Good Morning fellow survival and gear junkies.

I have a confession to make, being one of the resident weirdos this should come as no surprise to any of you, but:

I love the metric system.


I was just reading an article in Time Magazine comparing the 72 Dolphins with the 2007 Patriots and noticed that they included the weights in kilograms as well as pounds.

I was excited to see metric data involved in our second most hallowed sport.

Given that:

1) The EU is going to ban metric and standard labeling on products sold in Europe in 2010 I think(including our products being sold overseas from what I understand). So I'm suspecting that many of our products are going to be metric only labeled to remain competative.

2) The only three nations in the world that still use standard are us, Burma, and Liberia.

3) Several of my favorite shows (Survivorman!!!) use reference to metric measurements for temp, etc.

How many of us have started using metric measurements in our calculations for our emergency preparedness/ hiking camping/ everyday usage?


I have switched my weatherbug read out on my computer to celsius to get used to thinking in those terms and am looking for a metric tape measure for work around the house, this years backpack trip I am going to make a metric one (calculating my pack weight, etc in grams/kilos rather than pounds).

See, to me, the metric system makes a LITTLE sense. I mean, not the distances (a meter? what the..? It uses a distance arbitrarily set at a fraction of said distance originally). But temperature (water freeze, water boil as the "endpoints) does make sense. Time is kind of screwy too, using radioisotope frequencies... but, yeah, whatever. Have to use something as the benchmark. Weight and volume are too interbred for my taste, but it makes conversion in one's head easier (1 liter of water is 1 kilogram)

I dunno, I guess it helped in science class, with the math. But there's too many fractions in everyday life for it to be practical. Really, why does a meter have to be used, when most things are fractions of a meter? Use a smaller measure as your standard unit.

Despite a college science major, a graduate science degree and a lot of science in high school, I still can't convert temperatures. But why'd the world have to change, instead of adopting the system used for centuries?

I began using the metric system in science class, and later during a career in archaeology, and I have over the years been looking for metric woodworking tools so I can use it around the house. It is the best thing since sliced bread (actually, I believe it precedes sliced bread....)

I don't have a good feel for the Celsius, but that will change as soon as I have to use it.

I don't understand your point about fractions. English measurement is rife with fractions, but they are non=existent in the metric system. In normal usage, you rarely need to measure anything beyond the nearest millimeter.

Luckily I was in school here when the metric system was introduced so I have no problems using metric or standard measurements and can convert or switch to each other on the fly and not get millimeters and 1/16's mixed up etc.

Yeah, if you break down inches, we get to sixteenths of an inch. But that's rare. Whereas with metric, everything is so bloody anal: 1.62 meters tall. 38.4 centigrade. 35 kilometers per hour.

Uh... 5'6. OK, so I'm off a quarter inch. Big deal.
101. Ok, yeah, it might really be 101.3, but only digital thermometers get that precise. 25mph... I don't have a good point on that one.

But unless you're in a scientific field (or maybe some construction jobs), it's too uptight. real life is good enough with rough estimates.

I was in Grade 8 when the metric system was introduced in Canada so I can work in Imperial and Metric.

It is odd but Canadians almost always use both systems.

Personal height and weight are usually referred to in Imperial, but temperature and distances are referred to in metric.

I still do contruction in Imperial because dimensional lumber is cut in the old standard sizes (e.g. 4' x 8' plywood).

There really are few fractions in the metric system. If something is smaller than a meter then you measure it in centimeters or millimeters if it is really small.

Water freezes at 0*c, boils at 100*c and a litre weighs one kilogram.

It is an odd system at first (like everything else that is new) but after a while it makes a lot of sense.

Mike

I'm with you on that one.

replacing a piece of trim that's 3' 3/16" wide and minus 1/4" for blade width....

That makes my brain hurt.

now its 15cm wide, minus 4mm for the blade and my piece is 14.6cm wide, now that's math I can wrap my brain around. (man, I hope I got that right because I'm going to look real stoopid if I'm wrong)



I don't try to convert back and forth.
< 0 = damned cold
0 - 10*C = Cold (ok, I'm from Louisiana)
10 - 20*C = Cool
20 - 30*C = Warm
> 30 = hot
> 40 = damned hot.

The way I think about it was when I learned Fahrenheit I had nothing to compare it to, and when the weatherman reports tomorrows forecast its always in terms of "highs in the low 70's, low's in the mid 30's"...

