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#120035 - 01/14/08 03:33 PM more of the same
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
this time with a good outcome
Snowboarders lost in blizzard
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
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#120040 - 01/14/08 03:51 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
BruceZed Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 319
Loc: Canada
I believe a GPS would have caught the fact earlier that they were off course and pushed then back on course. If it had kept them on or near their course we would of never heard about the situation and they probably just spent an extra night in the woods.

They did well in in selecting a good shelter and using the local environment to its best advantage. "The couple built a snow cave, layering pine boughs on the ground and over the top of them, and huddled inside." The pine boughs where their best decision.
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Bruce Zawalsky
Chief Instructor
Boreal Wilderness Institute
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#120052 - 01/14/08 05:34 PM Re: more of the same [Re: BruceZed]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
I agree, as usual poor navigation was key to their entry to the world of survival. They took a sorta SW heading and drifted to the left of the course they wanted. Very basic GPS nav (Geko or basic eTrex) would have kept them on track. Once there they seemed to do well, kept their heads, did what needed to get done.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#120059 - 01/14/08 05:55 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
CSG Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Idaho
Their major screw-up was in not calling after the first night or even before the first night. They had a working cell phone and working signal. Weather might have gone a different way.

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#120125 - 01/14/08 10:13 PM Re: more of the same [Re: CSG]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
They discuss that in the interview. They didn't see a problem with staying out. They had provisions and thought they'd just walk out the next day. Only when they got low on food (candy/power bars) did they give up and make the 9-1-1 call. They used the phone wisely, turning it off when not in use so the battery didn't drain too quickly standing by. I think they did just fine.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#120141 - 01/14/08 11:27 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
No mention of firemaking equipment. Some hot drinks would have been nice, I'll bet. A metal cup with tinder, matches, Bic, firestarter, and some teabags, soup packet and cocoa mix inside it wouldn't have taken up all that much space.

And maybe a couple of cheap emergency blankets in their pockets

They were found Tuesday, probably after they didn't show up for work, and someone remembered that they mentioned going snowboarding somewhere.

I don't have much experience with blizzards. Do blizzards just come out of the blue? Most times we get snow, the weather people have some idea that it's coming. Listening to the radio before they got out of the car might have been a good idea.

They did okay. Not great. I would give them a 5.

Sue

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#120145 - 01/14/08 11:57 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Susan]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
Do blizzards just come out of the blue?
They can. Back in '93 the weather forecast was for a couple inches & we got 18 w/ drifts to three feet over a couple of days.

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#120170 - 01/15/08 02:00 AM Re: more of the same [Re: Susan]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
I get the impression from reading the report that they called the search themselves when they finally got around to dialing 9-1-1 Sunday after running low on food. Then the weather had to clear and they were picked up Tuesday.

As for fire, I agree. While the article doesn't say whether they had a capability to cook or even heat water, we can infer that they didn't have a capability to heat food because all they mention is Powerbars. Just being able to heat water for tea, soup and cocoa would be huge for morale and core warmth. Store your kit inside a Ti kettle. I'd bet their kit was very space/weight limited though since they were snowboarding.

That said, a blanket would have been good for the shared bodily warmth thing, and I'd have had a change of socks. But first I'd have had a small GPS with designated waypoints between my starting point and destination.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#120187 - 01/15/08 03:22 AM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3250
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Not your typical case, if I understand correctly.

They certainly met the pass/fail test very well. (Pass = alive and well.)

Given they were professional medical personnel, they were certainly capable of recognizing/avoiding dehydration and hypothermia. So they wouldn't call for rescue before they needed it.

As to a mountain blizzard, this can whip up pretty easily, and not with any specific warning. A bit of falling snow, a bit of wind to whip up loose powder, and all you know for sure is that you're on Planet Earth, somewhere north of the equator.

Compass and crude map would have helped, but you need to check the compass regularly before you need to navigate. I can't imagine carrying a GPS at a resort, but I've never carried one anyway, seems like dead weight.

My only thought (which I should apply to myself!) is that when you're in doubt, and have a cell phone signal, you call someone reliable and say "hey, we're okay, but a little turned around, here are the details just in case, if you don't hear back in 24 hours pull the SAR trigger."

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#120193 - 01/15/08 04:03 AM Re: more of the same [Re: dougwalkabout]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
Hardly dead weight considering they were snowboarding off the reservation. They were going cross-country through the backcountry to another location. Watch the interview video for a better idea of what they were attempting.

Btw, my Garmin Geko 301 weighs just a few ounces and has a baro altimeter inside. It runs about 12 hours on a pair of alkaline AAA's and can use lithiums if you want the extra runtime, lighter weight and better performance in the cold. It only has a small B&W display, but that's plenty for monitoring your position relative to predesignated waypoints.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

Top
#120231 - 01/15/08 04:12 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3250
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I see your point. No doubt about it, a GPS would have been useful to these folks.

The "dead weight" comment refers to my personal inclinations. I don't like the idea of being reliant on a complex, battery-operated tool to find my way home. And I don't like tech stuff separating me from the landscape, from the awareness of its flow and rhythm that slowly seeps into the mind as I walk.

If I took a GPS, I'd still be taking rough compass readings as backup, because I know the compass works, always. And if I'm doing that, why carry the GPS at all? Hence "dead weight" (for me). But maybe I'm all wet on this.

