Hello All,

I have decided to buy a firearm for home/property defense. I have been reading other posts in this forum about the subject, but since we have a very restrictive legislation about firearm possession in Brazil, it's dificult to me to make a final decision.

My situation is: couple without children, living in a five acres rural property with two rural employees. A few cases of violent robbery in the neigthborhood in the last years, and some accidents with feral dogs and venoum snakes.

I can legaly purchase a long and a short gun.

My options for long guns are:

01- .22 rifle, bolt action or semi-automatic

02 - copy of winchester 1892 in .38 spl (Rossi Puma)

03 - 12 gauge pump shotgun

my options for hand guns are:

01 - a revolver in .22, .32 or .38 spl

02 - a semi automatic in .22, .32 acp or .380 acp

The aquisiton of ammunition is also severely controled.

what combination of long and short gun do you think is the more adequate for my situation?

Thank you very much in advance,

Best regards,
Fabio

I would recommend for your situation the Rossi Puma (which i believe is a lever action) in .38 special and the revolver in 38 special. That way the ammunition is interchangeable between the firearms.

BUT depending on your firearms experience you may be better off with the 22 caliber firearms but I would worry about using 22s on the feral dogs and as self defense weapons.

The acquiring of ammunition is the biggest problem I can see in order to be proficient in the use of the firearms.

If it was at all possible I would recommend getting 4 firearms total the 22s for practice and small pest/snake control and the 38 special for self defense

Being that you are in Brazil I would recommend Taurus as a nice 22 revolver as I own a model 94 9 shot 22 from Taurus.

YMMV
Kirby

Shotgun with the caveat your wife, in fact everyone will need practise to become accustomed to the recoil. Forget 00 buckshot. The next pellet sizes down provide greater projectile # and chances of hits. Your limitations on ammunition should guide you to buy some shot usefull on snakes and the big stuff for feral dogs and feral people. For a handgun get the 38 or 32 REVOLVER.Anyone can master the 38 and lesser calibers. The famed pistol master, Ed McGivern stated it was the most powerfull cartridge that could be used for rapid fire under full control. The .32 is something of a ne plus extra for outstanding accuracy and little recoil.Again, your wife will probably be able to shoot it well under stress. Semi automatic firearms involve safeties and various loaded conditions.In a high stress situation a double action revolver is very simple, just pick it up and squeeze the trigger.

Assuming these weapons are intended for personal/home defense, the long gun should be: 03 - 12 gauge pump shotgun -- feral dogs, snakes, two legged varmints.

The only thing the handgun adds is that you can carry it easier; with the options you have, .38 Spl.

Personal opinion, mileage varies.

Hello from Oklahoma USA. We have lots of guns and ammo here and hope that you figure out what may be best for you soon.

IF I were in your situation and could only get one long gun and one hand gun (Can your spouse get one each also?????), AND I could get any ammo I wanted for the shotgun (OO Buckshot, Slugs, and birdshot) I would go with the shotgun and either a 22 revolver or a 22 semi automatic pistol.

IF I could not get good ammo (OO buckshot and slugs) for the shotgun I would go with a 22 semi automatic rifle and 22 pistol, either revolver or semi automatic.

A good pump action 12 gage shotgun such as a Remington 870, Mossberg 500 or 590, Winchester etc.. loaded with OO buckshot is handy for 30 yards and closer against bad people and bad dogs. Load it up with slugs and you should be able to hit out to 100 meters on bad people.

IF I could ONLY get birdshot I would skip the shotgun and go with a 22 long rifle semi automatic rifle that was RELAIBLE.

IF you could get a semi auto 22 "Ruger 10/22" rifle with several ten shot, or even 25 or 30 shot high capacity magazines loaded up with high velocity 22 long rifle, that could be an option for fighting bad people and bad dogs in an emergency.

A RELIABLE 22 handgun such as a Taurus revolver (4 inch barrel), Smith and Wesson Revolver,, or a semi automatic Ruger MKII or III or Browning Buckmark would be best for a handgun.

IF you can somehow get spare parts and magazines for the semi auto's and lots of 22 long rifle ammunition that may be the way to go.

It depends on what kind of ammo and how much you can get.

Good luck. Just thinking about your limited access to firearms makes me appreciate what we have here.

CP

Fabio,

For the long gun, I would choose the 12 gauge pump shotgun.

Since it appears that you don't currently own any firearms, I have to assume that your experience and training is limited, if at all. A 12 gauge shotgun will offer the best measure of home defense with the least requirement for training. The .22 is essentially worthless for home defense, while the Winchester would over penetrate the structure.

The 12 gauge also offers the most options for ammunition, including 2 3/4" "bird shot" for your snake problem, all the way up to 3 1/2" "buck shot" or slugs for home defense.

