Hi, With the recent raising of the threat level to high and suggestions of creating a safe room and disaster kit , what preperations have you made for your family.
Please share tips and good ideas. Also how would you create a safe room and what would be in your kit?
Thanx [color:"green"] [/color]

This is the exact information passed on by my local CERT organizer.

Evacuation vs. Shelter-in-Place
Airborne hazardous materials spread quickly
Evacuation is not always the best way to stay safe
Staying inside can be a viable alternative
If not in immediate danger, listen to the Emergency Alert System (EAS) for directions

Shelter-In-Place
- Remain inside your home or office and protect yourself there
- Close and lock all windows and exterior doors; pull blinds/curtains to protect in the event of
shattering glass
- Turn off all fans, heating & air-conditioning systems
- Close the fireplace damper
- Get your disaster supplies kit; make sure the radio is working
- Using duct tape, seal all cracks around doors & any vents into room
- Keep listening to your radio or television until:
you are told all is safe
you are told to evacuate

Location
Choose an interior room with no windows, or as few as possible
Pick a room with a toilet, water, and phone (wireless and cell phone would work)
Large enough for family or co-workers

Sealing Your Environment
-Have a Shelter-in-place kit that has pre-cut, labeled plastic sheeting for windows, doors, and vents
-Have multiple rolls of duct tape in kit so that more than one person can work on sealing the room
-Use duct tape to seal bottom of the door before applying plastic
-Use duct tape and pre-cut plastic to seal ways for air to enter the sheltering room. Make sure that your duct tape overlaps the edge of the plastic that covers windows, doors, vent coverings, electrical outlets, fixtures, and pipes where air can enter the room

Other:
Have disaster supply kit ready - water, battery-powered radio, extra batteries, flashlight
Tune into the EAS station for further instructions
Have snacks and books to make the situation more comfortable

Shelter-in-Place Don'ts
Do not call school or try to pick up your children
Do not leave shelter until directed over Emergency Alert System
Do not risk your safety for pets

Evacuation
Lock Doors When Leaving
Take pets w/you
Use specified travel routes
Avoid downed power lines

I think it is good that the govt is finally suggesting that people begin to prepare for eventual problems. FEMA, the Red Cross, and other public informational channels are providing suggested supply lists and activities.

FEMA has a publicaition pub 320 for building a tornado safe room, but it will not provide protection from bio-chemical stuff. Good start towards WMD though.

I recommend you do more research about bio/chemical delivery systems. I would also spend some time thinking about how often your are in your home listing to news information. How long would it take you to secure a room in your house with plastic and duct tape? How long can you live, eat, cook, sleep, use the restroom in that space? Do you have supplies stocked in that room already? How long will it take for news agencies to determine a bio/chem attack and notifiy the public?

I am suggesting you determine what is involved in making a postive pressure room in your house. Things like how are you going to filter the air you are using to create the positive pressure. How long is the filter good for? How will you power your postive pressure delivery system? Will you take your pets in to the room with you? How will you decide when it is safe to exit the room?

My family is only awake and at my house about 5 hours a day. We are not awake another 8 hours so we are not montioring news. We live on the outskirts of a non-esssential city that is low probability target. There is a nuke plant about 40 miles away.

Based on my evaluations, I am going to ensure that my food storage program is current and will upgrade to a longer period of stored food. I have alternate cooking, heating, and lighting methods. My big concern is how am I going to continue to afford putting fuel in my gas guzzler when prices are going up a dime a week.

Here are some more links just sent by my CERT organizer.

Lots of stuff at the last two links.

http://www.redcross.org/services/disaster/beprepared/fdpall.pdf
http://www.redcross.org/disaster/safety/fdsk.pdf
http://www.weprevent.org/usa/cover.pdf
http://www.fema.gov/areyouready/

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute here, because frankly the current media panic frenzy is doing exactly what any terrorist could want. They cause mass hysteria in the US without having to do anything.

The whole idea that duct tape and plastic wrap are going to keep people safe is laughable. Let's try to look at this logically for a moment.

