Ah, gotcha. I figured it was something like that. They look like reasonably good bags, but they seem heavy for their temperature ratings.

Back to the thread theme: weight versus value.

My daypack is only 2 and a half pounds without water. I might not be as equipped as people here, but I am certainly more prepared than most people in the outdoors.

Weight versus value preparedness spectra ideas.

Physical weight may relate to value differently in different survival situations. The value of ultra-light consumables may match up better in a short-term emergency, for example.

As I think about this, my mind wants to classify things to help plan appropriate preparation. I presume wiser heads have already thought this through and I welcome corrections and comments to help me better wrap my head around these concepts.

Possible gear kit weight spectrum:

1. ultra-light - PSK and PFAK, recreational day pack

2. lightweight – BOB, recreational backpack

3. medium weight – car kit

4. heavy weight – survival cache


Possible gear value spectrum:

1. Ultra-low – single use consumable

2. Low – multiple use consumable, or battery dependent

3. Medium – self-powered or high-quality mechanical

4. High – skill-based and replaceable


Possible survival need spectrum:

1. Short-term emergency – almost instant need to take action to preserve and protect self or others, such as first aid.

2. Limited-term emergency – one-dimensional, limited time, limited area problem with need to preserve and protect self or others, such as power loss from a storm

3. Long-term emergency – multi-dimensional, uncertain duration, either a widespread problem with need to preserve and protect self or others, such as power, water, sewer, etc. out due to a major regional hurricane, or to your group without expectation of short-term assistance, such as plane crash deep in the wilderness

4. Permanent emergency – TEOTW-type scenario

Hikin_jim
yes my problem with the Crusader canteen/cup/stove kit is that it is alot of weight for what it is. There are some lightweight alternatives to this kit which have almost the same durable aspects as the Crusader kit. Since this thread started I have moved my Crusader kit to my vehicle kit and went the Nalgene bottle/titanium cup way for my pack. Using the Nalgene bottle for more storage which I couldnt do with the Crusader due to the size of the mouth.

OK, that's kind of what I figured. The stainless steel cups while durable are heavy. I've seen the Ti cups that fit over the bottom of a standard Nalgene, and that looks like a better way to go. (besides I've already got several Nalgenes)

Thanks!

Let me add my 2 cents and hopefully get back to the original question.

First two points:
1. SERE and the choice of equipment has little to do with a day pack. VERY different problem, different solutions. Even the course equipment is different from what experienced people carry in the field. The course usually sets limits on equipment and you are required to spend a certain number of days in the field. It ends when the course is over. In real life you want to get out FAST! Even in the 60's many carried 2 survival radios and extra batteries - in place of food and even ammo. Extra mirrors (they were glass), smoke and flares were important.

2. Long term survival has NO real part in the discussion of a day pack. You should have left a trip plan, notified people where you were going, carried a PLB - in short this is a limited time problem. Food is comforting, not necessary. Being warm, dry and found is the critical part.

The equipment in a day pack can be divided (for survival purposes) into three areas: The items you carry for the reason you are in the woods, The items you carry for use that day that can be helpful during a survival situation and The true survival equipment that you carry ONLY for survival use.

The first group is normally just slightly useful for survival, ie Cameras, hunting equipment, tools (I am a geologist and carry a rock hammer, etc). They can add considerable weight but we willingly carry it because we want to or have to. Not my impression of the topic of this discussion.

The second group is important, but once again we carry much of this for daily use and would carry it anyway (although weight here is certainly of more importance). As an example, our primary water bottle is not carried for survival. It is however very useful. In my case I carry a small stove (MSR Pocket Rocket) because I like tea and often soup for lunch and in many places it is bad manners or very time consuming to build a fire like I did in the Rockies in my youth. Although these items should be regularly surveyed to keep the weight down, their primary use may dictate a different standard for them.

The third group is the equipment you carry for survival. Here there are many outside influences on what you carry and the weight to value considerations. When I am working in Florida in the summer, a sleeping bag is not in my ruck. It goes in right after signaling if I am working in Alaska. How far I may be from help is also a big question. If I work in Northern Alaska, carried in by helicopter, I plan for a longer stay than if I am enjoying the leaves in the NC mountains.

In all of this, my prime criteria is that I can stay comfortable (where I am) until help arrives. My first priority is getting help (a PLB, signal mirror, flares, whistle, aviation radio (part of the second catagory), etc.

If you would like to see what I carry for a specific situation, let me know.

Respectfully,

Jerry

That seems consistent; a good extension of the application.

In general, I think you're right about food. In cold weather, however, I think the priority on food ought to be a lot higher. Food = calories = warmth = reduced chance of hypothermia. If you've ever spent extended times in cold weather, you know what I'm talking about: you get ravenous.

Comments?

Jim,

I agree that food is more critical for cold weather, but enough for the day + is part of the second catagory, stuff you are carrying for the day's use. Yes, I agree with you that in the cold there should be extra (3rd catagory) only for survival use, but it should place way behind staying found (nav), getting help (signaling) and proper shelter (both clothing and a extras).

In the winter I always carry plenty of extra food, as well as a light sleeping bag (usually an overbag to add to my parka and insulated pants - has worked well to -30F overnight). If you have the good shelter you can get by with less food. In a blizzard, the food will not make up for the lack of shelter (although in some areas shelter is easier to dream up). The Inuit caught in a blizzard takes off his mittens, places them on the ground and sits on them with his knees and arms inside the parka. Back to the wind, behind a mound of snow or in a depression they can sit for a day or two. I prefer to stretch out in my bag under a shelter I brought and eat my high calorie munchies :-).

The Wiggies bags may be a little heavier, but they are bulletproof. Very reliable kit.

Respectfully,

Jerry