I see that prices and weights are coming down, and if I'm ever doing a trip in featureless bush, I may just spring for one.


Edited by dougwalkabout (01/15/08 04:20 PM)

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#120233 - 01/15/08 04:32 PM Re: more of the same [Re: dougwalkabout]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
I see your point. No doubt about it, a GPS would have been useful to these folks.

The "dead weight" comment refers to my personal inclinations. I don't like the idea of being reliant on a complex, battery-operated tool to find my way home. And I don't like tech stuff separating me from the landscape, from the awareness of its flow and rhythm that slowly seeps into the mind as I walk.

If I took a GPS, I'd still be taking rough compass readings as backup, because I know the compass works, always. And if I'm doing that, why carry the GPS at all? Hence "dead weight" (for me). But maybe I'm all wet on this.

I see that prices and weights are coming down, and if I'm ever doing a trip in featureless bush, I may just spring for one.


By definition a blizzard creates conditions where you can't see,
so a compass will help only in a general way and you would have
to be counting paces or using dead reckoning to really stay on course. In a winter ski environment that would leave you guessing
about the avalanche potential of the terrain around you. Any other
features (roads, streams, cliffs) may not be evident even when you
are standing on them. (One reason to stay put.)

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#120235 - 01/15/08 04:39 PM Re: more of the same [Re: dougwalkabout]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
Map and compass still work, but I saw a guy get lost using map and compass because he took a bearing on the wrong peak; based on that he turned down the wrong valley. It can be difficult to navigate off terrain features when the terrain mostly looks the same.

I look at the GPS as a reality check. While it's true that anything with batteries, circuits, et al can suffer catastrophic shutdown, 99% of the time they work just fine within limits of their battery life -- carry spares. I've never had one of my Garmins fail for anything but battery life.

Turn the Geko on, let it find the satellites and plot its position. Are you between waypoints or have you drifted right or left? How far to the next waypoint on what course? Done, shut off teh GPS to conserve the batteries and continue to navigate using the compass. Best of both old and new.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

Top
#120237 - 01/15/08 04:45 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2998
Its espically helpful when maps are not accurate, such as the road your on not being on the map or vice versa.

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#120241 - 01/15/08 04:56 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Eugene]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
Having read enough decisions and reports on collisions at sea, one thing that is often cited with being the cause of many incidents, such as groundings, is relying on "scanty" information. Taking a fix of one kind and not checking via another kind of site whether the fix is accurate.

When I was on a school ship, in the ancient past, we were sailing through the Carribean and obtained a satellite fix, on the old system. The satnav said that the satellite had low elevation, which means you shoudl question the fix it gives. About the same time, we obtained a fix using radar off a cay. The radar range and bearing put us west of the course line, while the satnav was close to the course line. Where were we? We didn't know. The officer who was supposed ot be in charge of the watch wanted to change course, but was willing to wait as I developed more information.

Looking at the chart there was a wreck on the far side of the cay. When I plotted the data from the radar fix from the wreck instead of the cay itself, the two fixes agreed. So, then the question was what was the radar fix off of? I located the correct copy of Sailing Directions which stated the wreck was often a better radar fix than the cay. We still didn't rely on any of this information, and we sought additional information. When we got it, a radar fix off the wreck and the sanav fix appeared to be correct. If we had changed course, the course change would have brought us nearer the cay and the shallower water around it.

If more information is available, get it and use it. Do not rely on scanty information.

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#120244 - 01/15/08 05:10 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Russ
Map and compass still work,


Not in blizzard conditions in all situations. Had an avalanche
fatality here a couple of years ago by someone off course by just
90 feet and skiing under a cornice. Most GPS are good to 20 feet
or better. Might have made all the difference to him.

Like Dan says, get lots of information if the situation is
hazardous.


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#120246 - 01/15/08 05:18 PM Re: more of the same [Re: clearwater]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
What software do you have that plots avalanche location data.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

Top
#120254 - 01/15/08 06:07 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: Russ
What software do you have that plots avalanche location data.


None.

Rule & of the Navigation Rules states: Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
It's a different contaxt but the principle applies.

You do not base decisions on scanty information, if you can avoid doing so. I'm with you in that I rarely use a GPS, for real navigation. When I do use it, it is almost exclusively to estimate the driving time to my destination.

When you are out in the middle of nowhere, you would not be wise if you rely solely on a GPS. If you cannot figure out how to navigate without the GPS, you are going to be in big trouble when it fails. But doesn't the same ring true when you cannot see the landmarks on the map?

When I went to sea, I used the satellites and took the celestial.


Edited by Dan_McI (01/15/08 06:08 PM)

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#120289 - 01/15/08 09:39 PM Re: more of the same [Re: Russ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Russ
What software do you have that plots avalanche location data.


Thats what maps are for, on the GPS or on paper. If you don't know
where you are on the map, due to weather conditions, you can't
avoid hazards. (ridges that may be corniced, slope angles that
are conducive to avalanche, runs shown on the topography, aspects with weak snow layers etc.)

And there have been some software programs that will print a map
with some of the variables that predict avalanche danger.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2710

http://sensoft.ca/applications/icesnow/casestudy/cs_avpredctn.html

Just a couple I googled.


Edited by clearwater (01/15/08 09:45 PM)

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