Probably the most effective tool for hunting small game is a .22 rifle. But bullets can only be used one time. When you run out of ammo, you're left with what is basically now just a club.

But crossbow bolts can be retrieved and reused. Occasionally a bolt may get lost or broken, but I figure that a man with a dozen or so bolts can probably kill more rabbits and squirrels than a man with 200 rounds of .22 bullets.

So how practical are those hand crossbows? Are they legitimate small game hunting tools, or are they more suitable for merely shooting paper targets in your backyard?

Caveat to my input. As a shirt I have says: "Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion"

I think the crossbow is probably more toy than legitimate. I just feel that the rifle makes more sense. Plus, if you are going to shoot 200 rounds worth of squirrels and rabbits I'd hate to be you. That would be one whale of survival situation!! You better learn trapping and snaring techniques 'cuz the crossbow and the rifle can become equally useless "clubs" at any time.

I'd look for a youth model single-shot .22 (to save weight) and have it ready to go. I personally will never get rid of the Chipmunk .22 I bought over ten years ago. It is a great 2.5 pound rifle that would suit a survival situation for me. Yes, I am a touch over 6 feet tall, so shooting the little thing is cramped. But it works.

Again, refer to the quote at the beginning.

I had the same toughts about 8 years ago, but have religated my small pistol cross bow (40#draw)to a last ditch thing. I did use it to a few take Ptarmigan while on a long outing, but then they are fairly stupid birds and are easy to kill with a thrown rock or stick. I tried for a few rabbits and snow shoe hare with it but the 40# pistol is a little slow for either one. I though of trying a heavier draw but never got around to it. I still keep it around because it will be better than nothing at all, but personally won't use it until I run out of ammo.

I've never used a crossbow, but I would think they'd be a bit awkward to haul around as a basic survival hunting tool. Even a small "hand" one (never seen one of those personally, but I can imagine what you're talking about). For emergency hunting use I'd consider a slingshot even better - you'd have basically unlimited ammo using small round pebbles. But a "Wrist Rocket" style slingshot would still too awkward to routinely carry IMHO. Plus, I don't think I've ever been able to hit anything with one. Practice ahead of time would be needed, but I'd still consider this a dubious thing to carry as a normal item. It would depend on your circumstances I guess.

Your righ about a wrist rocket being a better choice (IMHO)IF YO PRACTICE with it. I have a folding wrist rocket in my pack with 100 1/4 inch ball bearings. I have tacke several small game animals with it and ones like it over the years.

I agree with Ray, A Wrist Rocket is about the best overall for a survival situation. Besides, I prefer to save my ammo for bad guys who want to disturb me. Also, marbles make great ammo, almost as good as ball bearings, IMHO.

I also like a sling for the same reason as the Wrist Rocket.

"Wrist Rocket"

A long time ago I went through a phase where I spent a lot of time shooting with a Wrist Rocket. My favorite was a folding version as it slipped easily, with fodder and spare rubbers, into a surplus ammo pouch. I got fairly good at shooting.

The main weakness of those units is the rubber tubing.

The latex rubber degrades quickly when exposed to sunlight or ozone. You can usually tell when they are getting because they develop a darker amber exterior sheen. You can often see surface cracks. Typically worse where they slide over the rods of the handle. When you see this they need to be replaced. Failure to replace them in good time risks the tube coming back at you. If it happens at full draw you can lose an eye. From experience, being lucky, I can say it stung the hand something fierce. I couldn't use my finger for some time.

Sunlight and ozone attack the rubber so limit exposure to both. More drastic is the effects on the rubbers of petroleum products. The oil in insect repellents, Vaseline and motor oil can destroy a set of slingshot rubbers in a a couple of hours.

If your planning on using a rubber powered slingshot I would inspect the rubber frequently and replace them when they show any weakness. Although I never did, seriously consider wearing safety glasses. Those rubber tubes hold a lot of power when fully extended. I used to put a 3/8" lead ball through a piece of 3/4" plywood with power to spare.

Gets me thinking. Somewhere around here I have at least two Wrist Rockets I haven't played with for most of twenty years. And I recently saw the replacement rubbers for them on sale.

Crossbows are IMHO quite acceptable as survival weapons. Granted that most of the small 'pistol' models are something less than serious tools I have seen them put to some use. We use one to shoot lines through the attic of a building. With that sort of power I figure you could shoot squirrels and rabbits at perhaps 30' or so. Which may be quite good enough for many of the brush clogged southern forests. Assuming your willing to do a bit of stalking, hiding and using trickery to get close enough.

Looking at cheap unit I could see myself making bolts out of materials at hand. Biggest wear item would be the string. So I would keep a supply of appropriate light line to make replacements.

Snares and traps would be more efficient but you would have to stay in the area longer and regularly check them to keep your game from being lunched by predators and/or the game dying a slow death. Their presence would make yours known. Not a problem in most cases and if it is your land but something to keep in mind.