Hi samhain

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/index.html

a good website for explaining the System International SI or the Le Système international d'unités. (you can blame those French and Scottish Physicists I'm afraid)


The Celcuis temperature isn't strictly within the SI fundemental units but is derived from them. Thermodynamic temperature is measured in degrees Kelvin (K).

length meter = m
mass kilogram = kg
time second = s
electric current ampere = A
thermodynamic temperature = Kelvin K
amount of substance mole = mol
luminous intensity candela = cd

So from just these basic units of fundemental measurement even he mostcomplex physical measurement quantities such as electromagnetic inductance or thermal conductivity can be derived.

The problem with working with imperial measurements is that they soon become difficult to use when describing complex physical measurements. Fahrenheit temperature scale for example isn't related to any physical quantity and is almost arbitrary. The one description I like the best to describe how the scale works is;

'A seventh version maintains that the coldest temperature he could achieve in the lab was designated with 0 degrees, and the melting point of butter was 100 degrees'



well this is easy the answer is 2' 11 15/16", its just that most folks have forgotten how to do fractional arithmetic because of the use of calculators. But then again most people don't know how many rods are in a furlong or how many pecks are in a bushel. Making measurements of physical quantities such as electromagnetic inductance using imperial measurements soon turns into a nightmare.

14.6cm = 146mm is spot on BTW.



This ban isn't going to happen anytime soon in the UK for reasons of national politics I'm afraid.

I like the metric system. It seems to me to be more logical to let the physical constants and reality to set the basic units. Unfortunately after the French revolution, when they were standardizing the metric system, they screwed up the meter because they used the wrong figure for the diameter of the earth wrong. D'oh.

Still, the metric system makes more sense.

Unfortunately I grew up with the imperial system and I still 'feel' the imperial system in my gut. I know what 63F feels like. Tell me 17C and I have to think it through. I would never walk out the door and declare: 'It feels like 17C to me'.

I can estimate in inches by eye or using my hands. I seldom miss it by more than an eighth. Tell me 120 mm and I have to mentally convert to imperial and then estimate.

I always thought so too until I learned binary.

Can't say that i don't understand the metric system i just don't think in metric. If you have trouble with fractions just use the decimal equivalent. Instead of 1/4 just use .250, have worked in machine shops long enough that i think that way anyhow. Engineering rules (read in tenth's and hundredth's) are available, or at least easier to find than all metric rules.

Am curious about the push in Europe to enforce the metric system. I know in certain industries there is some degree of worldwide standardization, but just because everyone is using the metric system doesn't mean that there will be standardization in everything. Yes i know that a millimeter is a millimeter the world over, but in the mechanical world there are a number of different standards. If you need a 10mm bolt is it threaded in Japanese standard or French?

Maybe is just a conspiracy by the measuring tool companies of the world to make money selling new rulers. Working in a machine shop i routinley measure to .0254mm (.001") and use thousands of dollars worth of measuring instruments that only read in standard measurements. Converting to a new measuring system would be very expensive. How much cost has been past on to consumers in the conversion to metric?

With the EU banning the sale of packaging in standard measure does that mean when someone needs a fastener for an old MG they would have to purchase a package labeled 12.7mm x 2.11 instead of 1/2 x 12 whitworth to be legal?

"...replacing a piece of trim that's 3' 3/16" wide and minus 1/4" for blade width...."

Why in the world would you include glade WIDTH in any measurement???

You got it. You want metric, go to a metric country. Don't try to convert me/my country, we are pretty much happy with what we got...

One more time, how long is a cubit?

Cubt=elbow to finger tips. Not exactly the most precise way to measure since we do not all have the same size ruler.

It makes sense to learn and use metric

Think about it:

Quick, add these lengths:

1/2 + 11/16 + 3/4 + 2/3

or

.123 + .565 + .321 + .978

Which is easiest? And, very importantly - which is least error prone? Error measurements can cost you alot of money in some situations, or even your life.

This applies to volume measurements also.

Finally, you guys are all going to go metric over there

It might be easier to do that math, but how difficult is it really? I think I can handle the calculations fairly easily in either system.

What I think it more difficult to switch is judgment. When you are judging distance and communicating it to someone, speaking to them in terms they understand is key. When I worked afloat, telling someone they were "ten feet" off or in a certain direction communicated something they understoood. Three meters was something that would have required them to think.

