We have about 4 acres, densely wooded, with the exception of a 150' long, 55' Wide and about 4' deep pond, there's no clearings at all.

We can garden cold weather crops, however, things like tomatoes and corn and the like are simply not possible with all the shade.

I am ready, willing and able to drop trees to make some sunny space where I'll have direct sun from about 10AM to about 3PM, however, I'm unsure how long it will take to establish a decent growing area, or if I should just save money and buy 40 or 50 yards of topsoil soil and start there. Basically, I want to be growing in summer 2009 or 2010 at the latest, and I would like to get some advice on the idea. I can allocate about 1/2 an acre to a large garden.

Martin:
You can tell the authorties that you are cutting a fire break and makeing a stageing area for the fire season.

+1 on IzzyJG99's things to check.

Add to them checking to see if there are any "conservation" easements held by, for example, the county. The county has such an easement on my property, in exchange for letting the builder build here, and he had to replace the trees he cut down, on a 2 or 3 to one basis, somewhere else in the county. I can only cut down trees with the express written permission of the county.

Also, you have a pond, and could run into "wetlands" restrictions. A friend has a beautiful lot in rural PA he wants to put a cabin on, but can't because the "development" would disturb the "wetlands" (a stream).

You probably have checked on and/or are aware of these many many restrictions, but some members might be surprised at how many you can run into.

Wow! There must be a lot of tree-cutting restrictions back east. Out here in the west, it's clear-cut all the way.

If you can remove some trees on the south side of the house, you will also get some solar gain in winter for your home. I would go crazy if my house was buried in trees. Another type of claustrophobia, I guess. It might also be a viable argument for cutting the trees.

If you do have valuable trees, DO NOT attempt to mill them yourself. Trees of that type have more value as veneer wood, not lumber. Find a couple of people who deal in veneer wood and get them into a bidding war.

If you do have some trees cut down, find a local farmer with a large tractor and have him pull the stumps, as they won't rot fast enough for your purposes, no matter what you do.

Chemical gardening could well affect groundwater, but organic could be different.

Have your soil tested by a reliable ag lab. I would recommend Kinsey Agricultural Services. Kinsey literally wrote the book on agronomy: "Hands-On Agronomy" (2006, Acres U.S.A.). He also has an hour-long video with the same title, but of course it isn't as in-depth as the book. http://kinseyag.com/

I don't have any connection with him other than to soon be a customer of his lab services.

Sue

I agree with all said so far......

Hey Martin.....feel like you're in over your head yet?

Martin,

Go to the local college andsee if they have an Ag and/or Forestry program. Offer to have the students come and identify the trees, attempt to determine health, and make recommendations on "thinning".

I would get a hold of the Penn Dutch in the area and pick there brains. You may allow them access to the wood. When I was stationed at McGuire AFB a few years ago there were tons of Amish/Penn Dutch furniture makers around. That is of course depending on where you are in Bucks County.

As a side note: I was part of a theater company in Morrisville, PA right by the Calhoun Street bridge.

Excellent idea MoBOB....I didn't even think of an ag college program.....

Isn’t it nice that when you buy a house and property you still don’t really own it as Big Daddy tells you what you can and can not do with it?


If it is so that you are limited in what trees you can cut down. Start out with a small garden, even in and around the trees and each year you take out more trees up to the limit. Also you could trim the remaining trees to allow maximum sunlight.




PS the less you ask the local authorities for permission, the less they can say “NO!”

I use to live in a mobile home park, they had rules against outside antennas. I was an amateur radio operator and an amateur radio operator needs outside antennas.


Never once went to them to ask it a given antenna was OK as I knew they would turn me down. I would put them up as I needed (some in stealth of the night) and ended up with 7 outside antennas. Never had a problem. Stay under the radar and you can do more then you think.


Get a good electric chainsaw as they don’t make noise like a gas powered one, and they cut fine as I have 2 of them. Do all the work on a Sunday at one time per tree, clean up your mess, do it in moderation and I would guess it can be workable for you.

