I agree. If you want to start banning people of being tired of your self adulation, put me on that list.

How could something as heavy and bulky as a wiggy bag NOT be warm?!? Everyone says that they are not "hiking" when they are using theirs so they aren't worried about all that wt and bulk. Aren't there other quality bags that are just as warm only with much less wt and bulk? Why is wiggys better than those ones?

I'm not picking on the wiggy bag or mr wiggy, heck there are a lot of nuts in the outdoor industry, just consider ray jardine. It doesn't mean their ideas or products are bad.

But a heavy bulky bag that's expensive to boot - I don't understand the appeal. Maybe if I actually seen one to compare I would. And I can understand going to any lengths to be warm in very cold artic conditions. I don't see the appeal of a heavy lightweight bag at all though.

To sort of hijack the thread, I just got my first down bag, a summer bag, the montbell UL SS #5 (35-40 degrees)and cannot see myself using my synthetic bag in anything but some kind of dire conditions where I did not have control over my shelter. I don't know what that would be off the bat, I have never gotten wet in any of my tents and more often than not it rains when I am camping or hiking. I actaully like to lay in a tent in the rain. I like rain period! We've had this insufferable drought for over 5 years, I think last year was the worst I have seen, and it finally seems to be raining like it used to. I got so exited I pitched my tents in the yard and hung out in them. It was awesome! I did my BA seedhouse once then the next weekend my HS tarptent double rainbow. My neighbors think I'm crazy but I know that it's really them.

The WM bags are supposed to be the mack daddy of down bags. If I ever excape from the east coast to somewhere where I could actually enjoy true wilderness I think I would like one of those. I have never met or heard of anyone that has been dissapointed in their WM bag.

I like my montbell so much that I turned my heat down some and opened my bedroom window so I could snuggle with it! I have tried it at 38 degrees in the yard to about 65 in the house. Over 65 it gets too warm, 60 is good though.

Maybe my neighbors are right.

Glockaroo and Sodak, In case you haven't noticed, there is a wide range of opinions and writing styles on the forum. Nobody gets banned for an opinion, experience or ideas. We all have our share. If you don't like my style take it up with Doug. I am sure you would both make fine forum administrators and willing to volunteer the same hours I have over the years. Do talk this over with your significant others, cats and prospective employers and get back to me in 24 hours. until then I still believe you thin skinned heros would find an arctic rated Wiggy bag just about right for this summer.

gitarmac,

"Everyone says that they are not "hiking" when they are using theirs so they aren't worried about all that wt and bulk."

I think you (and others) are not understanding our comments. Even though I may be inserted and extracted by helicopter, I may walk 10 to 15 miles on a typical day, all of it with a pack (including my Wiggy's bag). Although I am not "hiking" the effect is the same. The Marines I described in an earlier post have the same situation. They may use vehicles "when they can" but they still do a LOT of walking (maybe 1500 miles per year or more) with that same full pack on their back. In the Middle East, no, but in training they walk extra. We were on a weekend (3 day) "hike" but they brought their Wiggy's bags instead of the lightweight down ones they all owned.

A Wiggy's bag I now own (a Superlite) is not that much heavier than the Holubar down bag I bought in the 60's. That was a rugged bag too. The new super light bags do not use the same weight of fabric (many use mesh for the baffles) - much lighter, but also much easier to damage.

The rain is not the only source of moisture. Sometimes it is enough though. I have seen storms blow water through the zippers of good tents. After a few weeks in a bag you need to dry it out. Most campers I know will spend a day in camp once a week or so to dry everything out if the weather is damp all the time. I do not always have the time to do that. I don't know where you use your bag, but when I lived in the Rockies, I was not concerned about staying dry either (and I do love to hike in the rain). Yes my bag got wet once or twice and I spent a cold night. But it was not often and the bag would dry the next day. In SE Alaska I have seen weeks where you would not be able to dry a down bag without prodigeous efforts, and possibly not then if you did not have the right equipment (a normal tent and stove probably would not make it).

We must all consider OUR situations and plan for them. Is the synthetic bag for everyone everywhere? Of course not, just like the down bag. If I had only one bag to do everything with (my wife would be happy:-) it would be my Wiggy's FTRSS would be it. If I have the choice (thankfully I do) I have other bags for situations where they might be better.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Yeah, that's why I say there are instances where I would use my sythetic bag. Unfortunatly I am not lucky enough to get out for anything but a few days, it's not terribly cold and I don't have to worry about wetting my down bag out. I doubt my montbell will ever be in much danger. I don't plan on living here forever so who knows, I might be a wiggy sleeper some day. There was a time when I thought I would never have a down bag!

Here's an interesting article on the down bags.

http://www.backpacking.net/gear-reviews/sleeping-bag-review/sleeping-bag-review.html#water


WATER RESISTANCE

Although none of these bags are intended to be weather proof, they all are afforded a generous application of Durable Water Repellent (DWR) treatment to protect the down insulation from getting wet and becoming dysfunctional. The following tests were performed to observe how each bag performed, in relation to the other bags. The goal was to (1) examine how each bag's shell material responded to persistently applied water and (2) examine how each bag responded to water persistently applied to its always vulnerable seams.