Larger and more powerful crossbows are certainly much more capable than the discount store pistol version. These were the original sniper weapon. The later 500 pound pull and above crossbows were essentially primitive anti-tank weapons used on the armor of the day, knights.

Crossbows are simple, adaptable and quite capable of doing a number of serious jobs. The larger versions can rival the power of many rifles at moderate ranges.

With a nod to both their strengths and limitations both slingshots and crossbows can easily justify their weight and cost. Neither would be my immediate first choice for short term survival but as an adjunct to other resources when I might be operating from a fixed base I think they pull their weight.

here in california we use these:

http://wrightlife.com/images/large/5210-large.jpg

you may laugh, but when used horizontally don't get hit with one.

competition models reach out to 200 yards.

bsmith

We (the crew) used one of these to bombard another patrol boat as we pulled alongside of them during some wargames off of the NC coast.

I don't want to get into the events that were subsequently to take place and that culminated in us having a few $K in damages and being out of the SAR business for about 5 weeks (it takes time to arrange for repairs).

This is a very DANGEROUS weapon!!!!!

How do you hunt rabbits with THAT?! Do you launch the rabbits AT the ball bearings?! ;-)

Actually, they use these things to launch rolled up free T-shirts into the crowd at our Colorado Avalanche hockey games. Quite potent - they can easily hit the upper part of the second deck. They have some compressed gas cannon they use to hit the third deck nosebeed section. If you got blindsided by one of those slingshot'ed or cannon'ed T-shirts they'd probably knock you right off your deck.

good one! i think they heard me screaming laughing down the street...


bsmith

well, i couldn't help it. wrist rocket, indeed!

my friend's young adult children launched a balloon at their uncle's pride and joy vehicle. he's an ordained minister and i'm told there was quite a "come-to-jesus meeting" over the vehicle's caved in door panel.

and the distance was 50 +/- yards.

so yeah, think baseball-size/dense object, horizontally - WOW! bring 'em on


bsmith

Don't tell the Montenyard people of Viet Nam that crossbows don't work for hunting or killing larger "game" they have been using them for centurys and are VERY good with them.

What do you guys think of these?

80lb Aluminium Self Cocking Pistol Crossbow

150lb Aluminium Rifle Crossbow

do they break down to carry?

i think they are a good idea - reusable arrows, etc - but also losable arrows, too.

i'd rather have pistol or rifle for portability, concealability (sp?) and accuracy.

IMHO 200 rounds are more manageable than even 20 darts, nevermind the bow.

but guns are not for everyone.


bsmith

This one folds so you can put it in a backpack:

180 Lb crossbow

I have no experience with a crossbow, but today I was plinking clay pigeons with my .22 rifle at about 100 yards, then hitting the pieces, until there was nothing left big enough to be seen from that distance. I doubt that anyone can do that with a crossbow...

The $19.95 novelty ones are a toy and a joke. There are high end ones that are serious weapons. Many crossbows have the prod [the bow part] attached by bolts that can easily be removed. This can make a crossbow either pistol or full sized more compact for carrying. While bolts are reusable or easily fashioned the critical part is the string. Because it drags along the body of the bow it wears quickly. This would behoove you to include a backup or maybe several.

Personally I prefer a long bow. The limitations are two fold. One you need both arm fully functional to use. So a crossbow might be better in a real survival situation where one might be injured. The second is that it takes a great deal more time and effort to learn and to become proficient with a long bow. Many of the newer non-compound ones can be broken down into the 2 limbs and center section. For a very compact package. While the string does not wear as quickly it is still the most likely thing to break. Carry a spare.

Slingshots are smaller and easy to carry. Their pluses and minuses have been covered.

There is also the sling of David and Goliath fame. Before you think these might not be effective. Remember these things were a weapon of war. A trained slinger could throw a chicken egg sized rock or lead pellet and drop a man at upwards of a hundred yards. They make a package that is about half the size of a fist. But like the bow it takes a lot of practice to be good. If you try one don't expect bulls eyes right off the bat. David while tending the flocks had many hours to wile away. Throwing rocks with a sling was probably a way to entertain himself.

Another compact weapon I carry is a bola. Yes to be really effective they should weigh a couple of pounds. But there is a trick to make them light and easy to carry. This is to replace the weights with cloth drawstring bags. The lines and the other bags can be stuffed in one of the bags. When you need to use simple unpack and then fill the bags with whatever is at hand. This could be dirt, sand, rocks and even snow.

that's the accuracy thing i mentioned above...

Didn't have time to read all of the replies before I stuck my two cents worth in...

In the normal course of activities, in addition to breaking bolts, you’ll ruin fletchings and damage heads. Both will greatly affect your accuracy. Personally, I’d stick with the .22

no spank intended. i thought you were validating my point - and i was acknowledging your validation.

i'll stop typing now!


maybe that's why the cowboys won? bullets vs arrows?