1. Regardless of what the media tells us, it is far more probable that any attacks against the US will be conventional, not a bio, chemical or rad weapon. Look at history. Heck, look at Israel. They have been subject to constant terror attacks in the past 3 decades, and most if not all have been conventional explosives or gunfire attacks. WMD require alot of specialized skills and setup and are expensive. With the exception of bio attacks you get relatively little bang for your buck. Although 9/11 was very impressive, it was not a WMD attack, nor was the previous attack on the WTC. The likelihood is that a terrorist attack will involve an explosive device of some kind, like a carbomb, etc.

2. In the event of a bio attack it is very likely that by the time it is discovered you will already be exposed if you were going to be. Once it has been discovered, duct tape and plastic wrap aren't going to help you much if at all. Then it is up to the public health system to contain the problem.

3. If it is a chemical attack it is most likely to be relatively small in scale and in an enclosed, well populated area for maximum effectiveness. Like the sarin attack in the Japanese subway. And even then the terrorists didn't manage to use it to it's maximum effectiveness. Chemical clouds tend to disperse rapidly when exposed to atmospheric conditions. If you are not in the initially affected area then you will likely not be affected. Duct tape and plastic wrap isn't going to help much in that instance either.

4. In the event of a radiological dispersion device, there is hardly any health hazard to begin with unless you are affected by the initial explosion. Such an attack is mainly used to scare people and cause large cleanup costs. Previous incidents with radioactive contamination have shown that the main problem is a terrified populous overwhelming health care facilities for absolutely no reason. If you are talking about an actual nuclear device and you are in the blast radius, then you can bet that that duct tape isn't going to do you much good. An actual nuclear device is probably the least likely of all WMD attacks (in case your placing bets).

So you see, attempting to make preparations for a WMD attack is not very practical except in very specific circumstance that most if not all of us will never have to deal with.

Now that is not to say that you shouldn't prepare for a regular emergency with regards to having food and water supplies, flashlights, blankets, and all the other stuff we normally talk about here. Those are useful tools for many different kinds of emergencies, including the theoretical WMD attack. But buying lots of duct tape and creating positive presure rooms in your home with air filtration and radiation meters is pretty rediculous.

If by some poor chance you happen to be the victim of a WMD attack, as in near ground zero, then your preparations aren't going to help you much anyway.

Although I wasn't around yet during the nuclear war histeria of the 50's and 60's, I would guess that our country's current reaction is fairly similar. Fear is a powerful motivator. All of us on this forum desire to be prepared for any circumstance we may encounter, but there are things for which preparation may be counterproductive.

Sorry if this got long, but the hysteria in this country is getting out of hand, no thanks to our leadership.

Greg

I agree with your sentiments, being a former member of the media. They LIVE for days like this. But I have to ask, what does WMD stand for?

WMD = Weapons of Mass Destruction

~Wesley

Well stated!!! Pete

Now wait a minute Greg. Please stand down for a second and understand that with above post you just brougth tears to my eyes. After all I was raised on watching McGuyver and I personally saw him stopiing nuclear leak with SAK and ductape... SO you telling me that his show wasn't for real? I knew something was fishy after I tried to replicate some of his inventions and they didn't work. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But thank you for ruining my childhood memories and sending me on the quest to look for another role model. Thanks a lot...

Matt

ps.
You made excelent points.

After I stopped laughing at the responses I wanted to say thank you and well said to Greg.

Let us all take a deep breath and let some the fear and tension out before we do something silly.

Craig J.

i couldnt said it any beter. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
for those who are interested http://fas.org/ has great artikels about the treat dirty bomb and other terrosrist wapon poses....

I don't claim any experience in biological or chemical preparedness. But I almost choked on my breakfast when I heard Charlie Gibson say that you could thwart a chemical weapon attack with a roll of duct tape and a plastic sheet (can you say duck and cover?). I'd like to make two proposals:

1) We change the definition of WMD to "Wild Monkey Dance" ‘cause that seems to be what we are doing.

