I'm sick and tired of taking my shotgun (12 g. 870 Remington)when kayaking. It's big takes space and is heavy. I was looking around and came accross AR-7 (007 From Russia with Love) which is a 22LR semi auto that has a detachable barell and 10 round clip and of course famous Springfield M6 Scout which is a single shot 22LR/410 shotgun. My main activities include kayaking and trekking. Now if somebody recommends M6 would you also tell me which version is more suitable 22LR or 22 Hornet. I know that 22LR is less powerful but common than 22 Hornet but wouldn't I get similar punch if I used slugs for 410?

Matt

Matt,

Pistol is out, right? (NYC).

Neither the AR-7 nor the M6 are good substitutes for a 12 gauge pump for self-defense. They have their uses, though.

What about a pistol-caliber short barreled (16") lever action carbine? Although... wall over-penetration will be an issue UNLESS "magic bullets" like Glasser safety bullets are the "urban load". (If you choose this route, I would go with either 44 Rem Magnum or 45 Colt as the caliber - they are far more versitile, especially the 44 if you are not a reloader).

Another alternative would be a short and relatively light 12 gauge single shot for kayaking - keep your 870 for the apartment.

I'm compelled to note again - despite what someone recently posted - on at least the first interior wall, it does not matter what size shot - a close range "miss" into an interior wall will completely penetrate two layers of wallboard (some old-fashioned plaster walls CAN be more resistant to over penetration by a shot charge - construction details matter greatly).

Anyway, a 410 with any load is not a very effective stopper - terrible wound, yes. I think you're asking to compare apples and oranges. If I wanted a combo gun, I would prefer a 22lr / 20 gauge (gee, I think I have one of those...).

YMMV...

Regards,

Tom

The current makers of the AR7 finally resolved it's marginal magazine feed. This weapon floats, a small + for your use. Accuracy can be affected by different tensions each time you assemble the barrel. For your use it should be adequate. The M6 has recently undergone a cosmetic change incorporating a pistol grip. I feel it is a step backwards. The .22 Hornet is a fine round, but expensive compared to .22lr. To glean the best accuracy ( especially in this piece), requires conversion to the "K" hornet, a simple reaming to convert the chamber walls to a straight improved configuration for increased shell life and moderate velocity increase. Reloading with milder pistol primers will dramatically increase acuracy. If you don't reload get the .22lr. The few factory loadings in Hornet are very marginal with this weapon. You might also consider one of the H&R family of single shot shotguns.

I think you first need to determine your intended purpose(s) for the gun. The choices will vary depending on your needs. Is it sport hunting, potential survival hunting, defense against critters 4-legged, or 2-legged. Handguns are useful & compact, but I assume they are not an option in your jurisdiction.

The AR-7 & M-6 are both a little anemic for defensive purposes. They're not unusable for defense, but they don't seem attractive as a deliberate choice either. If the individual gun functioned reliably & shot accurately, it could be an adequate harvester for small game. The M-6 adds a lower powered shotgun (.410) which could be helpful for guaranteed ground sluicing of a nearby bird or other small edible. The AR-7 adds quick repeat shots, a useful feature if multiple opportunities present themselves simultaneously. The M-6 is available in stainless steel, something that should be desireable for a boat gun. Somehow I can't get excited about either as a hunting gun. Maybe its the esthetics.

If defense is important, a larger caliber/gauge is desireable. Ammunition in 20 gauge is somewhat lighter than 12 gauge. You can also get pump shotguns and some lever actions in stainless steel. Unfortunately they they will still be heavy & bulky. Marlin has a lever action in stainless steel in caliber 30-30. A blued steel lever action might be available in a takedown version. A .44 Magnum fired from a rifle is a competent hunting and defensive gun. The ammo is lighter than 12 gauge & can be loaded up or down for big or small game.