Perhaps one of the best features of a pump shotgun is the unmistakable sound that it makes when a round is chambered. More than likely anyone hearing this would immediately exit your home without you having to fire the weapon, and consequently deal with all the legal and civil ramifications that would ensue should you ultimately need to take someone's life.

For the hand gun, I would choose the semi automatic chambered in .380 ACP (essentially a 9mm shorty). This round is probably the bare minimum for personal defense, yet is still something your wife could easily handle with some practice. The semi automatic will offer you significantly more capacity, although will be more likely to misfeed or jam than a revolver, so you should practice clearance drills from time to time.

Jim

For your purposes, I agree with others on the twelve gauge shotgun. Excellent destructive power at close and far ranges and relative ease of use. Buck shot for closer ranges and slugs for out to about 100yards.

For on your own property, a shotgun will probably fill all the roles you need. If you're set on getting a pistol as well, it depends on its primary purpose. For cheap practice and efficiency for killing animals, buy a .22 either revolver or automatic. If you plan on carrying around your property to defend against a human attacker, I would choose either the .38 special or the .380, depending on your preference for either a revolver or an automatic. Automatics in .380 tend to be straight blow back though, so they require a fair amount of strength to load.

For snakes a long handle shovel is usually sufficient (and probably safest). You can pick up and move non-venomous snakes and cut the heads off of venomous ones. Pin the snake behind the head with the blade and then just force it through like you're digging a hole. A sharp shovel will cut through just about anything. Plus the long handle gives you pretty good distance for safety.

The 'two guns, one cartridge' concept is an old one, and a good one. The problem lies in actual performance. First, what shoots well in one system can shoot very mediocre in another. Fabio may be limited to the classic 158 grain RN .38 special. But if,ie he can get semi wadcutters or hollowpoints that little Rossi may enounter feeding problems, especially in a high adrenaline situation where short cycling ( also a wory with the pump) is a potential problem.

My choices would be the 12 gauge shotgun and a 32 or 38 revolver, my preference being the 38.
In my opinion, due to the restrictions you have for the automatics, I would steer clear of them. Not enough power, again just my opinion.

smitty

12 gauge pump, 38 special revolver

Reasons: reliability, simple design, stopping power, ease of use

If you're forced into defending yourself: for defending a fixed position the 12 gauge will be your friend (except for the recoil!) If you're moving about, the handgun will be easier to maneuver.

If you decide to get a 22, stick with the bolt action rifle and/or the revolver. I've never fired a 22 semi-auto anything that didn't jam on occasion. 22's can of course kill, but they're not generally considered strong defensive weapons. More target shooting and small varmint hunting.

380's are marginal in stopping power in my opinion, and the small semi-autos can be real hand biters (the slide comes back and takes a bite out of your hand, depending on how well you grip certain models).

A 32 combines the worst of the 380 and 22 in my opinion.

For snakes, don't try to do the aiming yourself. Let the snake do the aiming. The ones that like to coil and raise their head off the ground (like rattlesnakes) are quite good at guiding shots right between their eyes. They like to look straight on at a threat. Wave the barrel around a little while pointing it towards the snake, so it interprets the muzzle as a threat. Once the snake locks onto the barrel, all's you have to do it pull the trigger.

+1 on the 12 gauge and the .38 revolver, for all the reasons stated above and one other consideration in favor of the revolver: reliability and low maintenance. A semi-auto handgun relies on various springs etc. to feed. Dirt, time, just laying around unused might cause a failure to feed just when you need it most. You don't have that problem with a revolver, which will sit happily in a drawer and fire when you need it most: everything is strictly mechanical.

I guess it would depend on the ammo you are able to get and put away for future use. You said ammo was severally limited; a gun is nothing more then an expensive club without ammo. For survival use I would want a good supply of ammo put away. If you are restricted in the amount you can buy, I would but up to that limit every time you were allowed to buy it. When you go out to target shoot, don’t shoot it all up, save 10 rounds from every box of 50 and put them away for future use.


Is there a limit to how much you can have on hand? And if so, are you comfortable with storing more then that limit for survival needs?

As far as choices of calibers, 12 gauge and a 22 lr rifle are a good choice. These 2 will pretty much handle all your needs. Handguns are nice if you are allowed to also have one of them, but the 12 gauge can fill in, in the middle of the night just as well as a handgun. It’s much more powerful, and more intimidating then even the biggest handgun. Just looking at the business end of a 12 gauge can many times defuse a bad situation. And everyone on the planet knows the sound of a shotgun action being racked. It gets attention like no other sound.

I know many will disagree with me, but a 10-shot 22 pistol is (Ruger, 6 inch or longer barrel) enough to stop a person if you shoot well, nobody has a bulletproof face. If you shoot them 10 times they are going to loose interest in you.

Also it is nice to have a rifle and handgun that use the same ammo. It makes buying, storing and carrying logistics a lot easier. Also a 22 is not intimidating to woman, they can handle a 22 without being afraid of it. A gun your wife is afraid to pickup is next to useless.