I own a hand crossbow. It goes solidly into the "dangerous toy" category, just like most of my throwing knives. (My throwing Ka-Bar clone is the obvious exception.)

You just can't get the oomph out of them, and the accuracy is sketchy to boot. As for recovering the bolts, the use a plastic bolt with a press-fitted aluminum tip of iffy pointiness- you miss, it will go into wood about the depth of the tip which will stay in the wood. Even the aluminum shafted ones are press fitted onto a plastic tail end. If someone was to make one that throws in the 200fps range, maybe even compound in design, and used an aluminum or fiber shaft that could use a steel broadhead, maybe.

Honestly, spend a little more, and get yourself a good .20 or .22 caliber air rifle (pump or spring, not CO2) if you are looking for something like this. They can take small rodents and birds, and you can pack enough pellets into a 20oz soda bottle to last a LONG time.

Or a real crossbow, or a bow. Keep in mind that a crossbow can have some of the same possession issues, and even worse, than a firearm, depending on where you are. And the social issues are much greater than if your neighbors see you with a hunter's bow, and the bow is generally easier to find arrows for. Yes, a bow does take more strength to use, but not by much, and the degree of skill needed to use either is similiar. And greater than the air rifle.

That's my opinion too. A good air rifle or pistol will take small game and lead pellets are cheap, easy to find, and very compact. I've even made pellets from left over lead in the past. As long as you can find something to mold them in it's pretty easy.

5,000 pellets don't weigh very much and they require very little space.

If you want to stretch things out,,carry 3,000 BB's for the small birds.

I'd tend to agree with those preferring a rifle, but what if buying and keeping a rifle is not a good option? What if you do not want to endure the permitting process in a place as onerous as NYC?

If you want to keep something in your home and you live here, you need to consider soemthing else. Of course, a wrist rocket is also not legal. I think you can own a slingshot, but not with a wrist brace.

Slingshots are banned in NYC? Wow. Well at least now we know why we don't read about drive-by slingshottings in NYC, when they're all over the headlines for other cities.

Slingshots are not banned, but ones with wrist braces are banned. I'm not sure if you can buy one with a folding wrist brace, remove the wrist brace, and bring it within the law.

Hi,

One handed crossbows are classed as Prohibited Weapons in Canada.

Full sized hunting crossbows are quite effective and widely used to take big game in Ontario.

I have taken a few grouse with a sling-shot but I never put in the time to practice, I missed many more than I got.

I have seen rabbits and grouse taken with air pistols and rifles, they work well if the game is close and the shot well placed.

Myself I prefer a compact .22 rimfire rifle or short barreled shotgun as they are more accurate and effective, especially at longer range.

Mike

"maybe that's why the cowboys won? bullets vs arrows?"

Contrary to what you see in the westerns the Native Americans lost because initially they were decimated by disease.

Then we finished them off using the tactics of genocide: destroying crops and game animals, intentional biological warfare, forced relocations, and indiscriminate killing of women and children to weaken the Indian nations. The native Americans initially had no idea of how bloodthirsty we could be until they were weak and outnumbered.

In many cases the Indians had more modern and capable weapons than the US forces. The most famous case is at "Custer's last stand" where the Indian nations had modern repeating rifles that were both more accurate and faster firing than the single-shot carbines most of the US troops had. Just one of the many reasons they lost that one.

After the 1700s the native Americans had weapons about equivalent to or better than the US military. The civilian weapons they traded for were often superior to what the hide-bound military was using. But to no avail. Disease, starvation, economic and ecological destruction had already destroyed their population base.

Lesson being that survival is a system. You can't focus on physical security while neglecting other aspects. In the long run the race does not always go to the stronger, smarter, more moral or the better armed.

In places where the laws are that stringent on firearms they're also probably ultra stringent on crossbows and pellet guns. I haven't been able to find the penal code for crossbows in NYC but the crossbow websites all indicate they're not allowed. So, buying a crossbow instead of a rifle is not a viable option.

However, you probably aren't going to be hunting in the city proper, so why not buy and store a gun somewhere else? You could buy a rifle in upstate New York, rent a storage locker and store the gun there. Nothing illegal about it. You may or may not be able to reach it in a major disaster, but you certainly can't reach a gun you don't own in an emergency. And, you can take it with you camping and hiking where its allowed.

There are few legal options in NYC, and I've seen the same info on crossbows in NYC. As far as hunting in the City itself, I think your best legal options are probably a slingshot without a wrist brace, a bow, nets, snares or some other forms of trap, and maybe some fishing gear. It might be quite possible to live for a while off of small game in NYC, but I'd need to be very hungry before eating some of it though.

