The problems with bugging out:

Under Martial Law conditions-
1) Slow movement due to the need to remain concealed from law enforcement and military units (avoid being forced into a "Refugee Camp").

2) Slow movement due to need to avoid "Brigands".

3) Forced to leave food and other resources behind. (if local authorities hadn't already been informed of your "hoarding" and seized it already).
3a) "Hoard" the majority of food and resources at the bug out location.

4) The need to maintain a 24/7 security/defensive watch/tactics while on the move and in encampment.


Without Martial Law restrictions:
1) Slow movement due to need to avoid "Brigands".

2) Forced to leave food and other resources behind. (if local authorities hadn't already been informed of your "hoarding" and seized it already or from lack of carrying capacity).
2a) "Hoard" the majority of food and resources at the bug out location.

3) The need to maintain a 24/7 security/defensive watch/tactics while on the move and in encampment.

What other hazards does bugging out under a semi-hostile environment incur?

The cart's before the horse. Could you define Martial Law Conditions.

I'll define Martial Law as I saw it carried out under Katrina conditions:

1) No open possession of firearms
2) No movement after dark
3) No "groups" of citizens (more than 3) ever
4) etc, etc.

You can add to this: cops/soldiers/etc. can take from you whatever you have, for any reason. Any disobedience will be met with force and/or relocation (sans gear).

Basically, suspension of constitutional amendments--no one will argue your right to be "free" as long as you do what they say

Mine isn't a legal definition, but a practical one:

You have infantry and armoured vehicles patrolling the streets and securing "critical points", with civilian law enforcement either out of the picture or reduced to a secondary force. And if someone in uniform decides to arrest you, they do- if they decide you are resisting, you are. And the courts don't get a hell of a lot to say about it until MAYBE long after.

Remember, cops aren't soldiers; soldiers aren't cops. Soldiers do not know nor care a whole lot about the law, only maintaining order on the principle that when things are out of order they are in danger. And no offense to anyone here, but I've known a lot of Gaurdies (who would be among the mostly likely troops called out for ML) who I don't trust with a loaded baseball bat, much less a rifle. If seeing infantry on the street of an American town doesn't scare the poop out of you, it should.

Need to know the circumstances that brought out this martial law.
Was it a hurricane as Billy has mention? Or a Tsunami in the Pacific or Indonesia. An earthquake like in San Fransisco? Or an erupting volcano like Mt ST. Helen? How about a riot in Los Angles that happened many years ago?

Agreed, and I would be offended if I hadn't spent more than half my time on active duty

--Former Guardie

At least they're not as bad as the "La Guardia" of certain South American countries...

Along with the guys I don't trust with a baseball bat, I know a lot of guys in the Guard I'd trust with the lives of those who are important to me. I'm just saying there are some sketchy people who are a war crime waiting to happen.

And I've had friends who are in the Guard and Reserve, and even active duty, who've told me they are afraid of what would happen if a "peace support operation" was to be conducted in the States right now. They consider it a given that if it were to happen at this moment, there would be bad results.

Okay so now we have an idea of what martial law means regarding who, but what are they really doing? As for the original question: While all of the above may be true, I don't think that any of the above is necessarily true, although 4) is always a good idea regardless. As always, if you're going to bug-out, do so early.

As someone who was in LA in '92, I can give a little input.
One, as we saw there, the Guard was overwhelmed immediately and would have required at least another week to move enough assets into the area. We (thew active Army and Marines) were ordered to immediately move in and enforce the declaration of martial law. Which we did. As I remember, the only ones that got their rights stepped on, were the doofus gang bangers that took pot shots at us...Up armored HMMWV w M60 machinegun vs lowrider w Tec-9 ..... you do the math!
There, the Gulf Coast, and here in Iraq, we have had no orders respecting hoarding. Privately owned and legal weapons in the US were fine as long as they were in your home or business, regardless of how many. We even let numerous people go with concealed carry with legal permits, or on a case by case basis.
Of course here, we only allow 1 AK per home.

