You have an enlightened Attorney General, then. I was thinking specifically of a case in Texas where a storage facility owner boobytrapped his place with a 12-gauge shotgun because the druggies were breaking into it on a regular basis. The next kid that did so died instantly. The owner was charged with murder, acquitted after a jury trial, but then the kid's family sued him for wrongful death, and won! That's a case where a Less Than Lethal round would have saved the property owner a lot of grief.

Yes, but it probably wouldn't have deterred them either. They would have just carried off their unconcious friend and come back on the next night... remembering to duck when they opened the door!

Its a wonder he got off in criminal court (gotta love those Texans!)... The law seems to frown on booby traps of any kind. My dad used to tell me that "in the old days", they used to put up a false wall with a peep hole behind the counter in liquor stores. They would pay some guy to sit back there with a shotgun and if someone tried to rob the store, the guy in the back would just blow him away. The courts quickly made that practice illegal. I guess they didn't think it was very sporting for the criminal.

Funny! The crime rate seemed to be much lower back then... you know, before everybody started worrying about the "rights" of the criminals. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thats why I say shotguns are wonderful. They have the deterance factor. They can back the deterence factor up with power. They can hunt any game. And ammo isnt a big problem if one is prepared to carry it. They are easy to reload, and shells can be tailored to fit anyones needs. Remington has introduced a new sabot round that utilizes their Core-lokt bullets.

Hi all,



Am I in the wrong forum??? Is this a place for anybody
to discuss his / her personal fetishes??? You talk about
weapons as they are some kind of daisies... Ouch!!!!



What's next? A cruise missile in the garden to prevent the
neighbours's son stealing some apples????

Ok, maybe I'm nuts, but in the past I knew this forum to be a
place for everybody to discuss 'normal' and 'peaceful'
survival topics...<img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sir Vivor

OK, so you are not interested in discussing firearms as survival tools. That is certainly a point of view. You might find it a less than useful point of view in some scenarios. Depending upon your estimation of the likelyhood of ever having to face these scenarios your view of the need for firearms will be different. Let's run through some of these scenarios.

1) Dropped in the wilderness and need to collect food since you will not be getting out this week. Yes, you can use snares until they run out. Yes, you can eat nuts, berries and mushrooms until you poison yourself accidentally. Yes, the firearm will only help until the ammo runs out. Nonetheless, the firearm is moderately helpful here. Which you choose is a matter of quite interesting discussion after you accept the utility of the tool. Many think that the shotgun is a decent tool for gathering small game and large game with the same tool.

2) Large scale disaster (terrorist attack, severe storm, volcanic activity, tsunami, asteroid impact, anti-war protests) results in breakdown in the rule of law and you can no-longer depend upon the law enforcement individuals to protect you with their weapons. This might be due to damage to roads or to the general lawlessness of riots. In this situation a firearm is a tool that some would consider useful in protecting the preparations that they have from the appropriation of others. If you accept the utility of the tool then discussing whether the shotgun is better than the .45 handgun is appropriate.

3) Intruders from burglars to those with personal homicidal intent. These situations can not be met without some sort of defensive plan. Giving up you stuff may satisfy the common burglar but will do nothing to defend you from someone with true maliscious intent. The police will attempt to find and bring to justice the criminal after - AFTER - they commit the crime. This does nothing to prevent the crime other than engendering a general sense of danger to the profession of the criminal. Unfortunately criminals continue to exist in all societies in spite of this danger of being brought to justice. Again, if you accept the utility of a firearm in such a scenario the discussing whether a shotgun is better than a .45 handgun is appropriate.

These are not an issue of this policy of this site but rather more related to this statement on urban preparedness.

Sorry dude. Guess we got a little side tracked. I hope it wont happen again. Now then, on to mountain lion attacks and thier ravaging psycological and physical effects! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And anyway it is not uncommon for the shooter to make a special relationship with thier gun, some gun/outdoor writers refer to guns as wives and lawyers. Old 1700 British soldiers and I'm sure many others even spent time thinking up names for their guns, like betsy. Hey, if you sleep with it, at least know its name! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So does anybody know where I can get a "garden variety" cruise missile?

That would be cooooool, heh heh heh! <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It's a good close quarter firearm. Especially if you're using the right "shot" size. I'd go with at least "double-ought" or 00 shot size.

It's forgiving weapon, which means within 30 yards, you won't have to be right on the target. I've got rifles sighted beyond 100 yards, but if my family is involved... the last thing I want to do is find long range targets...especially having responsibilities to my family. My family will be priority... So I'll be hiding with an old 12 gauge double barrel with my wife and kids. At least it's very simple to operate and my wife can use and operate a double barrel without difficultly.

In reference to South Carolina, here's Kentucky's long standing opinion:

"It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to…he is not obligated to retreat, nor to consider whether he can safely retreat, but is entitled to stand his ground, and meet any (life-threatening) attack made upon him with a deadly weapon…." Kentucky Court of Appeals. Gibson v. Commonwealth, 34 SW 936 (Ky. 1931).

If I would carry a shotgun into the wilderness it would be a rifle/shotgun combo.You will have two weapons in one.