2) We take the popularization of gloom and doom and turn it into something positive. If I choked when I heard the Charlie Gibson comment, I had a heart attack when my wife asked me about our 72 hour kit (I slid her a copy of "Aboman's guide to Survival and Self Reliance".). The sensationalization can turned into a teachable moment. I say we use it.
-Biscuits

Maggot,

I had wondered about your nom de plume. I can see you are now clearly a repentent sinner. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John

Greg,

I am inclined to agree with the tenor of your post, if for no reason other than my instinctive aversion to the media hysteria that you & Maggot cite, BUT:

A. No one can ever have too much duct tape. And, a little plastic sheeting can do a lot in the event of storm or rain damage anyway. So it is always useful.

B. Developing a safe room or other sanctuary is only prudent. We only need to consider the overall cost compared to the the risk entailed. One day's labor, & $30 worth of supplies, vs. a significant risk of death/disease all seem to weight the odds in favor of preparation.

C. Also compare such preparation as this as to what we consider regarding the possibility of surviving a an airplane crash. How much time to we devote our beloved PSKs, the subjects of infinite perfection?

Somehow, the minor costs of preparing for the possibility of the fairly effective delivery of a chemical weapon, or even the moderate costs to protect against the detonation of an actual nuke do not seem so great in comparison to the risk of grievous death or injury to your family.

Regards,

John

Agreed.

Last night on the news a reporter ask Chicago Police Supt. Hillard about duct tape and plastic sheeting in the event of an attack. He said "If we're attacked with Sarin or Anthrax and anybody thinks they're going to be protected by duct tape ..." He couldn't even finish. He shook his head in obvious disgust and walked away from the podium. Behind his right shoulder was Mayor Daley shacking his head and muttering "plastic sheeting." It was actually encouraging to see two top law enforcement officials in Chicago hold such pragmatic opinions and to not allow themselves to be caught up in the hystaria. After all, they will be the Chicago government's decision makers in the event of a true disaster or emergency.

Having actually studied the effect of various chemical, biological, and radiological threats as a member of a federal WMD response team, I would offer a few comments.

First off, I am in favor of a program that encourages people to prepare for contingencies like bad weather, power failure, etc. Preparations for self-sufficiency in such situations will have a positive effect WHEN there are further terrorist events. It is naive to believe that there will be no further attacks.
Chemical agents are not a meaningful threat to us in our homes. All nerve agents other than VX are liquids that simply evaporate and are gone. Their effect would be enchanced in a confined space, like a subway or a building. It is unlikely that a terrorist could deploy sufficient agent in the air over a city to pose a significant threat to the population. VX is the only persistent agent and would be a longer lasting problem if released.
Biological agents are worrisome, but those that are communicable, like smallpox, will turn around and bite hardest in underdeveloped third world paradises like where the terrorists come from.
Israel has not been bothered by WMD attacks. Simple explosives have worked well.
Draw your own conclusions.

Regarding the proposed use of plastic sheeting and duct tape to create a safe room, I invite you to review the following article:

Seems to be a current topic of interest. A report from Oak Ridge
National Labs.

"Will Duct Tape and Plastic Really Work?"
Issues Related To Expedient Shelter-In-Place
John H. Sorensen, Barbara M. Vogt
August 2001
http://emc.ornl.gov/EMC/PDF/TM_2001_154_duct_plastic.pdf

Best regards!

Here in S. Florida we have a little experience with hurricane preparedness and year around tornado threats that overlaps with the Chem-Bio-Nuke scenario. I agree with johnbaker that some plastic sheeting (prefer 3 mil) and HD duct tape is a good investment. We have a designated safe room complete with plastic sheeting, duct tape, scissors, first aid kit, water, canned goods, decks of cards, and games for the kids. We keep seven 5 gallon water bottles in the house for our water cooler rotation, refilled by a reverse osmosis system. I think the term "family preparedness" is the key here. Why not do a few things to calm the nerves for your family? After 9-11 saw a web-site with basic supplies kept on hand by Israeli families and pretty much got it all for under $100.00. Hope to never need any of it. Main thing learned from Hurricane Andrew is it can take several days or even weeks for the government to get in to help. Regards, Tom

I have to agree with what Beachdoc and others have said in reply to this post - it makes sense to be prepared, sure, but it is insanity to get so scared and wound up that you crap all over yourself every time a fire engine goes by. Then we all end up playing the so-called terrorist's game without them even having to do anything. Everyone needs to step back, take a deep breath and remember Doug's mantra of STOP.