Either system works and converting from one to the other is simple enough. Converting our brian waves to think in meters is not so simple. It's like elarnign to think in a new language. I can speak a language besides English to some extent, but my brian will not think in anything else. We would need to be immersed in the mertic system to be able to think in it, and there would be a difficult time of adjustment.

GO PATRIOTS!!! WOO HOO.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Your Pal,

Blitz

Alabama already tried it. They now have a bunch of speed limit signs after they had to go back & replace them with the old signs.

Now take a look at energy, force, and pressure. English units are quoted in obvious units, (psi or psf). Metric pressure is in quoted in Pa, kPa, newtons/sq m, newtons/sq.....)

You mean to tell me that a newton is not a cookie filled with jam?


I recall newtons and many of the other units from taking physics years ago. But If you want me to describe a force exerted in terms of Newtons, or understand such a description, without doing some math I simply cannot. If you tell me foot-pounds, however, I will get the idea.

Great Googlie Mooglie. I'm still getting used to metric and you want me to convert to binary!?!?

I'm old and tired but willing enough to keep working on thinking in metric but there are limits to what I can wrap my ossified brain around and get comfortably and casual with. I learned some of the basics of working with binary but it was like typing with my nose. I can do it but not easily or quickly.

Hi UTAlumnus

Pressure or stress is normally measured in Pascals. 1 Pascal can be expressed as 1 Newton per metre squared. 1 Newton = 1 kilogram metre per second squared.
Therefore 1 Pascal = 1 kilogram per metre second squared.

All the SI dervived units such as resistance (ohms), magnetic flux (webers) etc can be reduced down to expressions of the SI base units of measurement.

length meter = m
mass kilogram = kg
time second = s
electric current ampere = A
thermodynamic temperature = Kelvin K
amount of substance mole = mol
luminous intensity candela = cd

Each SI base unit is a fundemental reference value and is extremely accurate and precise.

This is what makes the SI system so universal in regards to scientific measurements as all calculations are base 10 not base 12, 9, 16, 8 etc or combintations of each as in the imperial system of measurement. 10 squared = 100 and 10 cubed = 1000.

The ratio between psi and psf is 144 (12 times 12 i.e 12 squared) whereas the ratio between Pa and kPa is 1000 (the k indicates 1000 and M would indicates 1 million i.e MPa = 1 Million Pa)

My point exactly. The authors of text books & professors swap them around by course. One uses kPa where the next may use Newtons/sq. meter.

I'm gettin' a headache again...

3.79 liters of milk
1 gallon of milk
Jug of milk.

"...Jug of milk..."

Big jug and little jug, that is all we need...

With all the empirically derived functions, ratios don't bother me. Its when they use four different names for the same quality.

I learned metric in school too, while overseas. But I have mixed feelings about metric. 12 inches to a foot is easily divided by 3, 4 and 6. 1 pint of water=1 pound, so 1 gallon=8pounds. I find it to be a much more "ergonomic" measurement system. For building things, I really like Imperial measurements.

But through chemistry and engineering classes I've also learned to appreciate metric measurements. Except for things like stress and pressure, I don't really think either system is more or less confusing.

I don't think we need to CONVERT to metric at all.

I know a guy, he's a helo pilot in the marines, he's also a major computer geek. He's been to Iraq a zillion times....

We were chatting about stuff, and he mentioned that he had to walk 12 kilometers in the desert in iraq, and it was miserable - I asked him, "How far is that?" and he said, "I just told you, 12 kilometers. Don't convert, just learn how long a kilometer is, and leave it at that."

That's when I realized that it's CONVERTING to metric that's the problem - so don't. Some things are metric, some aren't. That's OK.

I already have a few "everyday" metric moments:

9MM - I know that one!
5.56MM too!

1 Liter of Soda, 1/2 Liter of Wine

The bolt on the bar of my chainsaw: 12mm

I admit that distance is still not so strong for me. I really don't "know" what a kilometer feels like to walk, compared to a mile.

I would prefer measurements in milimeters, especially since I'm currently remodeling a bathroom....

Let's see, the 2x4 is nominally 3-1/2" but these are actually 3-7/16" deep, the wallboard is 1/2" and then a 1/4" mortar allowance, and a 3/16" thick, tile, the valve needs 11/16" projection from the finished surface, and sets back from the edge 2x4 1-5/16", so what time is it in London at noon?

