Maybe I can provide a small amount of insight.

First off, I am in no way an official spokesman for the BSA, so please take everything with a grain of salt (or several).

One of the Bear rank activities (~ 9 years old) is the Whitilin' Chip, where they learn how to safely handle and sharpen a pocket knife. This is at the discretion of the den leader and is not a rank advancement requirement.

Once they advance into the Webelos rank the following year, they start doing a lot more outdoor activities. This is like a transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.

BSA has developed the Scouting program with what they consider "age appropriate" activities. This is, and has been, an area of concern for some (me included). Many Scouts complain that the Bear rank is too much "arts and crafts" and the boys start to loose interest.

One of their (BSA’s) concerns is that if the boys are doing a lot of high adventure-like activities at a young age, they have nothing to look forward to in Boy Scouts and will drop out.

As has been noted in previous posts, all of the leaders are volunteers and you get what you get. If there is any concern, ask if the leaders have gone to all of their training. Many leaders, especially at the den leader level, don’t go to training. As a Unit Commissioner, it is one of my primary concerns to get them there. While it is strongly encouraged, we can’t force them to go. Unfortunately, the outdoor leader training doesn’t start until Webelos leader level. Others can go, but usually don’t.

Again, I’m not an official spokesman for the BSA, just someone with 10 years as a unit leader, and 2 years as a district volunteer.

Hope this helps. Please don’t give up on the Scouts. We need all of the help from parents that we can get.

Just a few thoughts on Cub Scouts, as #1 (Bear) and #2 son (Wolf) started it this year.

I'm not really a fan of way its structured around "achievements" in a book. However, some kids thrive on that sort of thing so I figured I'd give mine a chance to try it.

I was looking forward to the "winter camping" until I found out it was in a heated cabin.

It sounds like the older scouts do a ton of camping an hiking, but there still seems to be a lot of emphasis on "merit badges". We'll see.

I did Wolf & Bear when I was a kid but quit after that. It was too arts & craftsy for me and it was run by the mothers rather than the fathers. We never did any camping or hiking or anything like that.

I did CAP while I was in highschool and we took pride in being much more hardcore than those wimpy Boy Scouts. CAP is highly structured, but in a different way.

Anyway, Martin, where do we sign up?

Leathercraft, cooking skills, indoor target practice with paintballs, building firestarting aids (the dryer lint and candlewax in cardboard egg carton type), stoneknapping, electronics (teach them basic theory using those cool radio shack 50 in 1 type kits), orienteering using map and compass, how to disassemble/clean/reassemble common firearms.

In addition to most of the above, some education is the workings of simple mechanical items. I know cars today are not as simple as they once were, as everything is managed by a computer. However, it's sad when I meet a man who has no clue whatsoever on how to do anything with a tool in his hands.

As far as knots, I think every human should know how to tie a hitch (I prefer two half hitches), a bend that will connect two lines together (double becket bend) AND, ABOVE ALL, a bowline. And bowlines should be tied without the use of the rabbit, tree and hole story.

And thseng's comments on cubscouts being too craftsy are right on. It was fine to be one for two years, but at the end of those two years, it was lame, and that is a memory from thirty years ago.

I'd echo a lot of what scouterman said. The scouting experience on an individual level varies a great deal from one unit to another. I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. Leaders' backgrounds, abilities and experiences all vary a great deal. The kids interests vary as well. For all the negatives that exist in scouting there are many positives as well and I think on balance the positives out weigh the negatives.

Keep in mind, especially at Cub Scout ages, there are plenty of kids who have not been away from home overnight, have not slept in a tent, let alone used a pocket knife...... Finding a balance between all the varying backgrounds and interests is a tough job.

What scouting needs are leaders who buy into the program and are willing to put in the time to make a troop successful.

I was a boy scout as a youth, an adult boy scout volunteer, and am now a co-leader of two girl scout troops as both my daughters are in girl scouts.

Martin -

Very cool...I would join.

I don't really have any inside activites to add..but map skills is a lost art. There is a whole generation of skills that are in danger of becoming lost. Cooking skills, soapmaking, candlemaking, leather work...the list is endless.

On a personal note..I was in the Cub Scouts and quit for several reasons. The most notable was that we had "Den Mothers". We never went camping, we made crafts..that was it. To go camping I was in Royal Ambassadors through my local church...we went camping, learned knots, sharpened knives and alot of cool stuff. Nothing against those ladies, but as a boy, making a decopage(sp) flower pot was not my idea of a fun time.

I applaud your endeavor.

I don't want this to become a debate over the merits or lack thereof of the scouts, however, I feel compelled to expand upon the reasoning that led us to the withdrawal.

We did NOT withdraw because of the leaders or the troop itself. They work very hard, and I had no problem with them. Nice people, for the most part. My issues are with the core of the organization and the way it has to operate, the rules it enforces and the core principles that it has adopted in the last 10 years or so don't work for me.

If you want more, PM, I'll expand fully. I won't do it out here in public.

I'm curious to know what the reasoning behind your issue with the scouts. Please PM me.

Let me just say though, scouting isn't all about wild adventures and teaching little kids to become the next Survivorman or Bear Gryllis's (or is that Grylli?). Yes, camping, shooting, eating wild plants and tracking animals and all that fun stuff is just a small part of it, and probably what keeps the kids interested. But I don't think the main goal of scouting is to turn kids into little rugged mountain men. Don't forget that you probably have a huge group of people from all different backgrounds. For some kids, they've never even seen a tent, and have never spent a night outdoors, so throwing them out there in the snow and telling them to build a fire to survive the night might be a good learning experience, but not one they're going to want to repeat. If your kid is already too advanced for their activities, there's no reason why he can't be in the cub scouts AND go on alternative trips with your group.

If you look at what they focus on, and the merit badges required to move up in ranks, a lot of them have nothing in common with outdoor adventure. What it does is encourage kids to learn leadership and become a well rounded individual. Maybe Scouterman can provide more details on the goals. But learning how to manage my finances is just as important as learning hot to start a fire. Learning about how our government works can be just as useful as building a lean to shelter.

It's been a really long time and all my experience is with the Boy scouts, not the cub scouts. So maybe things have changed for the worse, I dunno. From your initial post, it sounded like your main issues were the scouts weren't doing enough things to keep you and your kid occupied. Other than a few notable political issues with the scouts, I can't think of anything that's really offensive in their values.

As far as advancement and achievements, that really depends on how the leaders choose to interpret the rules. There's nothing that says a scout has to advance, any "encouragement" is strictly up to the parents running it. Unfortunately, just like in school sports, some parents see it as a competition try and push the children for all the wrong reasons.

I'll PM you on this.

Martin, check PM. C7