My son and I, upon mutual agreement, have withdrawn from the cub scouts for a long list of reasons, all of which I won't share here, with one exception: He was not allowed to carry a pocket knife to meetings and/or events.

We have formed, with 20 other people, aged 7 to 45, the "Young Adventurers Club" and we are doing stuff that I thought we should have been doing in the scouts all along. A lot of what we do sounds like what they used to do in scouting, however, we don't treat the kids like idiots, and lo and behold, they don't act like idiots.

The one requirement of membership in the YAC?
You have to have a pocket knife.

The basic principles of the YAC are:

- doing things is better than just watching things done.
- mixed age groups and genders (just like real life)
- real tools, real adventures, real risks.

So, while factory tours and prefab birdhouse kits might be fun for some, we're out in the woods, in the rain, making a shelter and a real fire. We're exploring a cave, we're floating on the Delaware river in our canoes. We're shooting real .22 rifles, we're doing stuff that our grandparents did when they were kids.

Right now, we're looking for some ideas for INDOOR adventures for the next few weeks, while cold weather survival is interesting and all, I know that I'd rather be indoors for a while.

So, given what you've read, what would you suggest?

martin,

EXCELLENT IDEA!! I've often thought about doing something similar once my girls are a bit older.

Possible indoor activities:
1. knots and lashing
2. first aid
3. raising frogs (kits can be purchased on-line)
4. eating frogs once they mature 9may be a bit much for some kids)
5. tanning leather (any roadkill around this time of year)
6. making assorted campstoves (pop can, wood gas, etc...)
7. the "What If/How Could..." game (what if you a blizzard trapped us in this building with no power. How could we stay warm, fed and hydrated?)
8. basket weaving (useful skill!)
9. sewing/mending
10. whittling

-Blast

Martin,

Have some "speed" events set up to practice basic skills. Something like an indoor Seneca run:

-Knot-tying station.
-Setting up/tearing down a freestanding tent or shelter. You can use dumb bells (iron, not people) as dead man anchoring points for a primitive shelter.
-Repair some torn clothing from the backpack sewing kit
-Have them tie some of the knots blindfolded.
-Set up first-aid scenarios: make a litter, sling an arm, etc

-See who can burp the entire alphabet in one burp.

-A knife sharpening "clinic"
-Discuss home and camp fire safety

Good point BDTX....I started my son cooking when he was about 9 yrs old.

That is such a great idea!

How about an impromptu Emergency Kit Scavenger Hunt. They look through an area (limits defined, indoors or out) for materials that could be useful in an emergency. They would have to have a reasonable use for each, and the one with the most useful stuff wins something.

Sue

1. Bouldering/Rock climbing

Some wild edible classes while its cold with good color pictures, and then actual scavenging and taste testing during the spring during a camping trip.
When I was a kid I built Estes rockets, a good winter project that you can launch when the weathers better. Most of the rocket parts can be made from household goods or from kits.
tracking skills from pictures with follow ups during camping trips.

"...You have to have a pocket knife..."

I'm not at my best (if there is such a thing) tonight, having spent the last couple of days painting the inside of a visitor center/office complex (did I mention that I hate to paint?), so this is the best I can come up with right now. Make sure that those pocket knives have locking blades...

Martin,

Have you considered looking into a different troop/pack? Because if you didn't mention that you've already tried the scouts, I would have said the group you describe is exactly what the scouts are supposed to be. The problem is, the pack is only as good as the parents in charge, and usually you'll have some overzealous parent trying to make it into what he wants or thinks it should be. That kinda sounds like the problem you're having. I can't be sure about the pocketknife issue in cub scouts, but in the Boy Scouts it was practically required to have a pocketknife on you at all times. And we did almost everything you mentioned, and more. One advantage to being in the Scouts is that you will have opportunities to go places and do things that most of the normal public probably can't, just because they have such a huge network.

Unless there was something fundamentally wrong with the core scouting ideals that you disagree with, I wouldn't let one experience ruin it for you, I'm almost positive that the group you describe does exist in one of the scouting troops in your area. It's just like being in school, the teacher can make or break your experience in class. And rather than trying to start something completely new from scratch, why don't you just start up a different cub scout troop? At the very least you'll have the support of the BSA, and you might be able to win over some of the poor cubs stuck in that other troop.

Hi Martin,

I agree with the person who replied that a youth group is the product of what the leaders make it; I have been in poor ones, good ones and am currently involved in a great one (very functional and outdoor oriented).

In the youth group that I am involved with now the on-person required items for an outdoor event are: folding locking knife or multi-tool, matches in waterproof case, small flashlight, plastic pea-less whistle, notepad and pencil, sunscreen/lip protection, sun glasses, personal identification and a small personal survival kit.