My x-wife (we were married at the time) loved shooting the 22 lr’s and the 32 Mags pistols & revolvers. She hated the 38-357 Mag, 45 ACP, 9mm and she definitely did not like any of the rifle calibers I shot in the contender (a single shot handgun) I think the single shot contender makes an excellent survival gun, but many seem to think you need a fast shooting gun. I like a single shot and feel very confident with it. A 45-70 or 357 Max bullet coming out the barrel will do in anything I’m ever going to see.


If you feel you must have a larger caliber handgun, of the choices you listed. Go with the 38 spl. Don’t bother with the 32 or 380 ACP pistol rounds. They will not give you much more then a 22 rifle or 6-inch pistol for stopping power and ammo cost many times more.

If you are not restricted in your gun purchases, it opens up your choices and you can end up with 1 or 2 (or 4 or 5) of everything you want, this was my chosen method.

Revolvers are not more reliable then semi autos, this is a myth. Every army in the world used semi autos, they are in the killing business, if semi autos were not reliable, they would not use them. Also a revolver is an open gun it can become clogged with debris causing the cylinder to stop indexing to the next round.

The working / moving parts are open to outside influence. If not cocked, a person can grab a revolver that you are pointing at them tightly and keep you from firing as the cylinder is open and needs to turn to fire.


I use to work at a gun shop years ago, my friend still owns his own shop and we have tried this experiment many times (with unloaded guns) you point a revolver at a person, they grab it and hold on tight and twist the gun to point away from them. You can’t fire the gun while they are gripping the gun tightly.


PS It’s always a good idea (according to what I’ve read) keep a person 12-feet away from you when you are holding a gun on them, it’s close enough to not miss, and far enough to keep them from grabbing the gun and also they can’t cover that distance before you react to their movement(shoot them).

Ha. The best autoloader in the world can jam, the best magazine can gum up. Never had a revolver do that. Failed to fire with bad ammo, sure- pull the trigger again, can't say that about an auto, either.
For sheer, raw ability to take abuse, neglect, and bad ammo the only better choice is a break action.

And while people can talk about a cylinder grab, it is like talking about someone with serious martial arts skills forcing the slide of an autoloader out of battery or possibly even disassembling it- theoretical, but pretty much Hollywood. My revolvers have been carried on my side when I'm hip deep in mud- danger of a barrel rupture a few times, but nothing that would have prevented the cylinder from indexing.

That being said, I own several of both. Each has their niche.


For Fabio, my advice is going to be mixed:

The shotgun and the .22 are the easiest to get ammo for, and versatile. The shotgun is more skill intensive, and kicks harder. The .22 lacks power, but no recoil, and dirt cheap. That is why for the pistol, I'm going to recommend a good .22 auto or wheelgun. Pistols take training, and three or four hits to the upper chest with a .22 is a hell of a lot more effective that a double tap from anything that completely misses the target.

Or play this sound as a deterrant...

http://www.sounddogs.com/previews/2224/mp3/439569_SOUNDDOGS_SH.mp3

Fabio



I love questions like these.

I fire a lot of .38 special from my .357 and I can tell you it would be an excellent choice for a home defense revolver. Some points and info you may consider.
-.38 is a very versatile round and avail in a wide selection, from wad cutters to JHP

- easy to find and cheap(where I live at least)

-plenty of power to stop an attacker, I would suggest anything in 125 gr for this purpose.

-a revolver, like IR said, is a very rugged weapon and very easy to use and maintain. If you buy a revolver I would suggest a few speed loaders and at least 12 dummy rounds. Then practice your loading/ unloading drills until they become second nature. Practice to load quickly in the dark or blindfolded. This is VERY important when selecting a revolver. The last thing you want when something happens is to be fumbling with trying to put rounds in the chambers.

- The advantage of any auto is the speed of loading/reloading. the higher magazine capacity, and the rate of fire. I can’t foresee many home defense scenarios where you will need to be firing that many rounds, so a revolver is more than enough most times. With practice with and without speed loaders you can easily get a complete unload/reload done in under 5 seconds.

-the advantage of the revolver is that it is very unlikely to jam and if you get a dud round you just pull the trigger to rotate the cylinder to the next one. In a gunfight, the last thing on earth you want is a jam, especially if you have only one gun. The next most terrible thing is running out of ammo. This is the disadvantage of the revolver. In a HD scenario, you should hopefully not need to reload but if you do its best you are quick. Revolvers take practice to do this quickly.

-the .38 special rounds have very little recoil. It is very easy and forgiving to shoot and your wife will be able to fire it just as easy. The heavier grained rounds will recoil more. Any round with a +p or a +p+ stamped into the bottom is a hotter round. These can kick a good deal harder and some are close to the performance of the .357 rounds. Do not shoot these hot .38s out of an older revolver and note that hot rounds will burn out your barrel very fast.

