In another post, someone (I think it was Susan) said that in a few years they will be speaking of the 'good old days'. That got me to thinking.....

Back when I was in college, the college rented out the dorms to summer camps. In the evenings they would have dances and things on campus for the 'kids' to go to. One night they played Billy Joel's- We didn't start the fire- all of the kids were singing along and having a great time.....A friend of mine an I were talking and when the song stopped, I had the opportunity to make a great point....I asked about 10-12 kids about some of the lyrics...."Hey guys... what does....
Dien Bein Phu....
U2........
Red China.....
Richard Nixon.....
Bay of Pigs......... Mean to you ?

Not one of them had a clue as to what the song talked about...Yeah they knew a few of the 'newer' ones but even then only a few of them knew them. BTW BJ wrote that song in response to someone saying something to him like, 'Oh you had it easy growing up...what ever happened when you were a kid?'

Still I try to maintain hope......But yesterday, while leaving a patient at the hospital, I overheard a conversation of someone who it turned out was one of the crewman on the Enola Gay. WOW!!!!! I thanked him for his service and after a few minutes, went on my way a little richer intellectually. I couldn't help but to tell several people of the meeting....'guys' I work side by side with. I guess I told 20 people....would you belive only 2 knew what the Enolay Gay was and what part it played in history !?!?!? Mind you.....none of them was younger than 25!

My hope is quickly fading........

I had a young lady of undergraduate age come up with this one during a class discussion of Cuba:

"If this Castro guy is so awful, how does he keep getting elected?"

I laughed out loud, but the scary thing is that no one else did.

well, if it makes you feel better, I'm 29. And so far, I know every one of those things you're talking about.

Then again, the Nixon Presidential Library IS 5 miles from my house, and my mom is a high school history teacher...

Scary stuff. One day, I was watching the History Channel with my then high school senior son, now 23. After watching awhile, turned to me and asked, "When were we ever at war wuth Japan"? He'd never been taught any of this in school. Talk about the dumbing down of America!

I was speechless. He is now a history buff, so there is hope.

History is wasted on the young. They just haven't experienced enough of life to appreciate its meaning. Be patient with them ... they'll learn soon enough. Yes, they'll cast some goofy votes until they "grow up", they'll think they have all the answers, they'll think they know what life is about, but eventually they will grow up. At least most of them do.

That is one of the reasons I've committed so much of my time to Scouting - both Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. My goal is to expose the boys and girls to as many experiences as possible and to provide them with a good moral base to start out with. The Scout Law says it all - "A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent." Experience, trial, failure, success - its all a key part of growing up.

I've often said that the miracle of children is that they are the closest thing we have to immortality. That is the amazing thing about being a parent. They - all of them - are our future!

--- Ha, I wrote this before seeeing ScoutMan's post. How fitting.

I just read on CNN.com that 1 in 4 people questioned (3000 in the survey) in England believe that Winston Churchill, Ghandi and Cleopatra are fictional characters, and many questioned believed that Sherlock Holmes is a real person - go figure?

Didn't somebody once say 'Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it' I suppose that appies to ignorane of the past as well.

Interesting, as a kid I remember taking a field trip to the movies to see “Tora, Tora, Tora” when we were studying WWII. Just watching old war movies (and even some of the new ones: Saving Private Ryan, Pearl Harbor, Code Talkers, Great Raid) should at least give you an idea of who was at war with whom and general sense of when.

Even the events of 911 are becoming a distant memory for so many.

Pete

I have on multiple occasions within the past few years mentioned Xenophon's March. Few knew anything about it, including some people with some advanced degrees from good universities, and even a professor with a philosphy Ph.D. And this shows how our teaching of everything has changed.

FWIW, Xenophon was a Greek who with a Greek mercenary force went to preseant-day Iraq, for a war involving two claimants to the Persian throne in about 401 B.C. One claimant died in the one battle of the war, and so the war was over. The Persians then acted to get rid of the Greeks. The Greeks eventually made it back to Greece.

Xenophon wrote the story and his version of the story was studied into the 19th Century by people learning Greek. If you knew any one with a university education in the 19th Century, you could make a good bet that they knew greek and that part of their study of Greek included reading Xenophon story of the March. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon.

Same thing goes for Cicero and people who studied Latin. These langauges were a a part of most university educations, prior to the 20th century. Now, few people know of these things because history has been written out of courses on other topics besides history. When we study language, we rarely study the historic writings of that language or anything to do with history.

Same goes for things we read for our own language. In the U.S., we rarely read things with any historical significance when we study English. Instead, students read mostly works of fiction with little or no history in them but which are written to invoke a theme or view point.

We are not a culture that respects history, because for the msot part, many do not wish to learn the lessons it has to teach. It is much easier to ignore these lessons, when knows nothing of it. For this same reason, you find people who do not prepare for potentially likely disasters, unlike most of the people who post here and have prepared to some extent.

Rather than lawyers, I think the majority of congress should
be historians.