You could teach a survival lesson, the basic one I do takes about an hour, and we follow it up with each student assembling there own small survival kit. I posted what our youth group did here http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=9218&Number=100560#Post100560

Something interesting that I made with the kids years ago was a simple spark-based fire starter.

Take a 1.5" piece of hardwood dowel, angle one end at 45*s and cut a shallow groove lenght-ways on the long side with a hacksaw blade .

Mix-up some 5 minute epoxy and glue about 7 lighter flints into the groove, allow to set. Have the kids print their names on the dowel.

Using a short piece of hacksaw blade, scrape the sparks from the striker into some cotton balls/PJ = Instant fire and a very amazed kid.

Let the child start their own campfire with the sparker-tool and then cook over it (even a marshmellow), to them it is a very big, rewarding accomplishment.

All of the parts of this fire set; dowel/flint striker, mini-hacksaw blade, PJ/cotton balls can be stored in a watertight 35mm film canister (I still have mine from 20 years ago).

This is a great exercise as it involves practicing a lot of useful hands-on skills; measuring, toolcraft, mixing, fire triangle theory, survival, how to build a fire, how to put it out, etc.

You do need to have the responsibility talk with the kids about when a fire is appropriate and when it is not.

Good Luck with your group and have fun!

Mike

Maybe I can provide a small amount of insight.

First off, I am in no way an official spokesman for the BSA, so please take everything with a grain of salt (or several).

One of the Bear rank activities (~ 9 years old) is the Whitilin' Chip, where they learn how to safely handle and sharpen a pocket knife. This is at the discretion of the den leader and is not a rank advancement requirement.

Once they advance into the Webelos rank the following year, they start doing a lot more outdoor activities. This is like a transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.

BSA has developed the Scouting program with what they consider "age appropriate" activities. This is, and has been, an area of concern for some (me included). Many Scouts complain that the Bear rank is too much "arts and crafts" and the boys start to loose interest.

One of their (BSA’s) concerns is that if the boys are doing a lot of high adventure-like activities at a young age, they have nothing to look forward to in Boy Scouts and will drop out.

As has been noted in previous posts, all of the leaders are volunteers and you get what you get. If there is any concern, ask if the leaders have gone to all of their training. Many leaders, especially at the den leader level, don’t go to training. As a Unit Commissioner, it is one of my primary concerns to get them there. While it is strongly encouraged, we can’t force them to go. Unfortunately, the outdoor leader training doesn’t start until Webelos leader level. Others can go, but usually don’t.

Again, I’m not an official spokesman for the BSA, just someone with 10 years as a unit leader, and 2 years as a district volunteer.

Hope this helps. Please don’t give up on the Scouts. We need all of the help from parents that we can get.

Just a few thoughts on Cub Scouts, as #1 (Bear) and #2 son (Wolf) started it this year.

I'm not really a fan of way its structured around "achievements" in a book. However, some kids thrive on that sort of thing so I figured I'd give mine a chance to try it.

I was looking forward to the "winter camping" until I found out it was in a heated cabin.

It sounds like the older scouts do a ton of camping an hiking, but there still seems to be a lot of emphasis on "merit badges". We'll see.

I did Wolf & Bear when I was a kid but quit after that. It was too arts & craftsy for me and it was run by the mothers rather than the fathers. We never did any camping or hiking or anything like that.

I did CAP while I was in highschool and we took pride in being much more hardcore than those wimpy Boy Scouts. CAP is highly structured, but in a different way.

Anyway, Martin, where do we sign up?

Leathercraft, cooking skills, indoor target practice with paintballs, building firestarting aids (the dryer lint and candlewax in cardboard egg carton type), stoneknapping, electronics (teach them basic theory using those cool radio shack 50 in 1 type kits), orienteering using map and compass, how to disassemble/clean/reassemble common firearms.

In addition to most of the above, some education is the workings of simple mechanical items. I know cars today are not as simple as they once were, as everything is managed by a computer. However, it's sad when I meet a man who has no clue whatsoever on how to do anything with a tool in his hands.

As far as knots, I think every human should know how to tie a hitch (I prefer two half hitches), a bend that will connect two lines together (double becket bend) AND, ABOVE ALL, a bowline. And bowlines should be tied without the use of the rabbit, tree and hole story.

And thseng's comments on cubscouts being too craftsy are right on. It was fine to be one for two years, but at the end of those two years, it was lame, and that is a memory from thirty years ago.

I'd echo a lot of what scouterman said. The scouting experience on an individual level varies a great deal from one unit to another. I'd caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. Leaders' backgrounds, abilities and experiences all vary a great deal. The kids interests vary as well. For all the negatives that exist in scouting there are many positives as well and I think on balance the positives out weigh the negatives.

Keep in mind, especially at Cub Scout ages, there are plenty of kids who have not been away from home overnight, have not slept in a tent, let alone used a pocket knife...... Finding a balance between all the varying backgrounds and interests is a tough job.

