http://www.safetycentral.com/porutsurkit.html I live in a cold winter zone prone to blackouts.

I would want to know the BTU output of the heater. I would assume in a blackout your family would hunker down in one room to conserve energy. So my concern is how efficient the unit will be in keeping it warm. After the Northridge earthquake I brought a humble old 2 burner Coleman stove to my grandmother's damaged home. Her immediate nieghbors had resided together for over 40 years.That stove cooked hot food and coffee for 17 people for 3 days! I would price the items separately to cost compare. Offhand it looks like a nice unit with a common fuel supply.

My opinion: thumbs down.

As I recall, LP gas is mostly a mixture of butane and propane. The proportions graduate to higher concentrations of propane in colder climates (all the way up to essentially just propane) because butane does not vaporize very well at low altitude and below freezing temperatures. Butane and propane are liquified by compressing them, and butane liquifies at a lower pressure than propane. Hence one finds butane in disposable canisters that are not much stouter than an ordinary aeresol can. Disposable propane canisters, typically 1 lb net, are of stouter construction. In passing I'll observe that butane canisters sometimes do not reseal after being tapped and may leak out, whereas the disposable propane canisters employ a sort of schraeder valve and DO reseal nicely.

So my opinion is that if you want to lay in a heater/lantern/stove that are collectively simple to use, purchase ordinary propane camping gear. The disposable propane canisters are much less expensive than the butane canisters, are widely available all over US and Canada (at least), and hold a lot more fuel. Plus a hose to adapt from a bulk tank to the appliance gives you other options.

None of these appliances (the ones you asked about and the regular propane camping ones) are regulated - they use high-pressure gas straight from the tank. It is possible to purchase fairly compact regulated LPG stoves, lanterns, and heaters - that's what is used in campers/trailers/RVs. But they cost quite a bit more...

Depending on brand and exactly what you want, you can get propane lanterns for about $20 - $40, propane stoves for about $20-$80, and catalytic propane heaters for about $40 - $100. So you can get a lot more for your money than this kit, IMO.

The propane heaters are OK; they use a lot of fuel (go figure) and at best will have about 1/10 or less as much output as an average high-efficiency furnace - most have even less heat output. More heat output is possible from devices that mount on bulk tanks, but that's a lot of combustion byproduct in an unvented situation. In any event, drain water lines & tanks, freeze-proof traps with RV anti-freeze, suck into one room, and use applainces sparingly... and only when awake. It won't be like home, but it's nicer than a tent in the winter by a long shot. Earth-sheltered corner of a basement is less difficult than above ground in most cases.

I favor an older Primus brand 8,000 BTU/Hour model cat heater (probably still available) and Coleman for stoves and lanterns, but I don't recall using the heater in the house for anything other than radiant heat when bathing during an outage. Never have used the camping stoves during an outage because the household stove is natural gas. (not earthquake prone area) I don't see much benefit to single mantle lanterns and prefer the double mantle ones. They both can be throttled down to a bare glow to conserve fuel - except for one annoying model I've seen that is either off or on.

About now, P_L is rolling his eyes <grin> - he greatly favors kerosene appliances, and he DOES have some good points for you to consider. In my opinion, propane camping appliances are better for "forget until I need them" type use than kerosene appilances - but I won't argue the point too strenuously. You pick what works for you... but I don't think the kit is as good a value as what you could assemble on your own.

Regards,

Tom

>>About now, P_L is rolling his eyes <grin> - <<

I hate being that predictable. <grin>

I keep trying to weasel-word my opinions enough to make it clear to anyone that I wouldn't dream of telling someone how to prepare- it's their hide on the line, not mine, and my opinions are just that. I suspect that the reality is that anyone concerned and conscientious enough about survival to be researching the issues and asking questions on this forum will probably be just fine with whatever they end up choosing. Evidence seems to indicate that I still don't say it enough... people get their feathers ruffled, apparently just because I have opinions... but what else can we offer?

I'm not crazy about propane, but I'm no expert, either. We use it (sort of reluctantly) on the boat, with elaborate precautions to prevent any leaked gas, (which, like gasoline vapor, is heavier than air) from ending up in the bilge, where it could sit for months waiting to blow you to smithereens. I note that even on decks and patios, presumably well ventilated, occaisionally someone manages to blow themselves, their deck, or their house up with propane "gas grills", but I was frankly never interested in them enough to find out how they manage it.

I've always avoided the little proprietary cans of butane or propane for camping and hiking. Butane has problems at low temps- enough said. But with either, you're locked into one type, often hard to find, and if you run out, that's it. There's also no convenient way to "top off", you have to just let the things run to empty, which is annoying with a stove in the middle of cooking, but could be worse with a lantern at night, if it's your only source of light.

All that having been said, the liquid-gas stuff scares me less for use indoors than gasoline ("white gas", Coleman fuel). Decades ago I determined that I'd never use one of those stoves inside a tent, no matter how bad the conditions were outside- being covered in burning, melting nylon is a bad way to die- and I haven't regretted that. I've had two "flare ups" with backpacking stoves that scared me out of ever considering it. To be fair, I've never seen it happen with the typical Coleman two-burner green box or the typical mantle lanterns... but gasoline just doesn't seem appropriate for indoor use.

When I was researching Aladdin lamps before purchasing, this was drummed home. One of their biggest selling points, to farm households in the '20s, '30s and '40s, was that they didn't burn down houses like their pressurized gasoline cousins apparently did with fair regularity. Aladdin is still around- none of the companies selling pressuized white-gas lamps, stoves or heaters intended for indoor use survived.

Kerosene certainly has it's disadvantages, some of which I went into in a recent message... moslty that appliences tend to require more attention- but it's non-explosive, cheap, stores well, and you can get a wide variety of stoves, lamps, lanterns and heaters that use it, so you can distribute one fuel reserve in the way it's actually being used.