By the way, we hate being there more that you hate us being there, we just want to get back home with as little fuss as possible... intact preferably. We are'nt cops, by a long shot!

Cheers

Hint: Bug out before martial law sets in.
Supportive fact: They want to enslave you.
Method: Prepare now!

[quote=wildman800]The problems with bugging out:

Under Martial Law conditions-
1) Slow movement due to the need to remain concealed from law enforcement and military units (avoid being forced into a "Refugee Camp").

I happen to be professionally involved in disaster mitigation/response at the federal level, as a member of a Disaster Medical Assistance Team, under US Dep't of Health and Human Services. I've never encountered any plans to "force" anyone into refugee "camps."

The basic theory of shelter management is to get people OUT as soon as possible, back to their jobs and coping with their own problems, to re-start the local economy and get things up and running as normally and quickly as possible

2) Slow movement due to need to avoid "Brigands".

Try not to look like a brigand yourself, i.e., by not going around in groups with heavy arms on display, in neighborhoods where you are not known. My personal gear and bugout clothing is "low observable" but not "tactical" in appearance. I can defend myself or hide out and get by without trouble, but I can also walk into a store or get on a bus without looking out of place.

3) Forced to leave food and other resources behind. (if local authorities hadn't already been informed of your "hoarding" and seized it already).
3a) "Hoard" the majority of food and resources at the bug out location.

There is really no need to seize personal property, nor any method formally to do so. It would really complicate logistics, too. If we need supplies not in our logistics train, we have corporate agreements to draw on commercial distribution channels, wharehouses and retail outlets in or near the effected area, with means for reimbursement. This is how it's done. Our commander even carries a federal credit card for impromptu expenses, to PAY for what we need.

On other occasions, local stores and hospitals who's inventories were a total insurance write-off have granted permission for us to salvage some things that would othewise just be dumped. These methods are far more efficient and legally proper than going door to door, hunting for and stealing from the vitims we are trying to help. I'm aware of the NOPD and scattered instances of individuals "freelancing" under color of authority, but criminals can be found anywhere.

4) The need to maintain a 24/7 security/defensive watch/tactics while on the move and in encampment.

ALways. Just don't be too paranoid or agressive about it. I could tell you a story about a certain "militia" group's unpleasant encounter, but, um, I'm not allowed to.


Jeff

I am with Troglodyte. I don't think we need to experience firsthand, what Jeff McCann says, "the NOPD...scattered instances of individuals "freelancing" under color of authority."

Police officers and members of military are trained to obey orders, even if the person (criminal) directing them is a little off the rocker.

Good luck.

“What Jeff says all sounds pretty good, but I think what most people are afraid of here is something like Katrina, not something like riots where you'll quell the violence and go home."

I was deployed to Katrina, as well as to a variety of other events and potential events, some you never heard of. The events surrounding H. Katrina were hideously misreported, both by wild exaggeration and hysteria or lying, and by non-or-underreporting. What happened to those stacks of dead bodies reportedly at the Superdome? They didn’t exist.

Remember, the actual hurricane was pretty much a miss, and the real trouble only started later, when the levees broke. This, plus a severe instance of the usual political fumbling, led to a poor coordinated and delayed federal response. Nonetheless, within hours ( >72 hrs) assistance was flowing in full throttle. Thereafter, no one died of thirst or hunger, and the shelter fiasco was pretty quickly sorted out. My team treated over 2K patients over a period of a few days. Furthermore, we can sustain operations indefinitely by drawing on our own and other federal resources, military logistics (we cross-train directly with the military), and commercial sources. Nonetheless, we were all loaded, ready and just sitting around waiting for the go order to deploy for days before being ordered in. This was in sharp contrast to the FL series of hurricanes, where our and several other teams were staged in place or on the road before the hurricanes even made landfall.