Jeff,

Thanks a lot for your post. I especially appreciate your link to the Oak Ridge Lab report. Nothing like actual studies & hard facts to make an informed assessment.

John

Billy
I would suggest that the public officials that you mentioned are no better informed about this matter then you or other members of the forum.
I suggest that you look at this link, as these people actually HAVE an informed opinion after doing the research.

A report from Oak Ridge
National Labs.

"Will Duct Tape and Plastic Really Work?"
Issues Related To Expedient Shelter-In-Place
John H. Sorensen, Barbara M. Vogt
August 2001
http://emc.ornl.gov/EMC/PDF/TM_2001_154_duct_plastic.pdf

Jeff

Doc,

It's a good read - second time someone has posted that link in the last few days. Oak Ridge did other important R&D during the cold war that is also applicable to today. I've refrained from participating in the plastic-and-tape rock throwing so far because I already decided that it was ill-informed crap. Having previously been in charge of about 80 senior scientists and engineers, I know that people are people (strong opinions) about all sorts of things, but only real research (like the Oakridge folks did) yields useful information.

Someone recently suggested one of Dean Ing's books, "Pulling Through". Ing's book is fiction, sure, but setting any politics or PC stuff aside, it is mostly based on good science. But the other half of the book by Kearny and associates isn't even remotely fiction - it is solid, hard-earned, factual information. Most of that is 'N/A" to the present concerns; some of it is VERY applicable. I've read - have in my library - other "hard-science" publications from the Oakridge boys and similar outfits, and there is useful information in them as well, even though the focus is on other situations. (Yeah, I've made a couple of KFMs - years ago - and they WORK - far more accurate/useful than any readily available geiger counter, and that is truth that I personally verified with calibrated emmiters. Ing's fiction accurately depicts some of the "things to watch out for" when making/using a KFM... hmmmm... maybe other things in that fiction are things to consider as well, such as ventilation... food for thought...)

In Bill's defense - I've been up close to that Mayor in a crisis (not that he even noticed me at the time), and he is a tough, effective mayor when the chips are down. Sure, he and the Chief are politicians <shrug> I personally do not like his politics, but give him his due - he made some pretty good decisions in a past crisis and probably will in the future if circumstances call for it. Also... winter storms are a reality in the windy city, and the hot topic a few days ago was supposedly aimed at the East coast, not Chicago - I can sort of understand his sneer, even tho I disagree with his "dissing" the advice of the other agencies - thus tossing the baby out with the bath water.

In my opinion, Daly is the kind of mayor who would readily order the explosive demolition of buildings with people potentially in them to save many other people and buildings... very ruthless. I do not admire him, but he is not taken lightly. Too bad he didn't explain his disdain for the advice...

On a lighter matter - gee, the combination of poly sheeting and duct tape is soooo adaptable to so many uses, why would anyone NOT have it on hand? Sheesh, it's kind of fun to play around with! FWIW, I greatly prefer 4 mil poly for general use and 6 mil for rugged use. After that, it gets too darned expensive and even 6 mil is pretty heavy, weight-wise. And don't just get a roll of "clear" - the black has other uses, and the two together have many more. As for duct tape - caveat emptor. 3M stuff sets the standard. The discount stores carry a lot of crap duct tape. I have occassionally found Chinese-made duct tape at an incredible bargain price that is fully the equal of 3M in adhesion and coating, but it pays to examine the tape before buying. There are some other North American-made duct tapes that are the equal of 3M, but I don't recognize the brand names - it's possible that they are re-branded 3M, anyway.