Perhaps start with a woodlot management plan? The trees are a significant resource, either for sale as pulp/lumber or as fuel, and take a long time to replace if cut in error. Looks like these folks do it in Bucks County: http://www.savatree.com/woodlot-management.html

State universities often offer cooperative extension programs for small farms, woodlots and pond management. I have used these services in NY state with good results. Penn State website seems promising: http://www.extension.psu.edu/

Then the only other thing you need is a Troy Bilt Rototiller (http://www.troybilt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_14102_91388_54971_-1), the cadillac of walk-behind tillers, capable of turning a parking lot into a petunia bed in 2 passes, the mainstay of every hippie dropout agricultural commune that popped up like mushrooms in the 60's. I used one for seevral years gardening in the Adirondack Mountains, and found it too be most effective. If you are starting with good Pennsylvania hardwood forest humus, you may have everything you need right there on your acreage. If not, cooperative extension will tell you what you need. If you decide to add livestock, goats are easier than cows, and pigs are just too smart for ease of management. Good Luck!

Wow.
OK, first of all...I am well aware of the limits of the tree-clearing - I'm allowed no more than 20, and there's no restricted species. The trees I'd be dropping are mostly Tulip Poplars, a horrid tree for lumber, firewood and just about everything else. They are weak, they drop sap, and they are frightfully tall and fast-growing. My pond is man-made, it was originally going to be the basement of the house, but they hit water, so they moved the house closer to the road. I don't need any special permits to create a garden, it's going to be too small.

As you can see from this picture I took of my house 2 winters ago, I have PLENTY of wooded land around me, and I'm taking advantage of the fact that the pond is already an open area just north of the proposed garden:


The purpose of this garden is to grow FOOD to EAT. I like a nice fresh green bean and we love to can tomatoes. My last garden was not so big, but was really productive. My "cooperative extension" is anything but "cooperative" being unavailable by phone when I can call and unresponsive to email. So, basically, I'm looking to learn what I can from others who might have done something like this.

I agree with Izzy, that's a nice looking peice of land. However, wouldn't it make sense to put the garden on the north side of the pond? It would get more sunlight that way, wouldn't it?

-Blast

That's a worthy project. Lots of good ideas already posted.

Blast makes an interesting point: the pond is already a cleared area, giving increased sunlight to the northern side. I'd go out regularly and mark the limits of sunlight early in the season.
Of course, the topography may not be suitable (if, say, it's a low area).

You could create a micro-climate for tomatoes, squash and peppers with a 6-10' solid panel wood fence near the back of your garden. "Indeterminate" tomato varieties will climb all the way up. Pick the spot with maximum hours of direct sunlight. This is a good spot for composting too.

Another consideration: are there any "night raiders" about (deer, rabbits/hares)? They will clean you out unless you fence the perimeter; dig the fence well into the ground.

I like the idea of trimming/topping "junk" trees to increase your light exposure.

Hope the project comes together well.

BTW: I'm told that Troy-Bilt is not what it was. The company went under, the name was bought out, and the new product is not nearly as robust as it was in years past. So consider a careful investigation before buying.

Hmm....
Just found this summertime image of the property, and I think that I might need to re-think this whole project:



Thats a LOT of tree cover, and while I know that the pond gets direct sunlight for part of the day, it's not for long.

I tell you, when we bought this place, I thought I'd love being in a heavily wooded lot, but I kind of wish we had a clear acre or two now that we're here for a while.

My neighbors behind me have 18 acres, of which 5 are clear and open meadow. Having cleared yet another fallen tree off of a smashed animal pen, I'm starting to think that it's time to start dropping more trees.

Oh, and for the folks suggesting that I contact a woodlot management company - it seems that Tulip Poplar (the trees I want down most) cost $110/hour to mill, plus the cost of transportation to the mill. It was suggested that I could get 2x4 or similar dimensional lumber out of them. At $110 an hour, I'd get about 80 2x whatevers, which is cheaper than in the stores IF they are good quality.

There's a black walnut that has no commercial value (it's too small) and one massive red oak which is so huge that there's going to be a big cost to take it down in the first place ($1,700) plus hauling and milling. The rest are an assortment of ash, some cedars (small), some maples (mixed, 1 or 2 sugar maples in there) and several small Hickories, which I'd love to keep, but I have other, larger and highly productive ones on the property and we like to snack on the nuts.

So, basically, my woodlot is an expense, not an asset, and to take it down would require special permits, which I could not get anyway.

Oh well, back to the community garden plot we've been doing at the farm a few miles away. I was hoping to be more local.