We first created a little crater in at least two places on each bag and filled with eight to ten ounces of water. We let the water remain for at least 1/2 hour. After removing the water, we visually checked for wetout of the shell material, dampness/wetness of the down and dampness/wetness on the inside of the bag. The second test was similar except the puddles of water were positioned directly over the seams.

All bags passed the first test with relatively similar results. All bags failed the second test, with relatively similar results.

* Nunatak - Great DWR -- BUT water seeps thru seams.
* Marmot - excellent DWR, very water repellent, water beads up & rolls off -- BUT water seeps thru seams.
* Big Agnes - excellent DWR, very water repellent, water beads up & rolls off -- BUT water seeps thru seams.
* Western - very good DWR, water resistant, water does not soak thru but does dampen shell -- water seeps thru seams
* Moonstone - very good DWR, water resistant, water does not soak thru but does dampen shell -- water seeps thru seams
* Mountainsmith - very good DWR, water resistant, water does not soak thru but does dampen shell -- water seeps thru seams
* Exped - good coat of DWR, water resistant, water does not soak thru but does dampen shell -- water seeps thru seams

TEST #1 RANKINGS (shell material):

1. Nunatak Alpinist (like a duck's back)
2. Marmot bags (nicely beads up)
2. Big Agnes bags (nicely beads up)
3. Moonstone Lucid 800 (shell slightly damp)
3. Western Mountaineering bags (shell slightly damp)
3. Mountainsmith Bags (shell slightly damp)
4. Exped Hummingbird (shell damp)

TEST #2 RANKINGS (seams):

1. Moonstone Lucid 800 (took longer to soak thru seams, but end result the same - very wet inside bag)
2. Nunatak Alpinist (very wet inside of bag)
2. Marmot bags (very wet inside of bag)
2. Big Agnes bags (very wet inside of bag)
2. Western Mountaineering bags (very wet inside of bag)
2. Exped Hummingbird (very wet inside of bag)

Incidentally, I also included the Western Mountaineering Apache Super Microfiber in this water test. As you know, the microfiber material is windproof and highly water resistant. Well, just so you know, the seams on these highly water resistant bags (be it microfiber, dryloft, or equivalents) will allow water seepage into the bag the same as the bags which rely solely on a DWR coating. The only advantage to the microfiber or dryloft type fabrics is that they will afford longer-term durability and offer water resistance after their DWR coating wears off. Don't presume, then, that a very expensive dryloft bag will provide the functionality of a waterproof bivy sack. You might indeed, get very wet and become very disappointed.

More info

http://www.alaskamountaineering.com/Info.cfm?id=6&d=41&c=0&s=0

There are a few tricks to help save your trip if your down bag does become wet out in the hills. Most times, your down bag becomes damp from your body vapor and clothes or just one specific area actually gets wet from a food spill, snow drug into your tent, wet boot, etc. The more heat inside the bag the faster the down will dry. Placing several water bottles filled with hot water inside your damp down bag will generate more heat and help dry the down faster. If your down bag becomes quite damp, like after a five day storm, turning the bag inside out while placing hot bottles of water inside will allow moisture to pass through bag faster due to the open nylon weave, especially helpful if your bag has a water-proof shell. If a specific area gets wet, place a water bottle filled with hot water under the wet area. Wet down clumps so breaking up the down clumps in very wet areas will spread out the down to allow the down to dry faster. Place clothing on top of the bag or wet area to boost the thermal will also speed up the drying process. Most users understand to dry a wet bag, lay it in the sun on top of a tent but an erected tent in the sun can get blistering hot inside. Turning your bag inside out and placing it inside a tent in the sun can almost get to an at home clothes dryer temperature. This trick also works for any damp gear.

Never store your sleeping bag completely stuff inside its stuff sack. This will compress the fibers of both down and synthetic damaging the fibers. The best way to store any sleeping bag is laying completely flat or hanging in a well ventilated cool and dark area. But most of us do not have the means to accomplish this especially when owning several bags so the next best way is inside a large cotton bag. Never store a wet or even a one night used sleeping bag in any container and this is tripled for down. Once home after your trip, hang or lay your bag completely open for several days. For a thick down bag it may take up to a week for the insulation and internal areas to completely dry. We rotate our bags around during the drying time to help air reach all areas of the bag. Some prescribe washing your down sleeping bag at home and there are even special soaps and rinses on the market for down bags. But we do not feel this way for high end down bags. Down sleeping bags cost a small fortune and down contains its own oil that helps protect itself in the wilderness when it was attached to the bird and improper washing can remove this oil. Down absorbs an incredible amount of water and washing a down bag in your bath tub fills the down with pounds of water. Trying to re-position the bag inside the tub and then removing the wet bag can stress the internal seams and they can rip, and you won’t even know it happened. Using a commercial machine causes untold stress on the seams with all that water weight soaked into the down. Manufactures will not warrant a bag washed at home. AMH recommends and uses a reputable down care specialist.