Incidentally, the older Savage 24 combination gun was made in the middle 1980s in various rifle caliber, in 20 gauge, and in nickle plating. Unfortunately, I was not pleased by the quality of the nickle plating I saw. The Camper model, 24-C, weighed about 6# in .22LR/20gauge. The stocks were wood. They are a little hard to find, but they are occasionally available used. I don't think they've been made since the later 1980s. I personally like these older Savage 24s. My kids & I love to shoot ours.

Good luck,

John

Lots of ifs on tihis one, but here's my thoughts.
I've been looking at both of these for years now and have decided that if I do get one it would be the M6. The benefits to the AR7 are that it floats (very beneficial in your application) and that you can take a follow up shot if necessary. But I've always thought that if things were so bad that I needed the weapon for survival, it would be just my luck for the thing to break or jam. Bad thing for the M6 is that it's single shot, nice thing is that there's nothing to break or jam. I also like the versatility of having the .410 and the .22 in the same package. No, it's not as good as a dedicated rifle or a dedicated shotgun, but it appears to be good for what it is. As far as the caliber, I've shot both quite a bit (in diffferent firearms), and I don't think the Hornet gives you enough advantage over the LR for the weight and especially the price difference.
But it really comes down to why you take a firearm at all. If it's for survival hunting, then the M6 or AR7 might be a good choice, but if it's for defense against two legged threats, I think you're better off sticking with your 870. I don't even know how many types of 870 there are (quite a few), but if yours is a traditional hunting gun, you might want to think about putting a shorter barrel and synthetic forend and folding stock on it. I've done this to mine and it makes a big difference in weight and storability. I don't know about all the regulations up in NY, but it's probably a good idea to check on the stocks if that's the road you decide to take.

Hope this helps,

Chris.

Folding stock and forend

Interesting M6 setup

I have the M6 in stainless 22 Hornet / 410. I've shot it quite a bit and think it's a very versatile firearm. I chose the 22 Hornet over the 22 LR thinking that the Hornet could possibly take a deer (closer range - up to 100 yards). I'm trying different rounds to determine what shoots best for my M6. I'm trying slug and buckshot loads in the 410. There used to be a manufacturer of 410 flare loads but my understanding is that they are no longer in business (if anyone knows different I'd like to hear from you).

I look at the M6 as strictly a food gathering type survival firearm. The stock has places for extra rounds and the whole thing breaks down into a small size. Springfield makes a case for a broken down M6. The pin holding it together can be lost but other web forums suggest a number of fixes for that problem.

I'd like to try an AR-7 and have looked at the Henry's model. I'm still not sure about the durability of the AR-7's I have seen - they all look pretty flimsy to me. Anyone have better information on these?

As far as protection from the two-legged variety of critters, after finding three meth lab dumps out in the woods this week (and it's only Wednesday for crying out loud!) I'm giving that more serious thought.

Terry

I like my Marlin 22LR Papoose.

Its accurate, stainless and breaks down into a small package for travel.

And its about the right size cal to stop Chris's harpoon mounted mini, no problem!

Mike

They say American economy is bad but it doesn't seem like that here in NYC. Half the firearms dealers are cocky and half of them are scam artist... I call (and go) to 6-7 different stores and each one of them tells me that they don't want to bother with ordering the rifle for me. One store which is 2 hours away won't quote me the price unless I drive out there but claims to have the rifle in stock. Another store quoted me 2 times the MSRP. Now my favorite kayaking spot in PA(3 hrs away) has a gun store that I frequent. I called them up, got a price (reasonable!!), stock info and personal recomendation about the rifle. I'm really getting fed up with NYC attitude. That brings my childhood dream alive which is... I want to live some place awesome! It seems that folks outside NYC are nice, polite and respectful and now I understand why so many New Yorkers are being perceived as freaks and difficult.

Matt

Anything with hand grips is illegal in NYC . I mean I can order it and mount it but if there is a cop out there who wants to give me hard time than he can. I have a weapon that I modified about 7 years ago and nobody gives me problems but still that's something I would keep for home defense. Couple of POs saw that and they were impressed but there may be one cop out there who won't be.