ABOVE ALL ELSE, when it comes to home defense guns or ammo remember that SHOT PLACEMENT is the single most important thing IMHO. people can argue all day long about expansion, stopping power, terminal ballistics and the like but If you miss the tgt or if you don’t hit the tgt in the proper place it won’t be of much good to you so practice every chance you can get.

On that same note, a 12 ga is one of the best home defense guns available, bar none. The big advantage is the wide variety and selection of ammo available (from shot, slugs, or some of the more exotic ammo like terminator rounds or flechettes) and of course, its massive stopping power at short range. A pump is far superior in reliability to most semi-autos, and some such as the Mossberg 590 will hold up to 9 rounds.

- for home defense, stick to the 2 3/4 inch rounds and if you cannot reload your own then buy some reduced recoil rounds. This gives you more ability to bring the muzzle back on tgt for follow up shots. a reduced recoil #4 or 00 buck will be more than enough to stop any threat dead in its tracks if you are on tgt, Literally

-to prevent the threat of over penetration inside your home, stick to #4 buckshot as the smaller pellets easily smash through flesh but not walls. A shot of double buck (8 pellet) will be like getting hit with 8 .32 cal pistol rounds all at once. These tend to go through people and walls, and are better used outside or where there is no danger of hitting anything unintended beyond your tgt. a center of mass hit on any intruder will most likely end your problem very fast.

-avoid magnum rounds for home defense. They simply have more pellets than the non-magnums but recoil much harder. If you can’t keep on tgt there is little advantage to more pellets.

-unlike the movies, a good hold and aim is still required of a scattergun. at 10-15 feet, which is a reasonable long shot in the home, the pellet spread may still be the size of your fist or smaller. IMHO I would avoid the "from the hip technique" and stick to a gun with a good solid shoulder stock. Shot placement is paramount, even using a shotgun. The advantage of a hard stock, besides the better aiming ability is that if someone gets the jump on you a good butt stroke to the throat will be a good way to keep the close quarter fight in your favor.

Man. I can go on all day but I will sum it up there. No matter what you choose, practice makes perfect. I vouch for the .38 and the 12 ga out of what you listed, but any firearm in the hands of a skilled individual can be a very effective tool indeed. With good drills and shot placement, even the tiny .22 will stop a very determined attacker.

This is my home defense revolver. I use it in conjunction with my .45 APC Para ordinance semi-auto, and my Mossberg 590 in 12 gauge. My HD rounds of choice for the .38 special are 125 grain Hornady XTP JHP. The little bag holds 9 pellets of 00 buck as a comparison to the size of the .38 special 125 gr bullets.

[img][IMG]http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/taurus-135/revolver.jpg[/img][/img]

Forget the pump action shotgun. For your purposes a Double barreled shotgun would be better. Depending on the "Threat" either heavy ball in one chamber and birdshot in the other, or bird in both/heavy ball in both. As required.

One point of clarification please: Is that two guns per household or two per person?

You need to practice with whatever you buy. You say ammo is hard to come by. Have you considered buying an additional airgun for practice? I don't know if your laws consider these "firearms" and thus regulate them.

Buy yourself an inexpensive Crosman 1377 or 2240 air pistol to practice trigger control, marksmanship, etc. For practicing marksmanship, an "airgun" would be better than an "air soft gun". Airsoft are lower velocity and power and use different ammo and are not very accurate. I consider them more as toys - but fun toys! In the U.S you can buy a new 1377 (pump action) for $49 and a 2240 (CO2 cartridge) for only a few dollars more than the 1377. The 1377 will be far cheaper in the long run since you don't have to buy CO2 cartridges for it. You may want to do a trigger job on these guns, but that only takes you an hour or two and about $4 worth of parts from a hardware store. Very easy, and a vast improvement. You can buy airgun ammo at about $8 for 500 great quality pellets, $4 for 500 decent quality, or $2.50 for 500 lower end pellets. Unless you're into high accuracy and target shooting, you can use the cheaper pellets for practicing sight picture, trigger control, etc. A decent quality air rifle (as opposed to air pistol) would run you in the neighborhood of $100 - $150 if you shop around.

Using reloaded ammo for home defense is a risky thing to do.

I have a fellow shooting enthusiast that is also a judge for the local city. His advice to all his fellow shooting friends is to use factory ammo in any gun you have for home protection. The reason is that a defense lawyer could easily make it look like you were manufacturing your own powerful ammo because you wanted to kill someone. He could make it look like you were looking for an opportunity to shoot someone. Better to have factory ammo to eliminate this attack on you and your shooting of the slime ball that broke into your home and harm your family.


He also said to make sure that if you shoot anyone, make sure you kill him. This way there is only one story to be told, yours. The slime ball can confuse the facts with his lies if he’s not around.

