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#115513 - 12/11/07 09:48 PM Re: home defense [Re: Tjin]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
So mine first question is very simple, have you though of the preventive measure (target hardening) first?


Yes. The hardware on our doors was upgraded, including extra-long screws holding in the strike plates, replacing the full-length glass door(!) with one with small windows, etc...

With young kids in the house the guns are all locked up. I don't want to shoot anyone (well, maybe two or three and the cat whistle). I'd rather they went and bothered someone else and making the house a hardened target helps with this.

That being said, it's comforting that I am allowed to defend my family rather "run away" as our only option.

-Blast
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#115514 - 12/11/07 09:50 PM Re: home defense [Re: MarshAviator]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Those in CA may want to note the recent law imposed starting
July 2008 that bans all ammo containing lead (except shotguns)
in the range of the condor (about 20% of the state). It appears even having a 22 and ammunition for it in your home could cost you a year in jail.

I am going to write the Fish and Game commission to disagree with
their new law which goes beyond what the Governator signed.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20071207-1701-ca-californiacondor.html

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#115517 - 12/11/07 10:03 PM Re: home defense [Re: MarshAviator]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
Originally Posted By: MarshAviator
...Most of the US except the Northeast ( New York for example only permits cops and criminals to own guns)...

HUH? I live in NY State, I am neither a cop of a criminal, and could go legally buy a long gun in about 15 minutes. Many in my area have CCW licenses for handguns, and few of the many are cops.
_________________________
Our most important survival tool is our brain, and for many, that tool is way underused! SBRaider
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#115519 - 12/11/07 10:13 PM Re: home defense [Re: Taurus]
MarshAviator Offline
Marsh Aviator
Journeyman

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
SBRaider,
Sorry, I should have said NYC, not state.
It's almost impossible to get a CCW in the City.
Certainly didn't mean to imply anything about the people who live there, just the Laws.

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#115523 - 12/11/07 10:53 PM Re: home defense [Re: Taurus]
Taurus Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 458
Loc: Northern Canada
To further clarify what was said before, I don't want to come across as someone who has a loaded gun in every room of the house for the sake of protection. I don't turn off all the lights at night with a DVD player in front of the window and wait for someone to try to get in for a bit of sadistic target practice either. I have two gun safes, accessible only by keypad entry or backup key. All the ammo is locked in a third safe via abbloy lock. One safe is located in each opposite area of the house so within a very short time I can have a loaded weapon in hand if I need it while taking precautions to keep my kids out of them when not needed. The whole argument of having guns to protect a home goes straight out the window if they are not secured properly. Last thing you need is for a child to shoot you or worst, themselves due to carelessness. The decision to have weapons in the home is a big responsibility and the appropriate actions need to be taken to ensure they do not fall into the wrong hands. Just as a story, I have a friend whose place was broken into while he was at the store. His girlfriend lay drunk on the bed after a party and the robber made away with all of his GUNS and nothing else. It’s a good thing that it was a robber and not a Rapist, but either way she could not defend herself. The robber got the guns and ammo which was in the closet and God only knows where they will turn up next. If secured properly then at least he wouldn’t have gotten them so easily. The next time they are used they may pointed at me while he tries to get into my home. One could argue either way of course, A while back I actually read of a case where someone took a young girl from her bedroom as her parents slept, unaware that anyone was in the house. In this case guns were of little use to anyone except the person committing the crime. In another case, a father was forced to watch at gunpoint as his Daughter was being assaulted by two armed men because he was not armed himself. Food for thought as always.

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#115528 - 12/11/07 11:14 PM Re: home defense [Re: Taurus]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Solid oak doors and steel doors, Medeco locks, alarm system, motion sensor lights, cameras, laminated glass windows.....that's the first layer of defense. Firearms, knives, and other weapons are a last resort, but still part of the overall picture.

Just like we prepare with multiple layers of gear, your home should be protected by multiple layers of gear. Relying on firearms or steel doors alone is like only having one knife. Sure, it may work most of the time; but if it breaks or fails.....it could be life or death.

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#115529 - 12/11/07 11:23 PM Re: home defense [Re: Tjin]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
Originally Posted By: PC2K

Shooting a intruder is effective to defend your self, but not having intruders in your house is a lot better. Shooting also is a repressive action, which requires someone to be there.
So mine first question is very simple, have you though of the preventive measure (target hardening) first? Prevention is usually more effective and is generally considered a better place to start.

You are 100% correct about shooting being a last ditch defense. Like Taurus having had to fire my weapon in the line of duty with (unfortunatly)leathal results, I can tell you there is nothing in my home worth killing for except myself and my family when I'm home. I would allow (during normal times) a person to take anything in my home as long as they left my family alone. Possesions can be replaced, a life cannot.


Edited by raydarkhorse (12/11/07 11:24 PM)
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

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#115532 - 12/11/07 11:31 PM Re: home defense [Re: Blast]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
Ain't it great to be a Texan! I don't want to use a weapon ever again except as recreation, but it's good to know I won't go to prison for defending myself.
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

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#115538 - 12/12/07 12:22 AM Re: home defense [Re: MarshAviator]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Guns in home defense are always going to be a double edged sword. A gun in your hand can deter theft and violence but once laid down it is a prime target for thieves.