Anyone else ever made a boat that safely carried three people across a large body of water with cardboard, limbs, visqueen, and duct tape? Like I said in a previous post, the MacGiver character would have a brain lock-up with the possibile uses of poly sheeting and duct tape, hehehe...

Regards,

Tom
"Minds are like parachutes... they both work best when open..."

What would be a good way to pressurize & filter the air in a safe room?

The Oak Ridge National Laboratory's study establishes that an expedient, sealed safe room provides substantial protection from an attack with nerve gas. Positively pressurizing the room increases the protection by insuring against leaks in the room. So the next issues are what can we use to pressurize the room; and what can we use to filter the air introduced into the room.

An electrical air pump appears indicated. AC power would be low maintenance, but by itself does not seem secure enough for me to trust my family's lives on it. A DC source, probably from battery seems essential.

A bathroom exhaust fan in, say, vent piping might provide an AC air pump. Some have recommended battery-powered air pumps such those made by Coleman to inflate air mattresses being attached to gas mask filters to provide pressurized, filtered air for a safe room. However I really wonder about the reliability of those pumps, especially for prolonged use. Gas mask filters are designed for a much lower volume of air than would be produced by a continuous flow from an electric pump. Also I believe that their reliable life is limited to a few hours even when they filter only the breathing of one person. A filter with a longer useful life and capable of filtering a larger volume of air seems necessary.

Hence the quest for a more reliable air pump and a higher capacity, longer-lived filter.

Does anyone have any good ideas?

Thanks,

John

Check the "Alpha Disaster Contingency" website. I can provide you with a URL after I get to the office. They discuss the creathion of a safe room with a powered filtration system. I am not convinced of the need for that.

Nerve agent is a mist. If deployed in the open, it will simply evaporate in time. Unfortunately, there is no meaningful alert or warning system that would tell us to take shelter in an emergency. Sheltering in a safe room would not be useful in protecting us against a biological attack. IMHO, if I lived in Israel or another middle eastern country, I would establish a positive pressure safe room. A scud attack would be a reason to shelter.

I can envision no similar situation in the US.

Regards

I believe in order to create a positive pressure room; one must obtain the air from somewhere (outside air, another room, etc.). If one is concerned about chem/bio agents, the incoming air to create a positive pressure room must also be addressed with the appropriate filtration of that incoming air. Pete

For limited times a positive pressure room may be created using compressed air that was stored prior to the threat. This is only workable for very small, very well sealed rooms as the amount of compressed air and the cost of storing it becomes unacceptable quickly. But if you happen to have a large pneumatic tool shop attached to your house you might be able to use that air to pressurize a well sealed closet for a day or so. Don't know the actual math to determine what size a tank would be need for what size of room with what rate of leakage, but I think that there are people on the forum who can guess at or know the correct math or links to such.

Heads up to those that consider using regular air compressors.

As a general rule, air compressors that are used for "shop air tools" and paint booths, tire filing etc. DO NOT HAVE BREATHING AIR FILTRATION installed. A big problem with this type of comperssed air is that oil from the compressor will be present in the output air...guess what happens when lungs inhale oil? Sounds like a way to develop breathing problems.

Not trying to rain on the parade here, just want to keep folks from turning blue. There are filtration systems that can be used, search WWGraingers, McMaster Carr and other similar types of industrial equipment suppliers.

Also note that most houses have many sources of air leaks in the rooms that are not immediately obvious, such as the electrical outlets, plumbing standpipes, cracks in the floor / walls / ceiling from the building settling as it ages....sadly the list goes on.

Pressurizing from a bathroom exhaust fan is also problematic due to the looseness of the fan housing construction, need for reliable power source, having to re-arrange the ducting for the fan as most are designed to exhaust a room, not pressurize it, and the fact that many household fans may are only capable of less generating than 100 cubic feet per minute of air volume, usually at very low pressures.

Compressed air tanks (scuba etc.) generally hold less than 200 cubic feet of compressed air, which as noted earlier becomes prohibitive in terms of $ and equipment.