I guess I better not grab the shells that are filled with M&Ms and finishing nails by accident then.

your statement is true to a degree I think. I imagine that any hand loaded EXOTIC ammo would be hard to argue if you waste a guy with it.(flechettes, dimes, rock salt, marbles)etc. Buckshot is buckshot though, and I hunt with it all the time. I could also argue that the pistol rounds are reduced recoil so my kid can learn to shoot. And my buckshot rounds were reduced recoil for hunting. If it all comes down to it, It depends on who has the better lawyer. I hope I never need to find out.

In the meantime, I will hide all my 3 1/2 mag rounds filled with sharpened American dimes marked "anti-morale cartridges" and hope no one finds them.

"... if you shoot anyone, make sure you kill him..."

Just make sure that he/she is dead before the body hits the ground. Shooting downward into a live person is considered a no-no by the courts...

The "double tap" method of training is the preferred method of insuring that you will use the same method when it matters.

Unless they are down and still keep coming.

*shudders* Freakin' zombies.

Ever see a deer with an arrow through it and stuck to the bed of the pickup truck?

At my friends gun shop he also checks in deer’s during deer season. This guy shot a deer a few days before season (with a gun) and let it lay in the snow for a day and then took it in to get checked in, it was bow-season, so he loads the deer in the truck and then stands over it and puts an arrow into it, well it went through the deer and into the bed of the truck. We found out because we flipped the deer around to put a tag on the antlers and it would not move.

Don’t know the outcome for the guy, but the gun shop owner let the guy go called and it in to DNR.

Once he drove off, we had a good laugh over it.

Heh - Leigh, he lives in the Americas (South) - we are ALLOWED to be barbaric... anyway, a GREAT pump costs less than an average double.

Although it is stressful to consider 2 only (3 would be nice...), I echo the 12 gauge for long gun and a revolver in 38 Spl, 22 lr, or 32 (Unless 327 Federal or 32 H&R, I would not be keen on the 32). If it's difficult to get 38 Special ammunition, go with the 22 and try to freshen your ammo stock up every year or so if you can.

Revolvers function with any ammunition that chambers - from very light target loads to as heavy as the supplier provides. It is pretty much a part-swapping operation to be able to do that with almost all semi automatics.

Note to fellow gun gnuts - I have and use and like pistols of all sorts - SA & DA revolvers and SA semi-automatic... I have and use a DA semi - like it just fine if I shoot it SA. Personal preference. Anyway, I'm thinking about what HE can best use, not what I like.

Regards,

Tom

I like single action semi autos, and single shot hunting pistols.

I agree that there is more to learn with a semi auto then a revolver. But it comes down to what you like and feel comfortable with.

Fabio if you have friends that own guns, it would be a good idea to see if you can go out and shoot to see what type of gun you like and think will work for you.

Thanks for all sugestions and coments!

I spent yesterday afternoon in the range (introdutory pistol shooting course), shoting with a .380 pistol. It was much more dificult to shoot acurately at 15 yards than I thougth, but I think I did well in close range. I realy enjoyed the multiple target and magazine changing drills.

But I think I'm going to stay with the shotgun and revolver combination, due to simplicity and versatility with ammunition.

The limitations to firearms aquisition in Brazil is "per person", but it will be very hard to convince my wife to by any firearm.

There is a way around the limitations if I ask for a special permit (lots of paperwork and expensive) as a hunter or sport shooter, but I don't have the intention to seek that permit, at least for now.

Best regards,

Fabio

Thanks for all sugestions and coments!

I spent yesterday afternoon in the range (introdutory pistol shooting course), shoting with a .380 pistol. It was much more dificult to shoot acurately at 15 yards than I thougth, but I think I did well in close range. I realy enjoyed the multiple target and magazine changing drills.

But I think I'm going to stay with the shotgun and revolver combination, due to simplicity and versatility with ammunition.

The limitations to firearms aquisition in Brazil is "per person", but it will be very hard to convince my wife to by any firearm.

There is a way around the limitations if I ask for a special permit (lots of paperwork and expensive) as a hunter or sport shooter, but I don't have the intention to seek that permit, at least for now.

Best regards,

Fabio

Fabio,
Which shotgun and revolver will you be getting? Just curious...

Hi,

I do now know what the use of force laws are like in Brazil.

Here it Canada a person is held criminally responsible for all excessive force used in any situation. During recent training I was informed of an occurrence in 1999 where an RCMP Officer "double tapped" a violent, impaired suspect at a police station during a struggle for the officers pistol. The officer was later convicted of excessive force (manslaughter with a firearm) in his 3rd trial (after 2 hung juries). It was decided that the first round was justified and had removed the threat but that the quick, lethal second shot (within 2 seconds of the first) was excessive. The question for the jury became, who had control of the pistol when the second shot was fired? A brief discription of this case can be found here http://www.rbta.net/ferguson.html . This case later went to the Supreme Court of Canada concerning the sentence imposed by the lower court.