I'm confused, special permits to cut down trees on your land?

I think the only possible solution that will allow you to have any garden that received sunlight is to cut down your 20 trees on the northside around the pond, and then fence the area off. next chance you get to cut down another bunch of trees, suct them down in the same area.

The soil should be fairly fertile. If you make a good compost pile each year, that should take care of most of the soil's needs. For the next year.

Martin,

How about planting "wild foods"? Meet with some of the forestry experts and find out what berries, mushrooms, tubers, vines, ferns, and other edible wild plants could grow throughout your woods. It probably wouldn't be as productive as a regular garden but it would be something you could start now to help suppliment your meals. Heck, you might already have a lot of food growing there.

-Blast

Blast has a good idea. I know of one plant that would provide a decent amount of sustenance, even if you only used it because it attracted critters. Chufa is a plant that forms a starchy tuber like a cross of a potato and a peanut, and the tuber is edible. It also attracts deer and turkey, so it might help stock the freezer.

You might already have and should be able to grow ramps.

Have you considered stocking the pond? You could probably stock with a number of fish. Channel cats should work and there is a lot of info available on raising them.

Finally, if you really want some trees gone and cannot cut them down legally, considering putting a couple pigs out there for a short while where you want the garden. They will clear out trees and leave fertile soil behind.

Hi Martin,

Nice property.

I had a bushlot 15 years ago and had a lot of fun improving it. Each year I cut firewood to heat 3 houses, planted the thin soiled areas to white pine/red oak and harvested deer/grouse and hares.

In 1996 I had to relocate to keep my job so I sold the house and property; it is now a golf course.

Mike

Forest farming: raising fruits, mushrooms, nuts, medicinal plants on woodlots. Who knew?
http://hwwff.cce.cornell.edu/learning.php

This si the Cornell coop ext website, offers multi-media training for lots of stff. The UKentucky site indicates that tulip poplar was used for ship and canoe building.

Yes, if you want to cut down more than 20 trees in total in any given year, or if you want to clear an area larger than 100x100, you need to go to the township council and apply for a permit.

Clear-cutting is specifically named as an illegal act in my township, and the can and do enforce it.

You must either be really tall or have incredibly strong legs to get a picture like that.

Hi Martin,

A 100'x100' garden is a good start for the first year, then expand it every year after that until you have the size garden you want.

I have gone to my Township Council for permits in the past and it was not a big deal, especially if you are trying to improve the property.

I am not familiar with the type of poplar trees that you have but here it is hard to keep poplar from growing back in the cleared area by suckering or seeding.

My hunting partners and I are looking at establishing wildlife forage plots at our remote hunt camp, but the biggest job would be keeping the trees/brush from regenerating the cleared land and shading out the seeded crops.

Good Luck,

Mike

OH WOW!! GREAT LINK!!
Of course, my boss may not think so...

Thanks, NurseMike!
-Blast

"...if you want to cut down more than 20 trees in total in any given year, or if you want to clear an area larger than 100x100, you need to go to the township council and apply for a permit."

So, couldn't you take out 19 carefully selected trees, not completely clearing an area? The sunlight moves.

Sue

i think that the 19 trees per year idea would work well, and i would suggest that your purchase your own chainsaw to do the work.
Working with chainsaws is dangerous but if you know what your doing and keep the saw well maintained, then there is a much smaller chance of getting hurt.

Pigs or goats would prolly kill the trees really quickly if you needed a reason to take the trees down.

There might also be a local equipment rental store where you could rent a stump grinder by the day or half-day in order to clear the stumps.

If you buy or rent a chainsaw be sure to also get the full safety equipment and proper instruction. I have seen the damage a chainsaw can to to the body and have been saved in the past by wearing the proper gear.

Since you have a woodlot to manage I would suggest you buy a good saw, a Husqvarna or Stihl would make a great Fathers Day gift (or for Mothers Day if your wife is really understanding)?

Mike

Have you thought of alternative types of gardens? From the pictures it looks as if you may have enough room for a small green house or enough area for an aquaponics set up near the pond. Here is a site with some information on it; a lot of can be produced in a fairly small area with this process especially when combined with a green house.
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/

raydarkhorse,

I'm not even into gardening and this looks way cool!! Great concept. Thanks for the link.