After a few minutes of 'small talk' when a new neighbor came over to introduce himself, his reply to my mother's mention of being a history major was "All the history I need is in the Bible!" Needless to say, they did not become fast friends.

That is one of the most quotable statements I have ever heard!

American schools in the present atmosphere of what educating the young now means are the reason why when one thumbs through an American History Book, you'll find that George Washington has an entire paragraph dedicated to his life and history while Marilyn Monroe only gets a paltry PAGE!!!!

I've heard that they do not teach kids about the constitution anymore .

When I ask myself " whats the world coming to " I can't think of anything good . I'm not very optomistic about the future .

My father grew up in South Bend, Indiana. His father was a professor at Notre Dame and a good friend of Knute Rockne; my dad literally was bounced on Rockne's knee as child. In the 60's and even into the 70's I could tell that story and people didn't have blank expressions on their faces. Nowadays I get nothing but blank stares at the mention of Rockne (whose funeral was broadcast on national radio). But I think that's to be expected. Americans tend to look to the future not the past. We want to believe that the future will be better than even our own most recent past, not to mention our parents' or grandparents'.

I'm sure the curmudgeons among us will want to blame the school system or politicians or parents or somebdy for the sorry state of today's young people and their knowledge of the past. But I've been hearing this lament for 40 years and it's no worse now than it was in 1968. It's just not in our nature for most of us to get caught up in the details of the past. So, sure, we make some mistakes over and over again. But that's not education, that's human nature. There are lots of young people who can make all the connections to Billy Joel's song just as there lots of baby boomers who can't.

If anybody really wants to get me on a soapbox just bring up the subject of the "good 'ol days"... You think dial up Internet was bad? Trying talking to your girlfriend on a party line telephone!

Ask about Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, Midway, Normandy, Sputnik, Cuban Missile crisis, Bay of Pigs, etc, you will get the same blank stares...

"Americans tend to look to the future not the past...I've been hearing this lament for 40 years and it's no worse now than it was in 1968."

Americans are so future-oriented due to simple ignorance of the past, not because of any blissful view toward the future.

I was 18 in 1968. I knew about the British Empire, the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the opening of the American West, the Civil War, World War I, World War II, the Korean war, and got hit in the teeth with the Vietnam war. I knew music from the 30s, 40s, and 50s, plus some classical. Of course, I got most of it on my own, since I only got to finish high school. Most Americans seem to think that the attack on Pearl Harbor was unprovoked!

If you really want to see how poor the American educational system is, send your public-school-educated 12-year-old to Europe to continue his/her education. Your child will be so far behind that he/she will probably never catch up.

Tell me, do you think an educated population is easier for its government to fool, cheat and lie to, or an ignorant one?

Sue

'...send your public-school-educated 12-year-old to Europe to continue his/her education. Your child will be so far behind that he/she will probably never catch up..."

Or to Japan. Sad, but true....

Any of you ever watch Jay Leno. Especially his Jay Walking segment. Sure he only airs the stupid answers but really now. A couple of examples.

Just graduated history major. Couldn't answer questions about the founding fathers or the revolution. And on many was given hint that all but gavr her the answers.

A pair of grade school teachers that were very vague on WW II.

And so many more just as bad.

I'd take a bet that most of what people know about major historical events comes from big budget hollywood movies. IMO thats worse than not knowing anything.

Geez, this sounds like a thread tailor made for my input; just the sort of discussion I can sink my teeth into.

I will refrain, as I have no doubt most all of you by now will know what I have to say before I do. :}

I will interject one seemingly appropos line in the spirit of the Rockie and Bullwinkle show, "Que se ra, se ra", or "Are we not Spartans?"

This used to annoy the you know what out of me until I became a high school teacher. Although I teach Theology, not history, it's amazing how little my students know about anything in the humanities (philosphy, history, music, literature) and how little they know about their own faith. I place the blame on the system (too much self-esteem fluff and not enough emphasis on real achievement) and the parents (failing to turn off the computer, TV and game consoles).

I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of interest in reading. This year, I've turned off the TV (with exceptions for NFL, NHL, MLB games and select programs on the History, Discovery channels). My wife and I hit the local public library and pick up books to read every two weeks. I've discovered that my concentration is improving as well as an revived interest in learning as much as I can about everything.

I'll get off my soapbox. There is one upside - most of the books on history, philosophy and literature are never wait-listed at the library.

As a Pastor, it bothers me to hear this kind of "logic". One of the most effective ways I can relate a thought or idea is through the use of history. Even Christ Himself spoke of historical events that took place before He came into this world. Just so you know, your new neighbor doesn't speak for all of us.