I am not making any judgement in this case, only saying that you will be held responsible to justify all force you apply, including every round you fire in a defensive situation.

Mike

That is sad that a police officer can’t defend himself and others without fear of being convicted and going to jail. The laws seem to favor a criminal so much that it makes one wonder why a person would want to be a cop any more.


Fabio any gun will work for defense, some choices may be better then others, but there is no wrong choice. It also has a lot to do with what you feel comfortable with.

Whatever the choice, try to get out and practice as much as you can. This is more important then the actual choice of what gun you like.

I would like to make two suggestions to increase the versatility of your allowed two guns:

1. A single shot shotgun/rifle like made by New England Firearms/H&R or Rossi can be had as combination guns or additional barrels of different calibers may be able to be purchased. Since the frame part is usually considered "the gun", you might be able to have a single, very versatile gun with multiple barrels this way.

2. You might also look at the various adapter things made by a company called MCA Sports. http://www.mcace.com/ They would also allow you to get multiple use from a single gun.

The MCA sports adaptors work well, not for rapid fire, but you will have a very useful gun with them.


These inserts are great for survival. It will allow you to shoot all kinds of calibers in shotguns and rifles. They are very well suited for hinge shotguns.


Prices are not too high, a good value for what you get.

Fabio, if I may chime in with my two cents......I would consider, if it were me, of going with either
A) .38 special revolver and .38 special rifle
Or....
B) .38 special revolver and 12 gauge pump shotgun.
Either way I believe the .38 in a 4" to 6" barrel wil offer the maximum stopping power with the minimal recoil and maintenance. You or your wife should be able to handle anything shy of hot +p+ with little felt recoil (assuming you can even find +p+ ammo or that your gun is safe to fire it)
The rifle will give you the advantage of little felt recoil, longer range and accuracy than the pistol and be a resonably reliable round for stopping man and beast. Disadvantage to snake killing unless you can find .38 special snake shot, which I have seen here in the us.
12 ga. Shotgun is good against ANY kind of critter, 2 legged or 4 although you or your wife may have a harder time with recoil. Get familiar with the different sized ammo (slug, 000, 00, bird shot etc...) By chooseing your ammo wisely you can set up for differnt threats at different ranges as well as have a fine weapon for hunting.
That narrows it down a little, hopefully you can convince the lovely wife to purchase a firearm of her own, 12 ga shotgun and rifle/handgun in .38 special would be optimal IMHO
Best of luck, I hope this helps a little.

-Bill Liptak

There's a reason why one of the preferred weapons for anti-boarding operations aboard ship is still a good old pump 12 gauge shotgun.

There's a lot to be said for the effect on the rest of the assailants when they see one of their own get folded in half at the waist, picked up and tossed out the door like he had a rope tied to him and the other end tied to a runaway bull with a hot shot stuck on his rump.

Downright demoralizing.

A double is okay, but then you lose the effect racking the slide on the pump gun has on an intruder in the dark. Almost as good as the sound a big blade going "swoosh" through the air, and not knowing quite from which direction the sound came.

Yes, I likes to play with my food before I eats it...sometimes.

Do you really think a .380 has more "stopping power" than a .38 Spl? Really?

I am, amongst other thing's, a trained Soldier. I have been trained to shoot fast & accurately. To count my rounds as I fire them and to know when to reload. I was carefully trained to treat the threat in front of me as a target, not as a person. To shoot, kill, and then switch targets. I have serious reservations about the ability of ordinary people with limited training to fire, re-cock and fire a pump action under stress at one or more targets. I think that they will fire one shot and then succeed in jamming the gun. Unless they practice, practice, practice. Which may not be an option with ammo controls.

To understand the laws Fabio is dealing with, read the summary at http://www.afn.org/~afn18566/brazil.html.

Another article from the NRA: Why you should care about Brazil

Tough laws if you intend to stay legal. Read the part on the black market.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of practice. Learn to reload at the club and shoot a lot of Skeet doubles and shotgun combat courses if available. Assuming you go with a pump shotgun, train such that you always pump the shotgun following a shot so that it is a natural movement and you don't need to think about it.

Buy ammo when you can, there will come a time when you can't.

Hello Russ,

I have only two choices for a shotgun, CBC (http://www.cbc.com.br)or Boito (www.eramantino.com.br). I have to choose one of them.

For the revolver,I think I'm going to buy a Taurus (need to choose a model) with 4" barrel and a cilider for 6, 7 or 8 cartridges.

Fabio

I would go with a 6 inch barrel; longer burn time on the powder will give you more power. It’s also a bit heaver so it will not kick as bad. And if you ever decide to sell it, 6 inch barrel guns sell for more then 4 inch ones.

Also they don’t make 7 or 8 shot 38 cal cylinders, only 6 shot and smaller.

