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#128424 - 03/26/08 05:54 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: kilgor]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
I was curious what the ratio of these two chemicals should be to achieve complete combustion but couldn't find anything online, so I just ran the stoichiometry calculations and came up with the following:

Potassium Permanganate____KMnO4_______158.04 g/mol____2.70g/cm^3
Glycerin__________________C3H5(OH)3_____92.09 g/mol____1.26g/cm^3

Balanced chemical equation:

14KMnO4 + 4C3H5(OH)3 --> 7K2CO3 + 7Mn2O3 + 5CO2 + 16H2O

Reactants:

20.0g_____________KMnO4
3.33g_____________C3H5(OH)3

Products:

8.75g_____________K2CO3
9.99g_____________Mn2O3
1.99g_____________CO2
2.61g_____________H2O

Conversions:

1 cm^3 = 1 mL = 0.034 fl oz____________1 oz = 28.35g

Therefore:

20g KMnO4________=______0.705 oz______=______0.25 fl oz
3.33g C3H5(OH)3___=______0.117 oz______=______0.09 fl oz

Based on this ratio I will probably carry a 1 fl oz bottle of potassium permanganate along with a 1/2 fl oz bottle of glycerine (I have plenty of both of these sizes on hand) and know that I could start four fires with this quantity.

Perhaps one of the resident chemists or chemical engineers can double check my numbers when they have a few moments.

Jim
_________________________
My EDC and FAK


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#128450 - 03/26/08 09:08 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: kilgor]
JAMAR Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
I found this glycerin at Walgreens for about $6.00
I will go to my local pool supply and see what they have for the potassium later.
_________________________
Cub scout, Boy Scout, Explorer and 7 yr Army Vet.

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#128455 - 03/26/08 09:24 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: Paragon]
JAMAR Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Here is a video to give you an idea of the ratio.
Obviously if you put this on top of some tinder, you will be happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVt89BtiC0s


Edited by JAMAR (03/26/08 09:34 PM)
_________________________
Cub scout, Boy Scout, Explorer and 7 yr Army Vet.

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#128462 - 03/26/08 11:38 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: Glocker36]
leemann Offline
Soylent Green
Addict

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 623
Loc: At the soylent green plant.
Originally Posted By: Glocker36
If you have a Sears Hardware store locally you can buy 8 oz bottles . They are with the water sterilization supplies. As far as glycerin, pretty much any drug store such as walgreens has them. You can also use radiator fluid which has worked better for me.


I wonder where in sears you'll find it looked today but did'nt find it. Will look again tomorrow.

Lee
_________________________
It's the year 2022...People are still the same
They'll do anything to get what they need.
And they need Soylent Green.
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#128472 - 03/27/08 12:58 AM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: JAMAR]
Troglodyte007
Unregistered


Is the waste product of the combustion safe? Or maybe a better question is; Would an environmentalist be OK with using this way of firestarting?

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#128478 - 03/27/08 02:00 AM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: ]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Troglodyte007
Is the waste product of the combustion safe? Or maybe a better question is; Would an environmentalist be OK with using this way of firestarting?

The majority of environmentalists that I've actually had the pleasure of meeting seemed sincerely upset that there are people living on Earth, so this would likely be seen as a major contributor to global warming and the recession of the polar ice caps.

As a side note, have you ever noticed that most feminine environmentalists use hyphenated last names?

The products of combustion shown above are K2CO3, Mn2O3, CO2, H2O (more commonly referred to as salt, carbon dioxide, and water) so this reaction is really no more destructive to the planet's ecosystem than lighting off a REI stormproof match or two.

Jim
_________________________
My EDC and FAK


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#128480 - 03/27/08 02:05 AM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Like there aren't fifty quicker, easier, cheaper ways to start a fire???

Sue

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#128485 - 03/27/08 03:23 AM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: Susan]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
LOL
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#128509 - 03/27/08 02:06 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: Susan]
JAMAR Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Originally Posted By: Susan
Like there aren't fifty quicker, easier, cheaper ways to start a fire???

