil is not an Issue, even the 300gr full house loads are about like a 30-06, slower on the shoulder, more of a push than a crack.

I like the Model 1894C



Ditch the stock rear sight in favor of a Ghost ring Aperture sight.

How about the Ruger 96/44?
Sorry if I'm hi-jacking this thread :p

Ok, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.

If I was just going with one gun, then it would be a 12ga shotgun - pump (ie rem 870). Wide wide range of applications.

If I was just going with two guns, then the above plus a .357 revolver. An autoloader is 'sexier' but the wheel gun is much simpler, more reliable and easier to work on. If I was to be located outside the US though, I'd definitely consider something that fires 9mm.

If I was going with 3 guns, it would be the 2 above plus a .22lr rifle.

If I was going to go with 4 guns, then a center fire rifle in 5.56 or 7.62x51 (.308). I'd put this down at 4th, because I can't envision a high probability situation where I need to take out a target @250 meters. And any big game hunting can be accomplished by getting within 100 meters and using a slug from the 12 ga. Any smaller hunting can be done with trapping, or the .357 or 22 rifle.

Finally (and much much lower in priority to the above 4) would be a .22lr hand gun.

IIRC: Model 1894C is .357 the Model 1894 is the 44 mag

ToddW

You are correct I meant to post the 1894SS. Thanks for the correction.

Hi All,
Just a follow up. After firing a dozen different calibers this past weekend, I've come to a few conclusions.
Due to the ease of use and price of ammunition, the .22 will be my primary firearm. A close second would be a 12 gage shotgun with both a smooth-bore and slug barrels. Deer hunting in this area is restricted to shotguns, though in a survival situation, I don't know that it would matter. For a longer range rifle, I'm going to go with the .243

Thanks again for all of your input. You all helped me ask the right questions.

I know that the Papoose comes with a 7 round magazine.

Do you know if a 10 round magazine is available for this rifle?
Also, can you mount a scope on this rifle?

I just did some googling, per the Marlin website, the receiver is grooved for a scope. No luck with any aftermarket or 10 round mags...

I have a Papoose. Good rifle. Yes, you can put a scope on it. I have a cheap 4-9 zoom. It even fits into the bag with the scope on it.

It has two groves along the receiver. Uses standard 22 clamp type scope mount.

What about the magazines? Do they exist as 10 round species?

Hi Redflare,

I bought a Marlin Papoose last year and am pleased with it. When I bought it I also bought an extra Marlin 10 round silver coloured magazine, it works just as well as the standard 7 round.

It will take standard grooved .22 scope rings but I think I am going to put a peep sight on the receiver to keep the light/handy/streamlined feel to it. I did add a black nylon Uncle Mikes Mountain sling with QD swivels. When I am brushing trails in the fall I carry the light rifle on my back and forget it is there until a grouse appears (the stupid northern sitting on the ground, soon to be dinner, kind of grouse).

Mike

Hey Mike,

Thanks, for the info! It looks like I will be getting a Papoose for myself fairly soon.

While we are on the topic, what is a peep sight?

"...what is a peep sight?..."

A rear sight with a little bitty hole in it. Think AR-15 type, if you are familiar with them. Very accurate and easy to use...

So, if I am getting this correctly, it has a hole in it and you could mount an optical scope on top of it?

Yes and now. Usually when you mount a scope on a shoulder fired weapon you can not use any metalic (fixed) sights that are installed. But if you remove the scope you can use the metalic sights...

Hi Redflare,

A "peep or aperture" sight is a type of iron sight mounted on the rear of a rifle. It is just a simple small hole that you look through, you then align the front sight on the target and fire. This sighting system is quite old but still very effective. It is found on many sporting, target and military rifles.

I like to use a peep sight for a few reasons. You look through the peep hole but not at it, this allows you to focus on only 2 things, the front sight and the target, instead of 3 things. I find this is getting more important as I reach middle-age and my eyes are not focusing as quickly as they once did. I usually hunt with a scoped rifle (magnification, light gathering ability and single focus plane are an asset to me) but the peep is fast and effective at close range. A rifle with iron sights is more handy, can be more rugged and I find it easier to keep clear in foul weather (although quality scope caps help a lot).

I am going to put the peep sight on the .22 Marlin Papoose just to keep it light and handy, I rarely shoot at game over 30 yards with this rifle.

I found a good description of Iron Sight Types at Wikipedia located here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sights

Talking guns is fun,

Mike

Get a set of see through scope rings. I don't know if they will work with peep sights but they will with the v-notch type.

here's a good site regarding penetration of rounds of various calibers..

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Caliber choice is really dependent on where you live and where you may have to go. In a city a .22 might be fine or might not and there is no guarantee you'll be able to stay in the city when the balloon goes up. My philosophy is to carry enough gun to handle with authority whatever I may come across unexpectedly. A belligerent feral hog is a Cuisinart on four legs that would put a NFL running back to shame. A pack of feral dogs is much more dangerous than a pack of wolves. Farmer Brown's Guernsey bull can stomp you just as flat, just as quick and kill you just as dead as a Cape Buffalo if it gets out of it's pasture or you accidentally get in there with it. I suggest planning accordingly.

Perceived recoil is relative to the proper fit of a shoulder fired weapon when you start getting up into effective calibers and to a somewhat lesser extent with handguns. Stock length, length of pull, comb height, offset, cant and so on all contribute to perceived recoil or lack thereof. If you can find an out-of-the-box rifle or shotgun that actually fits you, consider yourself truly favored and blessed. If not, you really should consider finding a competent custom stock maker for your primary long gun. You'll be amazed at what you find "comfortable" with a rifle/shotgun that actually fits you.

I would expect a military goal is to take as many enemy combatants out of the fight as possible, not necessarily kill them. I guess it depends on how close they are to you and what immediate threat they produce. Using a super-hightech "One Shot Stopper (tm)" bullet would take out ... one enemy combatant. However, ball ammo would wound one, and then busy up a few others caring for and hauling their comrade around. So you've taken more enemy combatants out of the immediate fight. The longer it takes your ball ammo wounded target to finally die, the more enemy resources you tie up.

In close quarters urban combat the above theory wouldn't hold water. You'd want to take them out quickly so they don't shoot you back while they're hanging on waiting around to die.

Those countries that have signed the Hague Convention are restricted to ball ammo...

Link

take what u can hit with .no matter what cal if u cant hit all your doing is maken noise.22cal will take care of most if u can hit your mark .just my opion , you know what they say about opions .every one got one an most stink,,,

great place yall

We unfortunately saw the effectiveness of the "wounding takes more resources from the enemy" effectiveness in Viet Nam. IMHO its best to kill, as fast and as effectively as possible. Also keeps the media and sympathizers from parading pictures of the "horribly maimed and wounded" soldiers. Less of a PR headache and keeps sympathy down for the enemy.

-Bill Liptak