If you must wash your down bag at home there a few tricks. Turn your down bag inside out then re-stuff it back into its stuff sack. Fill a bath tub with warm water and add down specific soap. Place your down bag inside the water while it is still inside its stuff sack. Gently pull your down bag out of its stuff sack and let the bag fill with water. Ensure you keep the bag as flat as possible. Use your hands to squeeze the soapy water throughout your bag. Severely dirty bags made require several fresh soapy water washings. Once satisfied, drain the soapy water and refill the tub with clean water. Squeeze the clean water several times through your bag with your hands. Rinsing three, four or even five times may not be sufficient. Then squeeze as much water out of your bag before trying to remove it out from the tub. Gently roll your wet bag up and support its weight by your arms underneath the whole rolled bag as you remove it from the tub. Its best if you can place your wet down bag into a washer on spin cycle to spin out as much water as possible. Gently place your bag into a drier and dry for up to six hours on low to medium heat. Placing clean tennis balls in with your bag during drying will help break up the wet clumps. Once you think your down bag is dry, run your hands over the entire bag searching for clumps of down, which means the bag is not dry. Once you think your down bag is dry and you find no clumps, let you bag hang or lay flat for several days to ensure all moisture is removed.

Synthetic bags are much easier to wash at home and your standard washing machine with a large capacity works OK but a commercial tumble washer is preferred. Zip the bag completely up and turn it inside out so the soap and water can easily get through-out the fill. Use a sleeping bag specific wash or a mild soap and rinse the bag at least three times. Hang dry for twenty-four hours and you are done. Do not use bleach. Stain and dirt-busting detergents can be used on tuff stains. Once a synthetic bag has been through the spin cycle you will understand why synthetic fill rules the wet alpine world.


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On my own note I have both bags and each has it's place but my preference is down by far. When I git caught in a 2 day rain storm in my synthetic bag, it was completely soaked but maintained a little heat but if the temps were colder it would be severe hypothermia, so in my opinion either bag would had been useless once soaked, just the synthetic would be quicker to dry if I had a fire going or a sunny day.

One of Backpacker Magazines Editors Choices 2003.

Backpacker Magazine – April 2003

Mountain Hardwear Spectre SL
Problem: A wet down bag really sucks. Solution: a waterproof down bag. Next problem?

by:

The paradox of down is legendary: We love the light, fluffy, compressible warmth, but hate the soggy, wilted-lettuce misery of wet feathers. So when Mountain Hardwear rolled out a down bag and told us it was waterproof, we were excited-and skeptical.

The first stormy night our equipment editor spent in the Spectre, a steady downpour pounded the bag. He admits, "It felt unnatural, like pitching a tent in your living room. But soon enough I realized the inside of the bag was staying warm and dry, and I went happily to sleep with the pitter-patter of rain closer than ever before."

How does the Spectre work? The shell is made with Conduit (Mountain Hardwear's proprietary waterproof/breathable fabric), the seams are welded, and a storm flap protects the zipper. The most significant innovation is the welding, or gluing, technology that seals the seams and makes the Spectre the first watertight bag that really works and has a reasonable price tag.

But don't throw out your tent just yet. The Spectre isn't really intended for use alone in the rain (water will enter through the hood), but rather as the ideal sack for tarps, single-wall shelters, and snow caves, where wind-blown moisture and condensation are your big concerns.

The Spectre easily shed drizzly weather in the Smokies, and it puffed up reasonably well even after we stuffed it wet. All testers agreed the bag's 25°F rating is conservative, thanks to plenty of 800-fill-power down, a snug-fitting hood, heat-trapping draft collar, and a comfortably efficient cut. (Need more warmth? Try the 10°F Banshee SL.) Our only complaints: The membrane left us slightly clammy in moderate temps.

Weight: 2 lbs. 12 oz.
Price: $350

Contact: Mountain Hardwear, (800) 953-8375 ; www.mountainhardwear.com.


The Sock

Is it possible to waterproof the down itself? Nikwax shows feathers with water beading on them, on its 'down proof' liquid.
Anyone know how well this works? And if anyone applies it professionally for the ten thumbed among us?
The Sock

Since only I am posting to this thread, it looks like I'm talking to myself. But that's never stopped me before! :-)

Ok waterproof bag, nikwax proofing. Here's a third solution:
A waterproof breathable bivi bag.
For 110 pounds (which normally translates to 110 dollars) you can get a goretex upper and waterbloc base bag, that weighs only a pound. Made b yTerra Nova. Don't know if that makes exist in the states; but you'll have equivalent bags.
Handy for when you don't hav the room or are too exhausted to erect a tent. Or just want to look at the stars.
The Sock