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#131846 - 05/02/08 11:02 AM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: BobS]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I do not hate the rich. But I really dislike it when they don't say "I can afford to pay more, so I will". Greedy hedonists will always tick me off. Money is a kind of power, and a great many of those that have it aren't using it wisely.

Sending The Fossett estate a bill I don't agree with. But I just am just as annoyed if they haven't tried to make donations to the agencies that participated in the search to refund the cost of fuel and supplies, and maybe even to improve those agencies' capabilities.

How many thousands of gallons of av gas were burned? How many people on foot were there? They had imaging satellites tasked to looking for him, federal and private. If I go missing, I'll get one or two aircraft for an afternoon, and maybe a couple of dozen ground searchers for a couple of days. The state isn't going to bring in search teams from other parts of the country. And no one will be talking congresscritters into having the NRO lend a hand. And my estate, such as it is, would do it's damnedest to make a contribution to the agencies that did show up.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#131847 - 05/02/08 11:08 AM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: ironraven]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Once the government (state or federal) gets the taste of this so far untapped source of money it will go after it with a vengeance.

_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#131848 - 05/02/08 11:13 AM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: BobS]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
No it won't.

Unlike the top 1% of the population who controls 25% or so of the private, non-corporate wealth in this country, the rest of us can't afford to buy congresscritters... sorry, hire lobbists and make campaign contributions.

Welcome to the fatal flaw of a republic.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#131851 - 05/02/08 11:43 AM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: ironraven]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
This has become yet another political rant. It is my view that charging for SAR efforts is appropriate. However, this is not the venue to which such issues should be debated, as we have been recently admonished by the moderators to cease and desist so doing.

Either we abide by the rules or we risk losing the privilege. Its up to all of us to comply.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#131853 - 05/02/08 12:02 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: benjammin]
Hookpunch Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 128
I agree with a few of the previous posters, she should pay for whatever resources were used to find Fosset that were in excess of what would have been used to find any other citizen.


As for actually paying for the SAR that was not in excess, as someone pointed out before, he wasn't on one of his risky expeditions, he was just flying a plane, so he should be accorded the same service as any one else.

If he had been trying one of his record breaking stunts , then I would agree he should be charged.

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#131868 - 05/02/08 02:10 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: Hookpunch]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
I agree with a few of the previous posters, she should pay for whatever resources were used to find Fosset that were in excess of what would have been used to find any other citizen.


I'd agree if it was at the family's request. If the state continued to search without a request, why should she be held to any different standard than other people have?

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#131872 - 05/02/08 02:44 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: UTAlumnus]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I doubt this is a matter of rich vs. poor, its simple economics. A very expensive search, made more expensive apparently at the request of Fossett's friends and family. The best mainstream account of the search for Steve Fossett was printed in Adventure magazine a few weeks ago, have a read: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/news/steve-fossett.html.

In there his friend Mark Marshall and primary organizer of the family's interests in the search is quoted (emphasis added): "Bunch said that some areas had been checked up to six times. Mark Marshall, Fossett's staff pilot, had called a couple of days earlier and **offered to pay team expenses.** "He told me, 'Don't stop searching because you don't have enough money.' Well, it's not lack of money that's stopping us. We have run out of places to search."

On such promises do attorney's rely, and bureaucrats who want to fund future SAR efforts rely as well. What SAR hasn't spent the next year's budget on an earnest search for a lost victim? And then spend 9 months fundraising to make it up? No one has spoken up, but the expense of the aerial and ground search was massive, beyond covering with bake sales and gear raffles. And lets be real, this isn't a matter of charging a grieving widow, its a matter of expensing a large estate at least some aspects of a SAR effort that were renewed at it's request. I suspect that any funds recovered from the estate will just pay for the next year's CAP fuel budget, which has gotta be pretty heavy given the increase in fuel prices lately.

I think the article's summary is pretty sobering, that for all the work and effort, it wasn't a very effective search, given the terrain and other aspects. Here's the money quote if you don't read the article in full:

"He knew from scouting work for the mine that the mountains nearby had steep, narrow, and tree-cloaked canyons a thousand or more feet deep. They couldn't be adequately scoped from the air, and many could be accessed only on foot. The search teams, he accurately noted, rarely strayed from their 4x4s. "I know this country, and when I saw them come through, I had to laugh," he said. "Just because you're search and rescue doesn't mean you know how to find someone."

The criticism was harsh and somewhat unfair. The search area for Fossett was so vast that planes, helicopters, trucks, and ATVs were essential. The searchers I met were deeply knowledgeable about the terrain and committed to finding Fossett. But—and there's no delicate way to put this—physical fitness didn't seem to be a priority for many of them. They were passionate about hunting, fishing, and ATVing, but they weren't backcountry types. These were traditional search and rescue operations, managed by county sheriffs' departments, not hard-core wilderness teams, the kind you find in the country's marquee national parks.

This hurt the effort. Here I stood in the area pinpointed by the investigation's two best clues, the radar tag and the eyewitness. It was rugged terrain, the sort that is particularly adept at keeping its secrets. And it was obvious that it hadn't been adequately searched. In the past month some of the most advanced technologies in the history of search and rescue had aided the quest. Maybe what was needed was a lot more boots on dirt."

And in retrospect this wasn't the public fascination with the rich, its more like the fascination our parents and grandparents had with Amelia Earhart, flying around the world - that SAR effort was run by the military, and the greatest ever launched at the time, with no greater hope of success than this one. This part of Nevada is unforgiving of pilot error or downdrafts, and if they do find Fossett's craft it will likely be smashed to smithereens on a mountainside or deep in a valley they had 'searched' many times before. If we can get past this issue of rich vs. poor, maybe there's some lessons in here similar to the Kim incident in Oregon.

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#131877 - 05/02/08 03:19 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: Lono]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


SAR workers are volunteers and there aren't strict requirements on fitness...though it's taken seriously by any group I'm familiar with. A volunteer might only be involved in a handful of searches a year...and an event that big would likely draw out even the most inactive members.

He was right though. There's no substitute for 'dirt on boots'. If the terrain is bad, then it just takes you longer to search it...even if that means taking 4 hours to move 1 mile in a straight line.

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#131892 - 05/02/08 04:52 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
To add more to this mix, The hilton's offered a huge reward, about
2 million if I remember right, and the onsueing hoard of freelance
searchers (mostly in planes) seriously endangered and hampered the civil air patrol
and others in the official search.

In most cases the lost and injured shouldn't be billed.

There are still places they haven't searched. I know of one eyewitness to a crash at that time that has not been checked out yet.
Our SAR group is headed down soon to get some nice backcountry
skiing in and see if any debris has melted out yet at the site.

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#131903 - 05/02/08 10:36 PM Re: Fossett widow to be billed for search [Re: UTAlumnus]
Hookpunch Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 128
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Quote:
I agree with a few of the previous posters, she should pay for whatever resources were used to find Fosset that were in excess of what would have been used to find any other citizen.


I'd agree if it was at the family's request. If the state continued to search without a request, why should she be held to any different standard than other people have?


Good point actually.

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