Sue, I hope that we can respectfully agree to disagree on this. I too was 18 in 1968, and I too knew a lot about the subjects you mentioned. But so too do my kids who are 26 and 30 and who went to public schools. And I can tell you that at least one 12 year old went to school in Europe and wasn’t at a disadvantage, except when she returned to the US. My DD2 spent a semester in an international school in Paris. She learned a lot (mostly about wanting to travel) but it did not help to get ahead when she got back to the states. I’ve worked with the products of European and Japanese school systems and I give them no clear, overall advantage over the US kids I’ve hired. Kids who want to learn can get a heck of an education at the average public school in this country. The course selection in high schools today outstrips what I had. AP classes and such can earn kids college credit as sophomores in high school. My wife’s 3rd grade class is doing lessons I did in 4th and 5th grade.

But I don’t say all is perfect or even well. There are always improvements that can be made at all levels. Dropout rates are higher than they have been in a while. It’s getting harder to keep qualified teachers (most new teachers quit after 5 years) so as the older generation of experienced teachers retire, you won’t have a lot teachers with 15, 20 and 25 years of experience. That’s not good. Because good teachers motivate, good experienced teachers motivate and get results. But more kids are getting post high school educations, more women are getting science and math degrees, more colleges are starting to make humanities courses mandatory. And, believe or not, No Child Left Behind, is working as the percentage of kids performing at grade level is going up significantly.

That being said let me finish by saying that human nature isn’t dependent on nationality, race or creed. Motivated kids will learn and unmotivated kids will not regardless of the situation. The job of parents and teachers is to motivate them to enjoy learning and take it on as a life long task. Reading, as you have mentioned Sue, is the keystone but it doesn’t much matter if it’s classic books, wikipedia, blogs, or that bastion of power and corruption, the New York Times. Hopefully it’s all of the above and more.

Finally, I make a pledge to never address this issue again on these forums.

I'd like to ask - In what year did the standards of the Department of Education drop so as to allow that a degree in education was sufficient to teach at public schools? I'm curious.

"Pack of crazy fools....Listening to the young folks, nothing's good enough for them. Next thing you know, they'll be wanting to go back to living in caves, nobody work any more, live that way for a while. Used to be a saying about 'Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon.' First thing you know, we'd all be eating stewed chickweed and acorns."

+1 on Shirley Jackson!

-Blast

Mmmm...stewed chickweed and acorns.

+1 to Blast for the immediate literary source recognition.

It's not that they changed the standard. It's that they spend the last month on nothing but whats on the test.

Yeah, but in Japan, they will not learn about any of the things they did in China or Korea during WWII - total whitewash

What bugs me in history at my daughters school - she can tell you all about Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, MLK, etc - but she had NO idea who Grant or Sherman, or Ike were!

Spent about 3-4 nights correcting THOSE oversights - and periodically go over the eras in history that the school is supposidly teaching.

Teaching her about the Civil war was 'interesting' because I got to pull out copies of her Great-Great-Great-Grandfather's letters home from the war (He was a battlefield surgeon for the Union side) (I think I got the right number of Great's in there)

A few thoughts on history:

Some things don't change much. I'm reminded of a writer from something like 400 BCE proclaiming that the youth of his day are disrespectful, shallow, irreverent and how they are so much worse than his generation. I'm also reminded that even though 'kids today are weak' remains a perennial favorite song to sing we somehow seem to get down the road pretty well.

I also note that things happen for a reason. Castro was brought up. Castro is/was not a saint. But he is/was a big improvement over the guy he replaced. He didn't simply declare himself ruler. He rode to power on the shoulders of a popular revolution that was united behind bringing down a violent, corrupt and destructive regime.

Someone was quoted as saying that they thought the Enola Gay was a bar in SanFranscisco. That's one way to see it. I thought it was a B-29. Maybe both.

Samuel Clemons was supposed to have said that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.

On the survival side I note there are always the alarmists. Chicken Little souls who are sure that the next time it is 'The Big One'. Maybe it will be. But over the last few thousand years we have always gotten through it. It wasn't always pretty and there were many left behind but, as a whole, humanity has generally been able to get by.

Which tells me that it is pretty likely that no matter how bad things get in the future somebody has been through worse with less mental preparation and fewer material resources. Which means if your at least nominally mentally and physically prepared your odds are really quite good.

Hi Kc2ixe,



History is a vast subject, I suppose they can only teach so much in any detail. But if anyone is interested in WWII history and not the Hollywood version then this is the best place to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LLKv38kOrI

Yes - but they will go into amazing details of some Drummer Boy of one of the Union units - but won't mention Grant, Lee, the Battle of Gettysburg, Ft Sumter, etc - it's all the feel good PC history, and none of the big picture. Over the last 2 years, they have spent at LEAST 6 weeks, including 2 3 day field trips, on the Witch Trials.

The history they are getting in school is all the PC topics - and it's what they are getting tested on, but they won't even get to WWII (the cover all of WWII in 3 days) They spend 3 weeks on "the Indian Tribes of NY State"

Its not necessarily the amount of time spent on a period but the accuracy and quality of the information. Political correctness and historical revisionism kind of defeat the whole purpose of studying history. But its not surprising. Truth can't be manipulated and its usually painful.

Now now, that's "Native American tribes of New York State"

LOL