The burn time of powder has nothing at all to do with the length of the barrel of the gun, but rather the amount and type of powder in the case.(ball, flake, etc) Ideally, the "all burnt" point of the propellant is achieved prior to the bullet exiting the muzzle. In short barreled weapons, any unburnt powder still remaining after the bullet exits results in excessive muzzle flash. A 6 inch barrel offers greater accuracy due to the extra rifling inside, causing more spin to the projectile. If recoil is a concern (it shouldn't be with anything under a .357) consider getting the barrel ported.

The Colt Mustang Plus II (a 380 with an extended grip and extended magazine) holds seven rounds. A standard Colt Mustang only holds six. I don't know about other brands. Are there 380's with double stacked magazines like you see on many 9mm guns, or possibly larger 380's that hold more rounds? I always associated 380's with "small in size". Easy to carry, but limited in both firepower and stopping power.

<whoooosh> goes the fire extinguisher <grin>

See, that's why this thread is getting so long - it's about firearms.

I will agree to disagree with you for this situation. I own single and double barrel shotguns, pump shotguns, and self-loading shotguns, for whatever that is worth.

I honestly do not recall ever seeing a pump gun jam, though it surely must be possible and no doubt someone here has had such an experience. Perhaps more likely with a cheapo that uses a single action bar? Mechanical things can fail. I have a side-by-side that has to be fixed once in a while - when it fires both barrels at once. Seen that happen with 4 other double barrels over the years - two elderly US side-by-sides, one expensive Japanese stack barrel, and one really nice Berreta stack barrel.

Anyway, it appears he may choose either, as both CBC and Boito make pumps and at least Boito makes a double barrel.

Actually, I own one of those doubles (Boito), re-branded for US market. I have some opinions about it, but it's one of only two I have ever seen or fired, and I've put only 2+ cases of ammo thru it (one case of factory ammo and the rest reloads) so my sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions.

<salute> from one soldier to another.

Tom

US Army (Retired), amongst other things.

Actually, Taurus does make at least one 38 Spl model with a 7 round cylinder, although it's a 2" snubbie. That was just a quick glance; there may be others (I skipped over the 357 guns)

In the FWIW/useless facts category: Semi-auto barrel length is measured from the breech face to the muzzle - it includes the chamber. Revolver barrel length is from forcing cone to muzzle - does not include the chamber. Even allowing for the barrel-cylinder gap (which is not really as big a gas loser as some seem to think), in a 38 spl class revolver, add about an inch to the barrel length to compare to a similar semi for effective barrel length and about 1 1/2 inches to the barrel length for effective sight radius.

In any event, the 4" - 6" revolver barrel length range is very useful and not any practical difference in velocity, so... whatever trips his trigger (or yours) - that range works well.

Regards,

Tom

+1 on the .38 revolver/12 ga pump bandwagon.

The only meaningful thing I can hope to add (so far everyone's advice has been excellent) is that addition to the racking of the slide, the barrel of a 12 ga is pretty intimidating in and of itself.

Also, realize that a gun is useless if you don't know how to use it (train with your tool), is useless if it isn't handy (make it accessible to you), and deadly to YOU if you don't secure it properly (take proper precautions to secure your weapons so if you walk in on a burglary in progress the criminals aren't armed with YOUR weapons).

My knee-jerk was to disagree with your statement, but... turns out that it depends. Considering that both are the same diameter for all practical purposes:

Most 380 ammo runs around 200 ft-lbs me, with the hottest stuff around 220 ft-lbs me.

38 Special ammo is available (in the USA, NA) in a huge array of loads ranging from 130 ft-lbs to over 380 ft-lbs. The rough average, at a glance, is around 250 ft-lbs -- the old standard police loads (158gr LRN) mostly run a bit over that - say 280 ft-lbs, IIRC.

Math is left as an exercise to the reader, but in general a 7+1 shot 380 adds up to more or less the same as 6 shot 38. I can stack the deck in favor of the 38 by using the "good" stuff, but it's not all that much.

Depends on what ammo he can readily get. I would greatly prefer standard or better 38 over FMJ 380, but I am guessing based on experiences with other calibers.

I have nothing against 380. Many years ago, gave DW a Llama 380 (like a Colt clone). It shot great and never had any problem with it. Except... she didn't like it for several reasons, even though she shot it well. She picked out the replacement and has been very happy with it. A lightweight 4" 44 Spl 5 shot revolver with adjustable sights. I find it nasty to shoot with defensive loads, but she likes it, is good with it, and that makes it pretty effective in my book.

Wish I had kept that 380. Even though I can get a 9mm x 19 in that size package nowadays.