The Feds, at the boots on the ground level, did a great job, in the face of tough interference and massive political stonewalling, grandstanding and gross incompetence at the political level. For instance, three of our logistics trucks, still loaded with much needed equipment, were pulled away for hours for an “emergency elsewhere” that turned out to be a Presidential photo-op to show him posing in front of “federal trucks full of supplies headed to those in need.” I need not further point out the infuriating irony of creating the appearance of delivering help by removing help that was already in place.

The point isn’t to defend the Feds, but to point out that disaster relief on a very large scale was delivered and disbursed fairly promptly, because the professionals are used to overcoming obstacles of both the natural and man-made (political) types.

For example, if Wal-Mart can keep the shelves stocked all over the country every day, they can certainly deliver some of the same goods to a distribution center set up on the margin of a disaster zone, even if we have to set up an armed convoy and fuel depot system for them. The same is true for the military. Even with the war in Iraq, there were enough MREs, trucks and helicopters on hand for domestic emergency use.

As for local cops going rogue, I seriously doubt that anything similar could happen within the National Disaster Medical System or related services. We have no problem saying NO to wrong or stupid ideas, and anyone who puts a toe over the line gets dealt with pretty quickly. Although a “uniformed service of the United States,” we are just civilians, like you, and are free to quit and walk away at any time, and we will. We, most of us, simply will not tolerate the quasi-totalitarian “martial law” scenario imagined and feared by some. Heck, when I was once sent into a wrecked and flooded hospital to scavenge one particular instrument that we didn’t carry but was requested by one of my doc’s, I personally rechecked consent with both my command staff and the hospital’s representative personally before I’d proceed. In another instance, we had corporate permission to retrieve some convenience items from a wrecked chain pharmacy, and ran across some “looters” inside. We just warned them not to mess with us, take only needed items, which was all they seemed to be doing, and we left each other otherwise unmolested.

Really, really, really, we are just there to help people in need, and not to screw with them, take over, or interfere with private efforts to cope and recover.

I promise we won’t be raiding your cache, putting you into camps against you will, or taking anyone’s lawfully owned firearms. Our security element probably won’t let you into our base of operations with a gun if you’re a civilian, or might arrest you if you do something criminally stupid, but they’re only there to protect us and the people we are helping. They aren’t jack-booted thugs.

There does, indeed, seem to be a lot of mythinformation and misguided fear out there about the scope and nature of disaster relief operations.

“Or lets say something like a national gas shortage or truck drivers union strike, where supplies aren't being delivered and the stores are empty. A credit card doesn't do you any good if there is no food to be purchased. What's the protocol for that?”

The country will cope. If the entire nation suffers extremely severe disruption everywhere at once, I suppose things may be quite different, as they would be in the case of civil insurrection. However, there are sufficient legal means to deal with lesser threats like trucker strikes that threaten national security, and the trucks can be made to roll enough to deliver essentials. As for the credit card, it is used to purchase immediate special needs from just outside the disaster area. Now, if it’s an “End of the Earth as we know it” scenario you posit, then that’s beyond the scope of disaster relief and into the realm of rebuilding civilization, or at least civil society.

Jeff

"I am with Troglodyte. I don't think we need to experience firsthand, what Jeff McCann says, "the NOPD...scattered instances of individuals "freelancing" under color of authority."

It doesn't take a disaster to experience this sort of thing; it happens every day, all over America. By the same token, a disaster won't stop it from continuing to occur anyway. But that doesn't mean there's a secret plan to "enslave" you, or at least not one involving disaster relief operations in the normal course of events.

"Police officers and members of military are trained to obey orders, even if the person (criminal) directing them is a little off the rocker."

Cops and soldiers don't run disaster relief, they are, however, key participants, just as in most emergencies. Civilian authorities run the show, including local and state authorities who retain their powers and responsibilities, with the cooperation of federal authorities. Disasters normally don't get "federalized," with the USGOV taking over and overriding the locals; they just get federal assistance to states and localities, AFTER being requested.