For a cheap, minimalist kit, you could combine an Alpaca kerosene heater/cookstove with a couple of Dietz lanterns and a 5-gallon can of kerosene, have heat enough for a small room, cooking and light, all for well under $150, and the 5 gallons would probably last for weeks... I bet a LOT longer than those cannisters... the weak liink being light, which from a lantern is ok for working by (much better than candles) but still pretty bad for reading. Add an admittedly expensive (starting at $70 or so), somewhat fussy and delicate Aladdin lamp, and you have excellent, steady, white, SILENT light about equivalent to a 60 watt bulb- luxury. Add a Kero-Sun heater for under $100 and you can expand operations to a much larger room, or two rooms, and life is beginning to look almost normal again. Top everything off in the daytime, and you never have to worry about it running out of fuel at night.

Even when there were thousands of people without power during ice storms, and you couldn't buy milk, bread, toilet paper, heaters, lanterns, batteries, flashlights, candles etc. etc. for love nor money, the rural gas stations still had plenty of kerosene to sell. With a crank radio and stored food, you might well be warm and cozy and fed, reading a book while listening to the news with one ear, idly wondering when the power might come back on, while your neighbors are abandoning their houses.

If you can, why not select "all of the above." I have both canned butane and bulk propane, as well as some white gas, and my stove can run on the unleaded gasoline that in my car. My mainstay for survival (California conditions - earthquake likely, but not extreme cold) is propane. P L is right about propane on a boat - it is extremely hazardous, but so is liquid gasoline. I really prefer refillable bulk propane cylinders - cheap, especially to refill, and relatively easy to service and maintain, but study up on this stuff. There are important safety practices that must be followed in order to avoid problems.

Basically I adapt my camping gear for at home, in place survival, and over the years I have acquired liquid fuel backpack stoves, Coleman two burners, superlightweight butane stoves, and alcohol stoves. I keep reasonably large stocks of fuel for most of these, since I am likely to encounter situatiosn where each would work best. But bulk propane will be my prime heat source when the Big One hits.

Good points, and our situation w.r.t. available equipment is very similar. It is astonishing how much gear accumulates... we keep a lot of primary fuels on hand (not stored in the house) for various reasons, one being purchasing economies. Fuels range from wood (direct labor, not purchased) on up to some "exotics"... and include at the core several bulk tanks, cases of 1 lb disposables, gallons of sealed/stabilized white gas, and so on. Secondary fuels, such as automotive gasoline, mineral spirits (parts washer), etc. are available but not a factor in anything I can imagine for our benign region of the country.

If we did not have ex-house storage and did not have gear on hand I'm not sure where we would start, but the gear our eldest has been slowly accumulating points towards conventional camping gear - which is more a reflection of lifestyle than anything else. I've thought about kerosene heaters from time to time and had a wick-type two burner stove years ago ("salvaged" at the curb somewhere down south, IIRC). Have always greatly admired Aladin lamps but for the life of me, I can't justify them for our circumstances. My few dalliances with kerosene helped me appreciate de-sulpherized kerosene, but in recent years appliance-grade kerosene all seems to be "odorless" - bulk or packaged (my buddy uses kerosene space heaters and a salamander in his garage/home shop).

My few uninformed observations (casual inspections at curbside) of kerosene appliances like heaters and stoves is that they seem to get rusty fuel tanks after a few years of (presumedly) infrequent use . While that's probably more of a case of inattention on the owner's part than anything else, it makes me wonder if there isn't someone who markets things to help mitigate that.

P_L, does anyone offer kerosene appliances with stainless steel reservoirs, some sort of in-tank fuel driers, or things like that? Seems like there would be quite a market, at least among informed buyers. Or maybe it's not a problem for folks... like I wrote, I don't have much first-hand knowledge on the topic.

The lantern and stove are available around here from Target stores at $25 for the lantern and $20 for the stove. Have not seen that particular heater, but Coleman makes a really good one (Blackcat, about $60) that uses less expensive 1# propane bottles available everywhere. The kit is way overpriced.

>>My few uninformed observations (casual inspections at curbside) of kerosene appliances like heaters and stoves is that they seem to get rusty fuel tanks after a few years of (presumedly) infrequent use .... P_L, does anyone offer kerosene appliances with stainless steel reservoirs, some sort of in-tank fuel driers, or things like that?<<

Not that I'm aware of... but I haven't checked Lehman's in awhile. The only stainless I've seen on kerosene stoves was on some versions intended for boating, and that's mostly about salt water- and salt air.

The problem seems to be that people tend to store the appliances (heaters, especially) filled. When stored in an unheated area (where else?), condensation forms in the closed tanks and starts rust. The heater manufacturers say to store the things empty with the tank cap off to prevent this- but emptying one is a hassle, so most people don't. It's not so bad if you have some sort of pump.

I keep the lanterns inside in the heated area, and ready to go (well, most of them), and a few are brass (which has other drawbacks). Some of the Czech and German lanterns can also be had in tinned versions. I've never seen nor heard of one in stainless.

Note that many of the old-timey wick-burner stoves had glass "tanks"- no corrosion. The thought of glass holding kerosene makes one a little nervous, but they seemed to be pretty heavy and thick.

I justified the Aladdin lamps by admitting that being holed up without any entertainment for days or weeks *without being able to read* was going to endanger my mental health. Two new ones I bought from a dealer who was going out of business and was willing to sell them at far below "list" (that took some research), and one is an old one that I bought cheap, tore down, cleaned, and rebuilt. They're all brass (the old one is bronze finished), so no corrosion worries there.

I haven't had odor problems with K1, except for a few moments after blowing a wick out. K2 (heating oil) is a different matter.