Regards,

Tom

One other thing to consider in the revolver vs. semi-auto debate. I think many, if not most, people agree that handguns should be loaded with hollowpoints to be effective. Roundnose is not a good choice for defensive purposes, with the possible (debatable) exception of the larger calibers (45ACP, 44Special, 44Magnum). Revolvers don't really care what kind of ammo you feed them, but semi-autos can be quite sensitive to non-roundnose ammo. You need to do a bunch of shooting with your specific semi-auto and hollowpoint ammo choice to make sure the combination feeds reliably. A gunsmith can improve feed reliability, but it's still something you need to be aware of in semi-autos with hollowpoints.

Last weekend :p

For those who need a reliable hollow point for stopping power, but need a round nose bullet for feeding reliability go for powerball ammo.....it is essentially a hollow point bullet with a plastic ball in the cavity giving it a smooth, roundnose profile. FWIW me and all of my friends, yes all of us, have also had ZERO feed issues using remmington golden sabres. It also is one of the premium hollow points with excellent "stopping" power and good reliable expansion. Fabio, you may have problems getting good hollow point ammo over there seeing as how ammo is a concern. I would humbly suggest getting a bullet with a soft lead nose, they mushroom better than full metal jacketed ammo resulting in better "stopping" power.

-Bill Liptak

Taurus does make a 6" 8 shot revolver which is probably available in Brazil as a .38 Spl rather than .357 Mag.
MODEL 608 .357 MAG. REVOLVER


Since you only get one, make sure you can shoot it well before making your choice. I love shooting S&W N-frame guns in .38 Spl.

S&W makes the Model 627 which is also and 8 shot revolver.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with either of those shotguns. Are you able to swap barrels so that you can have a long barrel for Trap and Skeet and a short barrel for use at home?

I have three Remington 870 shotguns (pump action), one for home with a 20" barrel, a second for Trap with a 30" barrel and then Skeet by putting on a 26" barrel. The different barrel lengths change the way the shotgun swings and points. Long barrels don't do well inside with walls interfering with carrying the shotgun ready. Short barrels don't work well shooting clay birds. Being able to easily change barrel lengths is a very nice thing when you can only own one shotgun.

I noticed a lot of those shotguns come in pistol grip only format. I recommend a full stock, it makes for a much better platform. The full stock is not as compact, but it's much easier to point and shoot.

Don't .357 Mag revolvers also chamber .38 spl? Or is that only some that are actually made to do that? That would give you the freedom to shoot either (as well as a lower cost round to practice with).

Yes, but I think the issue is that Brazil's laws do not allow anything more powerful than a 38. Chances are it's not allowable to buy a 357 on the promise that you'll only load it with 38's.

In Brazil he is limited to .38 Spl by law.

OK, missed that.

"...ever seeing a pump gun jam..."

I have seen a lot of Rem 870's jammed by short stroking, usually officers of smaller stature when firing 00buck rapidly. It is an easy jam to clear tho...

I bet you have seen that at the CHP ranges - lots of troopers over the years, eh?

I've seen some folks short-stroke a pump gun <click>, but not jam it. Newbies on doubles after they miss a few and get excited/in a hurry for the second clay bird. Mind you, I'm not claiming they cannot be jammed; just that I have not seen it happen. IMHO it is easier to jam a non-plunger ejector bolt gun with a short or lazy stroke than a pump shotgun. But I digress...

I really don't have anything against a double barrel for Fabio to consider. But a GOOD double is expensive (and not an option for him). And those Boitos are heavy - at least the two samples I have used. I sure like how they point and swing and the barrels are regulated quite well in terms of the bead and each other. At the range, I like the fact that they have extractors rather than ejectors. Hunting or defense - I would prefer ejectors. Not that it has been an issue when I've taken mine hunting; just a preference.


If he gets a double, I suggest carefully checking headspace on both barrels (make SURE the rim counterbore is not too deep), check firing pin protrusion on both barrels (make SURE one is not too shallow), and learn how to fix it if it goes sour. Ask me how I know...

No idea of the design/build quality of the pump guns available to him. There are very good quality guns built there these days - Taurus, of course, and perhaps some of the Rossi line. It's possible that has rubbed off on Boito - again, no idea of the CBC.

In the end, it's up to him to choose something reliable that he likes. Even a single shot 12 gauge is very effective and practice with rapid reloading gets surprising results in the field (forget skeet doubles <grin>).

Best regards,

Tom

"...short-stroke a pump gun <click>, but not jam it..."

What happens is that a round trys to feed from the mag, but gets jammed under the partially closed block. The fired round is usually ejected just prior. To clear the jam, you depress the action bar release with the strong hand, grasp the forearm with the the weak hand, and strike the butt against the ground (or any hard surface) HARD. That will eject the jammed round out the bottom, you then push the forearm forward and you are good to go. It can sometimes damage the follower, so don't try this at home (unless it is a real emergency)...

Actually, they make some seven and eight round .38spl and .357 mags, and a nine shot 5mm (???) revolver...

Taurus eight shooter