As for the NOPD specifically, I'd suggest that they may have been, ahem, somewhat sub-par compared to other police departments and law-enforcement agencies. Yet, note that they still were not interfered with by the Feds during that time.

Now, if you are talking "Martial Law," that's an entirely different matter. But has Martial Law ever been declared in the US since WWII, when it was imposed in the Hawaiian islands, during any sort of disaster?

Jeff

For the record, NOLA wasn't under Martial Law, at least not since Reconstruction.

Jeff

No disrespect intended, But LA was never under Martial Law. The CA Governer requested the CA NG to assist local law enforcement under his own state emergency authority, then requested (very temporary) federal assistance (again, under state authority) when the CA NG proved too slow to mobilize in this instance.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you for your work. It's very reassuring to me that there are people like you out there trying to help.

-Blast, who hopes only to meet you under pleasent circumstances.

Indeed. If you see us setting up the khaki tents with the big red "NDMS" on it in your town, it's a safe bet you and your neighbors are having a pretty bad day.

Jeff
for more info on DMATs, NDMS, etc., see, e.g.:
http://www.floridaonedmat.com/
http://www.hhs.gov/aspr/opeo/ndms/teams/

With their ability to respond quickly and cost effectively, understanding the future role(s) private security companies (blackwater, armourgroup, etc.) will play in emergency situations is something thats worth looking into. On one hand you could get a lightning quick response to restore order in a stricken area should the local/state law enforcement be overwhelmed. On the other hand, determining their authority and who they'd be accountable to would give rise to some difficult questions.

A very worrisome possibility. It appears some such private security forces were afoot in the NOLA area after H. Katrina, but it seems to have been kept pretty quiet. None, AFAIK, were employed by government entities. Rather, they were employed by private businesses concerned over the breakdon in law and order and the need to protect their own personnel and assets.

It would be difficult to invision exactly how such firms could be employed to "restore order" in some legally meaningful way, though. Certain government functions are rather difficult to contract out, especially during emergencies. It's much quicker and eisier to just borrow cops from neighboring jurisdictions, states and NG MP units, and let the feds reimburse you for it.

They could be used, though, to relieve local LEOs and Guardsman for more important actual policing tasks, i.e., "restoring order," by taking over "security guard" type duties typically performed by law enforcement officers, such as maintaining (vs. "restoring") order and physical security at shelters, depots, government offices, etc.

In other roles, such as supply, shelter operations, transportation, logistics, etc., such private firms lack the resources, equipment and expertise required, or there are far better sources to get the job done already available.

Jeff

Please set me straight if I am misreading your statement, but it sounds like you are not aware that Blackwater and AmourGroup were in NOLA right after Katrina. For example, this article.

I found it a bit disturbing in Katrina. Although the particular Washington Post article I referenced only mentioned that the contractors carried sidearms, other news articles from that time mentioned that they were heavily armed (well, like with M4's and body armor, not heavy machine guns). Some had even recently returned from tours in Iraq, and heaven only knows what kind of reflexes and responses you developed from being over there. In one article, one Blackwater contractor flashed a badge at the reporter and said that they'd all just been federally "deputized"--whatever that meant in this case and no one would say what agency deputized them. Could they arrest people? No one said. Anyway, it sounded like a recipe for disaster to me at the time.

Thanks for bringing this point up, Jeff. The popular image of what happened during Katrina is very distorted, particularly the part about the alleged level of violence and mayhem. I don't think most people are aware that major news outfits like the Times-Picayune and LA Times later reported that most of what they initially published about Katrina was wrong, unsubstantiated rumors, or gross exaggerations.