I need no protection from two legged creatures. I need to have something stored aboard the kayak or stuffed in my backpack that when I get lost, flipped, stranded, left behind, marooned, forced to stay, etc etc I can take it out and have some kind of means to provide my self with food. I don't want to start WW III, I just want to be prepared.

Matt

For your application, I would go for the AR-7. Floatability is critical here.

I used an AR-7 for years, and liked it a lot. It is a plinking rifle and it is not insanely accurate. I am sure Chris is correct about different barrel tension affecting accuracy, but I could always hit the target. When I introduced my sons to firearms, we used it as a single shot, and I think I would employ it in that manner if I were in a survival situation.

My strategy when kayaking is to prepare for a situation where everything aboard the kayak is lost, and I am left with only what is on me. Therefore I always have liked PFDs with lots of pockets and lash points. I would think seriously about a handgun that you could keep on you if you want to be sure you retain a firearm.

Losing your kayak and its contents is not hypothetical. I was in a group off San Diego in which one of us was dumped by a wave. Said wave surfed his boat quickly out of sight in the rather dense fog and he lost the whoe shebang, including some nice camera gear secured in the rear compartment.

Original "Armalite" AR-7 with steel lined aluminum barrel : I owned the first production series from Armalite back in '64 when Col. Burton T. Miller hunting buddy of SAC chief Curtis Lemay worked at the Costa Mesa, CA plant. I took that gem everywhere I flew, canoed or hiked in Canada as insurance. The barrel had to be refinished time to time because the soft metal got beat up in the bush. The rifle had a tendency to jam with high load magnum rounds, so I fed them manually. The chamber required lapping to avoid jamming and a stronger magazine spring helped. Later I put a Bushnell 4X scope & mount, but found out that there was creep after sighting in a few rounds, the mounting ring would loosten and throw your pattern off. Since everything fitted in the butt, I filed a space for the scope mount and siliconed the cavity. Light, compact, quiet and economical with high short distance accuracy. Forget those long shots, I was always lucky getting ground hogs or crows. Until they develop a nuclear .22 stay away from large game. To show you how stupid I was, Armalite was about to LICENCE Colt for the M-16, so I took my leave money from the RCAF and blew it on whiskey and women in Hawaii..I should have bought stock in Colt and I would be writing this on my private island instead of freezing my ^$#@ in Canada .

I am not impressed at all with either of the guns you chose, quality is very suspect on both. I have never seen either one of these group or shoot worth beans, I personally like something with more punch too. Chris had the best idea of anyone with the single barrel shotgun.

Where I live you can buy a New England Firearms single shot 20 gauge for 79.95. Get a gunsmith to silver solder some rifle sights and you have a firearm that will take, with the right ammo, dove on the wing, whitetail deer, and anything in between. All for around 125 bucks, it is light and easy to carry, the added sights are for shooting slugs btw. Good luck with your choice

I live in PA. We have some of the nicest, smartest gun dealers anywhere here.

I’ve owned an AR-7 for more than 20 years, and while I have not shot it a lot, I think it is fine for what I bought it for – as a SURVIVAL rifle in a survival situation, i.e., someplace I didn’t expect to be without the usual stuff I might have. With the iron sights it is good to about 50 yards for small game, which is all you should tackle with a .22 LR anyway! If you’re in bear/big game country, you shouldn’t be counting on a .22 to get you out of a jam. I did splurge on some aftermarket 10-round clips that had a beefier magazine feed spring, but other than that, it’s still stock. It gets cleaned and oiled once a year, and when you consider all the variables – price, size, weight and abuse tolerance, I think it is one of the better all-around choices for a survival rifle.

Well Maggot, I think quality might have slipped in the last 20 years, because the current examples I have seen were really cheaply made and they wouldn't be in my top ten for a survival rifle. Ruger 10/22 with folding stock, thompson contender, any number of "youth" 22 rifles on the market, and in a knock down, root hog or die situation, a single shot shotgun, 22" barrel , rifle sights, interchangeable chokes, and a variety of shotgun shells. I am only talking about shooting food not defensive problems. Chris