In a recent case a man who was known to have guns was overpowered and tortured to extract the combination to his large gun safe. He was then killed.

If he he didn't have such a large collection of guns that were seen as valuable to thugs and/or easily sold on the black market... If it was not known he had such an attractive hoard... If he had not been tricked, forced or persuaded to allow the intruders in... If he had fled out the back instead of becoming a hostage to his battery of guns.... Things would have turned out differently.

Also there is the cautionary tale of a typical accidental shooting related by a police detective in Virginia: The man is in the military. He feels bad about leaving his wife behind and gets her a handgun for protection. He returns home and has a night out with the guys. He stays out drinking far later than he expected. Returning home he realizes he has left his keys inside. He could pound on the door but this would risk upsetting the wife. Remembering a window that is unlocked he proceeds to break in. The wife wakes to someone breaking in. Nothing makes as much noise as a drunk trying to be quiet. She reaches for the gun and bravely advances on the source of the noise. She sees in silhouette a large gibbering and incoherent man thrashing and struggling through a window. In fear of her life she shoots. Realizing what she has done only after the fact.

The police detective relates that this happens with husbands attempting to sneak in but also with teenagers who were thought to be safe in their bed.

Also be careful about assuming that your entirely safe shooting someone in your home.

It may be an open and shut case if the door has been obviously battered down, the guy still has a lethal weapon in his cold-dead hand, the person doing the shooting was up for beatification and the dead guy was on the FBI most-wanted list for home invasion and murder.

Anything less clear and you can expect problems.

The more likely case is that your family and neighbors have been in a feud for some time. The victim was heard saying that what he should do is to go to your house and settle things peacefully. When you answered the door he seemed calm and sober and he claimed to just want to talk. You unlocked the door and he pushed his way in. He is much larger than you are and he is clearly irrational and violent. While screaming that that he has a gun he says that he is 'going to settle it by killing your entire stinking family'. He keeps his hand in his pocket like he has a gun. You think he has one and in fear of your life and the children sleeping in the back bedroom you shoot him.

After the police arrive they note that the door is not damaged and he doesn't have a weapon. Blood taken from the corpse is lost so nobody knows if he was on drugs. There are no other witnesses.

There are people who testify that you had previously said that if you caught him on your property you would shoot him. The victim's family claims that he went to your house to 'bury the hatchet' and that you let him in and then ambushed him while he was seeking peace and unarmed. Of course you are presented as a scheming manipulative villain and the guy you shot as a saint.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from being armed, keeping guns or using one when necessary to protect yourself. But it isn't as simple as buying a gun and keeping it in your nightstand. And certainly a collection of thirty guns is not thirty times as good for home defense as having only one. Particularly if the neighbors know you have them.

It is also clear that just because your state has a 'castle' law your not foot-loose and fancy-free to casually shoot just anyone in your home. Even if your entirely in the right and under direct credible threat you can expect repercussions. Some people who have been cleared after a justified shooting have commented that considering the amount of time, money and legal and civil jeopardy they now wish they had just let the intruder run away.

I am advocating that people think these issues through.

If you keep firearms limit the types and numbers to the sort that is less likely to attract thieves. Limit who knows you have them. Practice information control. No showing off or bragging. On-line or otherwise. Having nothing significant to steal and/or nobody knowing about what you have is the simplest and most cost effective step.

Have a strong perimeter. This is the second most cost effective step. IMHO limiting temptation, information control and sturdy locks in stout construction combined and well used will get you most of the way there.

More esoterically: Plan on how to control your perimeter in difficult scenarios. Expect the tough calls. If someone shows up with your daughter and holds a gun to her head demanding to get into the house what do you do? In some cases there may be no easy answers.

Make sure you have protocols in place and well understood to avoid accidentally shooting people who are supposed to be there but who may be 'out of place'.

Careful familiarization with the weapon and its capabilities can help to keep a user calm and confident enough to fully identify the potential target before they shoot. Calm people in control of tools they feel confident with make better decisions than people who are operating out of fear and hiding behind a weapon they are unfamiliar with.

Even if your entirely in the right and in a 'castle' state having one or more witnesses, person/s or electronic documentation, can go a long way to helping the judge and jury see it your way.




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#115544 - 12/12/07 12:50 AM Re: home defense [Re: raydarkhorse]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
"HOME INVASION" has become a popular and effective method of getting control of home owners.

"SMASH & GRAB" has become a popular and effective method of getting control of business and organizations

Variations are seen every week on the news. The home invasions get little press because they are so common and there are no videos and only a couple of victims. Convenience stores get press because of their video cameras. Larger tragedies such as Columbine, Amish School, Virginia Tech, Russian School, Colorado church get press because of the large body count.

The criminals employ planning and speed. They enter quickly before the victims can get organized.

The Colorado church killings was stopped at four victims dead. A congregation member, VOLUNTEER in the lobby saw the stage unfold. As a former Minnesota police officer and a Colorado concealed weapon permit holder, she was lucky. With no organization, no 911 call, no authority, no pay check, no vest, no back up, no badge and no indecision, she fired.

The minister stated she saved hundreds.

You make your own choice about firearms. No one should make that decision for you. Do not make the decision frivously.
---------------------------------

My wife and I carry every place except the shower.
The front room of our home is a gun shop.



_________________________
Cliff Harrison
PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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