No I'm aware they were there, but I couldn't find out exactly what their responsibilities were from the articles I've read. Due to the "success" of their deplyment in NOLA, even though there are lingering questions about their authority/accountability, I'm wondering if current crisis management plans now include using these groups as part of the immediate response. Just like its cheaper and easier to hire an armed security guard at the grocery store vs. an off duty LEO, (no unions, etc) I'm sure its cheaper (and less time consuming) for a company like blackwater to police a neighborhood for the first 48 hrs. after a disaster than it would be to call in resources from neighboring counties and states. And not to mention, when the crisis is over, state/fed. agencies must deal with a whole new issue of getting those resources and personnel back to where they belong as quickly as possible. With a private company, they don't have to worry about any of that. And, in their re-election campaign, politicians can brag about how much money they saved the taxpayer. Okay, that last part was a joke, sort of. I'm not saying its a good idea but considering the cost and ease of use, I think private policing is here to stay.

Other than NOLA after H. Katrina, I've never seen any shortage of LEO types at any disaster. Indeed, quite the opposite seems to be the usual case.

We emergency services folks usually like the overtime pay, and being on-duty usually means access to hot chow, showers and other amenities not so easy to come by off-duty for the local emergency services folks. The non-local folks include a plethera of Federal LEO types from innumerable alphabet soup agencies (FBI, FPS, DOJ, BOP, ICE, etc.), as well as the aforementioned people "borrowed," at federal expense, from nearby local and state jurisdictions.

Moreover, the feds reimburse local and state governments for the OT. Personally, there is even reimbursement for OT costs available to my regular employer while I'm deployed, and of course I get a federal paycheck while federally activated.

I don't really see a need for private spooks to do policing, when Sheriff Bubba's off duty guys and gals can be put on the clock, and he can just pick up the phone and have Sheriff Cletus send over a bunch of his deputies, too. Remember, any local, county, or state LEO is ALWAYS an LEO, trained according to that state's standards, ANYWHERE in that state, at least under most state laws. So there's no legal problem with authority or jurisdiction, nor usually one with training, standards, orientation, communications, procedures, etc.

Jeff

OK, good point, but that was about as close as you can get without declaring it, and it definitely carried all the vestiges of martial law. Being from that town, it needed it for a couple more weeks after we got the order to move out...

Any form of smoke (cooking, warmth, etc.) will draw the kind of people that you don't want around you. Although it may also draw those genuinely seeking help, and ready to do what they can to assist you. But you should be VERY careful about fire at all under these circumstance until you are a good distance from those you belive may be interested in doing you harm...and I would maintain some kind of watch even after that.

As far as soldiers vs cops, I have been both. Cops are trained (and I mean trained) to trick you into giving up your constitutional rights. I am not saying that they are all bad, but that is just the simple truth of it. Soldiers do what they are told. If they are told that no one is allowed to walk around after dark, then they do their best to make sure no one is walking around after dark, and so on. Either way, both would be a threat to you, the person attempting to leave a quarantined area, and not your friend. At least if you have any advantage over your fellow citizens. That is to say that if you are more prepared than they are, your supplies will be readily taken from you to "help" everyone. Reminds me of welfare and social security.

I don't think the circumstances surrounding the ML would matter all that much, other than determining what you might be trying to carry out with you, if it is there, you will be pulled into the crowd, and if you resist, well...

I think Russ makes one of the best points, if you see something coming that is a genuine threat, try to get out before there is a mad rush, ie. Hurricain Katrina. And while all of the things that the government could do may not be done in that situation, shouldn't you be prepared for it anyway. If they allow you to walk out of the city carrying a rifle and toting a pack, great, but what if they don't?

One other note on authority and private security. I am not sure how it works exactly in other states, but in FL, the sherrif of a county can "deputize" anyone he wishes to act on his behalf. That is, if he wanted to deputize a private company, he has that authority. I don't think it would be a good idea in most cases, but he could do it nonetheless. Concerning BW, I have a buddy who works with them and was in NOLA, and I have firsthand account that they were sent in, before the levvies broke, to start confiscating firearms. Who sent them and by waht jurisdiction seems to still be under the table, but it happened nonetheless. The reason given the guys that went in was that they feared riots, and thought that disarmed crowds would be easier to handle. But in the long run, this may have added to the problem by creating people who thought the Feds were there to take their liberties and not help.