Regards,
Comanche7

Try the following urls

http://www.americansaferoom.com/

and several of the links on this site

http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/basicnbc.htm

Interesting idea. It's not a bad concept, but there are some logistics to consider (it's not impossible to do this if one is "inventive").

As noted earlier, most home shop compressors use an oil-filled crankcase and even when they are new, there is oil in the compressed air... but let's assume that one has an oil-less home shop compressor (it just so happens that mine is oil-less, with a 60 gallon tank). While most home-shop compressors have a 20 gallon tank, let's assume that like me, you have a 60 gallon tank.

These figures are off the top of my head, so check my numbers: A US fluid gallon is defined as 231 cubic inches. So a 60 gallon tank is close enough to 8 cubic feet. My compressor, like most single stage home compressors, shuts off at 120 psi. Disregarding any post-compression cycle pressure drop from the gas temperature dropping (ideal case), no leak down, perfect gas, etc, and assuming we start at 14.7 psi, we would stuff a total of about 65.3 cubic feet of air in the tank. Assuming we're breathing it at very close to 14.7 psi, and assuming we tried very hard to suck all the air out with a regulator/respirator, we could get about 65.3 - 8 = 57.3 cubic feet of air out of that 60 gallon tank. (someone should check my math, but that sounds about right - one order of magnitude increase in pressure will give us one order of magnitude increase in mass given a constant volume and temperature) (Sorry; I'm too lazy right now to convert all this to SI units - ask if you need it converted and I will)

SCUBA guys, how long will that last at the surface (14.7 psi to keep the numbers consistent)? I can figure out a guess from 95th percentile respiration rate and volume, but you divers can prol tell us real quickly.

But note that I mentioned a respirator - you have to cycle all 57 cubic feet thru your lungs to get whatever duration (I'm guessing less than an hour). If you simply vent it into the closet, you will have to waste air - or your closet becomes a pressure tank. Also, there is the CO2 and transpired/respired H2O vapor problem...

We can make an improvised scrubber for the CO2 and we can deal with most of the H2O vapor in a similar fashion, so it's not impossible... also, we can easily make up a reliable (gravity is reliable) and accurate waste valve for the closet to keep a small positive pressure on (only a few inches of water column is plenty of positive pressure - 1/2 psi would probably be over kill and probably be hard on the average house construction). Forget the H2O vapor build up - let it get a little clammy in there (or icy, if it's sub freezing) for awhile - but breath thru a regulated respirator that wastes into the sealed closet and let the closet waste valve maintain the small over pressure.

Choosing my words carefully... the "commercial" systems rely on filtration and blowers and waste gates to provide fresh air (it requires a lot for circulated air - CO2, H2O, 3 days on pork and beans, etc...). Even a small room is onerous to handle with a manual blower, so power becomes required rather quickly. And... there are chemical weapons that destroy the filters - first attack, OK - second attack, best have changed filters...

I am very uncertain about bio agents and filters, but I assume that is primarily a particle size issue. Start with an off-the-shelf HEPA filter and go from there... and radioactive fallout *is* a particle size problem that is not very difficult to deal with over a moderate amount of time (days to weeks).

Pre-stored clean air is the surest method. Safely storing enough of it for ______ (you fill in the blank) and being able to effectively use it is probably not as simple as sucking on the end of an airline (the *blue* air hose in my house - blue for clean air and yellow for oiled air for air tools and yes, it's manifolded and valved up to be either-or with no back-siphonage of oiled air...).

Heck, it's an interesting proposition! But I'm not going any farther with it - risk management; I'm not dumping the effort into that. If I lived someplace with higher risks, sure, I'd compare it to other solutions - 120 psi is low and I can think of a number of inexpensive large volume storage methods.

Whew! And I was trying to be finished with thinking for the day... dang!

Regards,

Tom

Doc,

Interesting reading... I learned some things! Thanks for the links.

Regards,

Tom

As Beach Doc mentioned,

This guy seems to have his stuff together.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/saferoomswhatsworking.htm

http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/saferoomtest2-nov-02.htm

Mike

Jeff,

Thanks very much for the urls. I checked the websites. They look real promising.

Regards,

John