I already have some firearms stored outside of NYC, with an idea of buying some more. Buying those will probably wait until at least the middle of next year.

One other idea for taking small game in a city is a blow gun. They are hard to make a clean kill with but can take up to small dogs and large house cats.

"...a blow gun...

Check your local laws first, blowguns are a felony in CA. Go figure...

Hi,

A Blowgun is a Federal Prohibited Weapon in Canada also.

Mike

Jeez, you can't have anything! Canadians, New Yorkers and Californians (not the full list, just the ones mentioned here) are seriously out of luck. Time to start some serious lobbying in favor of more reasonable gun/weapon control. Maybe we need an INTERnational Rifle Association. But with an acronym different then IRA

New York State allows a lot more than New York City. It's much easier to own a firearm outside of the City. Some firearms, such as a shotgun, I think are easy to legally purchase and own, so long as you do not bring it into the City. You may find it much easier having an address outside NYC to get through the Federal checks.

As I understand it, blowguns may also be out in NYC. I've been thinking of making one, as something to keep with my BOB. You can mkae one out of electrical conduit, in two pieces, and I could make it look like I was using it as a trekking pole, or even make it so it's obvious function was to be a trekking pole.

New Yorkers, residents of the City itself, really cannot have much that would be useful for keeping themselves alive and protected and could possibly function as a weapon, hunting or otherwise. I can see that it would be very possible to hurt someone with a blow gun, but not do much more without poison on your darts.

In times of disaster, etc., and we really have few choices: bugout before we are at risk; hide; pray; and/or put your life in the hands of government bureaucrats, most of whom may be well-meaning people, but that does not mean they have our best interests at heart. I've got someplace else to go close to New York, so bugging out might be a good option.

I am a seasoned bow hunter with over 20 years of experience, I have over 100 big game kills, 1/2 of wich with archery equipment.
Not trying to be a braggert, I know guys with much more experience then I, but I say all that so you know I am not telling you what I "think". Most of my experience is with a compound bow. Several years ago I had a shoulder sugery wich made shooting the bow tuffer. I could shoot fine, but pratice was a lot harder. I then purchased a top of the line "Tenpoint" 150 lb cross bow. No Toy. I have taken several animals and can attest to the effectiveness. I do not though consider any crossbow pistol in the same league as a top of the line cross bow. I will say that hunting with a crossbow is not the laser some people would think, infact it has very little on my 63 pound draw weight compound, in terms of effective range. Also those bolts are pretty fragile. Every one of them I have put in an animal has broke, and have had many of the ferrules come appart while practicing.
In a survival situation the .22 rimfire or .22wmr, is HARD to beat. I have taken everything from morning Doves to Whitetale deer with a .22 rimfire, and it would be my preference.

Blowguns... *shakes head*

Every culture that I'm aware of that has used the blowgun has used poison darts. Without that, you've stabbed them with something like a hat pin if your tube is skinny and short enough to be mistaken for a trekking pole. And not stabbed them very deep.

A good blowgun is BIG- six feet or so in length, and fires something about the size of a chopstick. But it is still SLOW, with very limited range.

You are at least as well off with a pocket full of steel balls and a good pitching arm.

Not everyone that has ever used a blowgun has used one with poison. See: http://www.geocities.com/blowgunhunter/

ON the FAQ page this person states:

"I stay far away from poison and have never tried hunting with it. A blowgun is only a small game weapon. Since I can kill rabbits and squirrels without poison, I don't see the need to risk messing with it. Going after anything large enough to require poison seems like using the wrong weapon for the job to me. However, in the book "A Sporting Chance" by Mannix, the author gets a permit to acquire some kind of poison, then gets special one-time permission to use it hunting and is sucessful at killing a small deer with a poisoned blowgun dart."

If I was going to have one, it would be at least five feet long, over 1/2 inch in diameter, and it would shoot something like a chopstick, trust me. But It's primary purpose would be to look like a walking stick, but be available in case I needed to swing it like a club. As far as using it to hunt, I hope I never get that desperate. I won't ever want to use it for with purpose whatsoever, same thing with a some of the other things I have for just in case.

Is this an ideal thing to have, absolutely no way. It stinks relative to a lot of others things one could have. But when the local laws put serious legal hurdles in the way of owning what you would like to have, you begin to think "Well, what else could I have and use." And my pitching arm is not what it used to be.

I like the combination of a .22LR, 12 gauge and 30-06 Sprg. But in order to own any one of those legally in NYC, I would need to go through a costly permitting process, plus a few other onerous things, with no certainty that I would be granted a permit.

In NYC I'm pretty sure you can own a bow.

As for the guy with the blow gun... I want to see it in person before I believe it. There are ways to do it, but they are all based on bleeding out or a CNS kill. The former takes more time than it does to run away, the latter luck or the rabbit being held down. Looking at the angle of the dart, it looks like it was either caged, or very tame.