What scouting needs are leaders who buy into the program and are willing to put in the time to make a troop successful.

I was a boy scout as a youth, an adult boy scout volunteer, and am now a co-leader of two girl scout troops as both my daughters are in girl scouts.

Martin -

Very cool...I would join.

I don't really have any inside activites to add..but map skills is a lost art. There is a whole generation of skills that are in danger of becoming lost. Cooking skills, soapmaking, candlemaking, leather work...the list is endless.

On a personal note..I was in the Cub Scouts and quit for several reasons. The most notable was that we had "Den Mothers". We never went camping, we made crafts..that was it. To go camping I was in Royal Ambassadors through my local church...we went camping, learned knots, sharpened knives and alot of cool stuff. Nothing against those ladies, but as a boy, making a decopage(sp) flower pot was not my idea of a fun time.

I applaud your endeavor.

I don't want this to become a debate over the merits or lack thereof of the scouts, however, I feel compelled to expand upon the reasoning that led us to the withdrawal.

We did NOT withdraw because of the leaders or the troop itself. They work very hard, and I had no problem with them. Nice people, for the most part. My issues are with the core of the organization and the way it has to operate, the rules it enforces and the core principles that it has adopted in the last 10 years or so don't work for me.

If you want more, PM, I'll expand fully. I won't do it out here in public.

I'm curious to know what the reasoning behind your issue with the scouts. Please PM me.

Let me just say though, scouting isn't all about wild adventures and teaching little kids to become the next Survivorman or Bear Gryllis's (or is that Grylli?). Yes, camping, shooting, eating wild plants and tracking animals and all that fun stuff is just a small part of it, and probably what keeps the kids interested. But I don't think the main goal of scouting is to turn kids into little rugged mountain men. Don't forget that you probably have a huge group of people from all different backgrounds. For some kids, they've never even seen a tent, and have never spent a night outdoors, so throwing them out there in the snow and telling them to build a fire to survive the night might be a good learning experience, but not one they're going to want to repeat. If your kid is already too advanced for their activities, there's no reason why he can't be in the cub scouts AND go on alternative trips with your group.

If you look at what they focus on, and the merit badges required to move up in ranks, a lot of them have nothing in common with outdoor adventure. What it does is encourage kids to learn leadership and become a well rounded individual. Maybe Scouterman can provide more details on the goals. But learning how to manage my finances is just as important as learning hot to start a fire. Learning about how our government works can be just as useful as building a lean to shelter.

It's been a really long time and all my experience is with the Boy scouts, not the cub scouts. So maybe things have changed for the worse, I dunno. From your initial post, it sounded like your main issues were the scouts weren't doing enough things to keep you and your kid occupied. Other than a few notable political issues with the scouts, I can't think of anything that's really offensive in their values.

As far as advancement and achievements, that really depends on how the leaders choose to interpret the rules. There's nothing that says a scout has to advance, any "encouragement" is strictly up to the parents running it. Unfortunately, just like in school sports, some parents see it as a competition try and push the children for all the wrong reasons.

I'll PM you on this.

Martin, check PM. C7

I like the idea of a "Young Adventurer's Club" a lot. I wish there had been an alternative to scouting when I was growing up simply because I couldn't seem to get a "transfer" out of the lame troop I was saddled with.

Lame or not, I had a Cub Scout Knife and was allowed to carry it.

Anyway, I'd change "- real tools, real adventures, real risks" because you're just asking to be sued if anyone ever gets hurt, or to be shut down for child endangerment.

I hope you can get this rolling.

Sue nice idea with the scavenger hunt.....I'll have to remember that one....Martin...I didn't read through all the posts so forgive me if it repeated...I know some said that some things got to artsy craftsy.....think about sewing.....and no it doesn't have to be artsy craftsy.....they should all know how to do at least the 'repair' type.....buttons...a small amount of straight line sewing (think split seam)....and reinforcing.....you could include it with a few other types of meeting activities....you split your seam....find something (scavenger hunt) to fix it with.....

Thanks everyone! You've inspired the indoor portion of the March Break camp at our house!

RE indoor tracker training: Before the event get parents and youngsters to use tupperware type boxes partially filled with damp sand to make tracks with the "help" of their favorite domestic canid, feline, turtle, lizard, birds, and whatever other pets you can find in your group. If you are brave, try to include some "scat."

Station the boxes around the room with the pet owner as part of the instructors. Have the appropriate pages from something like the Peterson's Guide to Animal Tracks at each station. Let the youngsters solo or in small groups go around the circuit try to figure out each track, then let the youngster who owns the pet instruct on the track and how to tell who made the track with the aid of the guidebook pages.

Make it part of other events going on so if someone doesn't enjoy the tracker stuff or has to wait their turn, there are other things to keep their interest.

Have fun!