Things to think about.

Smackdaddyj

Very Interesting thread. I hope that what Jeff is saying about the federal response is true, but...

In my area (Dallas - Ft. Worth, Texas) there is a fairly large federal depot that has lots of stuff in it. Generators of every size and shape, from small portable units to semi-trailers. There are also semi trailers with FEMA on them. There are literally hundreds of mobile homes (travel trailers). Also there are dozens of freezer semi-trailers. Basically lots of helpful things. The thing though that has me wondering, and seems to point to some form of potential refuge camp or incarceration facility, is the fence. Over the last few years they have been fortifying it with rail-road rails welded on the bottom and 3-strand barbed wire. The barbed wire points IN as if to contain people, as opposed to OUT to keep people out.

Any thoughts on this?

BTW, in the recent ice-storm and accompaning power outages in Oklahoma, I noticed several semis loaded with generators leaving the site and I assume, going to Oklahoma. They have some NICE generators. I drool everytime I drive past.

My guess is that your observaions are correct! Many such places exist around the country and more are bing constructed.

Can you say: "Crisis Relocation"? I can. I could say some other things but it's best to do you own research @ places like FEMA and Halliburton, Brown, & Root.

I’m not sure the barbed wire pointing in is to keep people in. I live close to a refinery, the tank farm (must be 30 or 40 very large tanks in it) has the barbed wire pointing in. It’s been this way since the 1960s. They don’t want people getting in there, they are not trying to contain anyone.

I have seen a lot of fences configured in this manner, and it never makes any sense to me. Even one CHP parking lot. My guess is that the educated idiots who designed the fence had not a shread of common sense. It is pretty easy to hop over a fence with the angled part pointing in the direction you want to go, much harder if you are climbing against the angle...

yes, easy to get in with the inward facing barb, but what about when you try to get out while hauling your ill-begotten loot?

Is this standard barbed wire or concertina wire? -- big difference.

"...big difference..."


Oh yeah!!! Or barbed verses razorwire...

As far as I am concerned, there are really two very different situations to consider when thinking about bailing out, and they revolve around where you currntly live. If you are in the "boonies," then staying put and being in familiar terrirory could be a great idea, and would most likely be my first option in that situation. However, if you are in a city, then you are facing an entirely different situation. In the country, if things go bad, most people have some capability to sustain themselves, and the smaller communities generally band together to provide the things specific to one family or another. But in the city, most people have no capability to porduce. They are only consumers, and when consumers have nothing to consume, they become predators (i.e.: another type of consumer). Also the people that are prepared are totally reliant on their stores, and have very little capability to begin producing, which sustains you over the long haul in something like a serious depression.

One of the things I have looked at over the last several years is buying (no debt) property within easy driving of a city to be able to get what I need, but far enough out that I can have land and be self suficient.

Smackdaddyj

If things were to get seriously bad you'd probably want sustainable land NOT withing easy driving distance of a large city. My guess would be far away from major population centers. Unless you feel like having lots of house guests. Then again, any property is better than no property.

One other thought for me is that I will be in AK, the population is smaller there already, and most people are going to head South in an emergency, I would prefer to go North. Plus the fact that there are really only 3 places in AK that can really be considered cities, and the largest of those would be considered small in the lower 48, is a good thing for me. I am focussing on making my home electricity independant. Not that I want to build a home with no electricity, but I want one that can continue to function without it if necessary. That is a real concern in AK, even without an "emergency." I plan to look at property in the 1 hour out range. It makes getting into town for business doable, but also puts you far enough out that you will not really be messed with on a regular basis.

Just my thoughts.

Smackdaddyj