Sue

For me it's about options and thinking outside the box.
_________________________
Cub scout, Boy Scout, Explorer and 7 yr Army Vet.

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#128525 - 03/27/08 03:33 PM Re: Potassium permanganate and glycerin [Re: Susan]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Susan
Like there aren't fifty quicker, easier, cheaper ways to start a fire???

50? Oh please...

Perhaps the abundance of self-proclaimed experts found on the internet (of course not to imply that you're claiming to be one Susan) has made me cynical, but forgive me for calling BS to that statement.

50?

If I honestly thought that you or anyone else could name even ten, let alone fifty methods that were quicker, easier, and cheaper ways to start a fire in a wilderness survival scenario, I would be truly humbled and impressed.

For sake of argument, assume for a moment that you were in a survival situation consisting of the following elements:

1). You find yourself alone in the wilderness 40 miles from home. Since you've actually never completed your ETS profile I have no idea where that would be, so for the purposes of this example let's assume that you are somewhere in the Pisgah National Forest of the Blue Ridge Mountains, SW of Asheville, NC.

2). Since you knew you would be secluded in the wilderness for several days and have learned much about preparation over the past four years as an active member of the ETS forum, you have a very well equipped BoB with you. Just to make things really easy let's also assume that regardless of the weight or bulk of the items that you have chosen to carry, your BoB actually contains anything and everything that you have ever carried with you into the wilderness at anytime in the past.

3). You are below the treeline, so tinder, kindling, and fuel is plentiful. Nature's bounty has provided you with an abundance of resources to start your fire. Unfortunately the paradox of wilderness fire building is that the most difficult time to build one is when you actually need one the most. Thus the elements have somewhat conspired against you in that the ground is covered with approximately four inches of snow and ice, the sky is densely overcast, darkness is fast approaching, the wind has picked up and begins to swirl from all directions through the canyons and foothills, and although there is no standing water, everything is damp from several previous days of rain.

4). You find yourself suffering from Stage 2 hypothermia and are slightly dehydrated since your potable water supply ran out yesterday morning. Without a fire to provide warmth and a means to melt snow, you face the realization that it is unlikely that you will survive through the night.

5). A freak accident earlier in the day has resulted in three broken fingers on your (weak side) hand. Between the pain and the bulk of the splints/bandages, you are limited to the use of your other (strong side) hand only.

With the exception of the broken fingers (and of course the magical BoB that contained anything and everything that I have ever carried into the wilderness) I have actually found myself in a very similar situation at 6,500 feet in the Sierra Nevada's. Thankfully my water supply had not run out the day before and I wasn't suffering from Stage 2 hypothermia, but I was cold and wet and knew that building a shelter and starting a fire was imperative.

For less than $10.00 you can purchase enough potassium permanganate (16 oz), glycerin (8 fl oz), and poly containers to start literally dozens of fires. For 20 cents worth of chemicals weighing less than an ounce (including the poly containers) you could very easily start a fire in less than half a minute, using damp tinder and kindling, one-handed, in the above described scenario.

Between these two non-toxic chemicals, they can be used for numerous other beneficial purposes including drinking water treatment and deodorization, as a disinfectant, to kill germs and prevent bacterial infections, as a gargle, medicinally to treat oral and sinus infections, dermatitis, canker sores, dry skin, chapped lips, athlete's foot, wound cleansing, and as an antidote for phosphorus poisoning. They can also be used to make soap, as a bleach, a solvent, a thickening agent, a laxative, or even as a food sweetener.

So please bring the tech, and outline for me the quicker/easier/cheaper methods of starting a fire in the above scenario for less than 20 cents, in less than 30 seconds, using only one hand. I'll even start the list:

1). Use a mini Bic lighter to ignite a handfull of dryer lint
2).
3).
4).
5).
6).
7).
8).
9).
10).

Jim
_________________________
My EDC and FAK


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