Do we really need a faucet for this tub?

1 Kilometre is near enough about 5 Furlongs. (just over by about a 3 Roman Paces)




1 pint (Imperial) of water is 0.568 litres and the density of pure water at 4C is 1 kg/litre then 1 pint of water weighs 0.568Kg

1 pound is actually 0.454 kg, so there is a considerable error of 0.114kg = 1/4 lb approx error or nearly 25%

1 Pint (US) = 473.176475 ml = 0.473 kg compared to 0.454 Kg.

1 Gallon (Imperial) = 4.546 litres = 4.546 kg. 8lbs = 3.632 Kg (again a considerable error)

1 Gallon (US) = 3.785 litres = 3.785 kg. 8lbs = 3.632 Kg (much nearer when using US rather than Imperial measurements)

It can sometimes get confusing as Imperial measurements are the same for US when it comes to weight measurements but different when volumes of liquids are measured.

I think it's closer to 5 cables than 5 furlongs.

There are simply too many rarely used units of distance.

I once had a chemistry teacher that imposed alternative measurement systems. One use for velocity was "furlongs per fortnight". "Flyweight" and "stone" were two of the weight standards.

Being forced to use alternative systems helped point out that measurements and science works in any consistently applied measurement system. Some are systems are less bulky than others but they all work.

"...I really don't "know" what a kilometer feels like to walk, compared to a mile..."

It's a lot easier...

I like that! Furlongs/fortnight.

Another reason I didn't like the units in my zillions of science classes were too many blasted fractions in the darn definitions of units! Yeah, I admit that foot-pounds and horsepower don't make much sense if you really try to break them down, but Joules, kPa, Torr and kg/m/sec don't help either. Like, well, shouldn't the last one really be (kgxsec)/m? The 'per' really threw me off for a year, and that's just to define what the unit is trying to measure!

Anyway, a kilometer feels like half a mile, ish. I'm actually OK with km simply because I was in cross country in high school. A 5km race is 3.1 miles. Which was too long, mainly cuz I was a track boy that did XC only to stay in shape off season.

Edit: Come to think of it, I have friends in the UK that use "stone" to refer to the weight of a person.

This thread makes my brain ache.

Reminds me of my friend who used to run marathons. One time she ran past a runner who was dragging his socks and wiped out mentally. He asked her much further it was, her reply was 10 km. The guy almost tainted when he heard this as in his worn out state he did not know that 10 km was only about 6 miles. Once she explained to him it was only six miles, he picked up the pace and finished in a good time...

Welcome to my world...

How about hands for measuring the height of a horse?

It's obviously a myth that it's easier to count in 10s! So why would anyone go metric? :-)
Ignore any tales from the UK about forcible metrication, the papers just make them up.
The Sock

I prefer binary its easier to count to one than it is to count to 10

I've started switching some of my projects over, for example the bracket I made to mount the battery isolator in my truck I measured in metric and used metric bolts since I figured everything else in the truck is metric anyway.
This didn't cost me any extra since I don't have a lot of metal working tools I was buying the tap and bolts and stuff anyway, those that have non metric stuff already would have to re-buy a lot of tools but me buying for the first time it didn't cost me any extra.
I have learned that when you do work with metal in the metric system you have to overbuild a little more. Metric bolts have a different thread pattern than SAE and it makes them weaker so you have to go up a size. Seems like one of those instances where they decied to make it different just to be different even though its not as good.

The biggest advantage and disadvantage of the metric system is the decimal part!

I'm serious! Doing math with the metric system (or even 100ths of inches like we do in machining) is great - with measuring tools

Now - I give you a sheet of paper - let's say I want you to fold it into 10ths - good luck - In the mean time, I'll give you a fraction of 2 easily (and computers like binary...)

Some of those "odd ball" measurements are "english" 10x measurements - for instance - 1 acre is 10 square chains - and 10 chains = 1/8th of a mile. At least around here, a "standard" street is 66ft wide - aka 1 chain

BTW 10 chains = 1 furlong - so one furlong X 1 chain = 1 acre, or 1 furlongx1furlong = 10 acres

It all comes down to logical devision of square miles (sections) into smaller units - or even "townships" (36 square miles)