From Mr. Ritter himself. The use of firearms for survival or preparedness, either for food gathering or self-defense, is a perfectly acceptable topic. Bearing this in mind, I don't want to stray into what would be considered inappropriate discussion on what usually turns into heated topic.
Guns for hunting or shooting aside, I strongly believe in having a firearm for defending my family. After serving in different places around the globe with the Military, I have seen just how cruel and vicious people can actually get. I will never allow this sort of thing to happen to my family so long as I can draw breath. I do not condone violence unless there is no way around it. I have had to fire my weapon with lethal results in the line of duty and no matter how justified, I prey I will never need to do again. The raw fact of life is that it is more likely to have someone break into your home intending you harm than it is to survive a plane crash and have to live in the woods. This happens every other day in a large place. If someone broke into my home and there was any way to avoid taking life then I would, warning shot to scare them off, using non lethal force first etc. As always, the situation will dictate the action you take. Was the person armed or unarmed?? Was it a kid or a 300 pound brute monster intent on assaulting your wife?? Where I live, this sort of situation is worth preparing for as much as any other. I feel that if anyone disagrees then they simply need to NOT break in to my home and threaten my family.

Are there people on this forum familiar with Canadian law?? (police officers etc) If you follow the rules regarding escalation of force what exactly will the legal repercussions be for defending your family with lethal force? I already know what I will do if I find myself faced by this situation. As long as the people I care about are safe I will deal with everything else later, But it does raise a few valid points.

I thank God that I live in the US. I too am prepared to use deadly force to defend my family. I am not prepared to go through the various steps of escalation, though.

Louisiana Law states that I have the right to shoot an intruder, in my home, PERIOD.

To the best of my knowledge, Texas State Law is more liberal about defending one's home and property, after darkness has fallen, than Louisiana State Law.

Hey Texans, would y'all care to comment on your state laws, My understanding of Texas State Law may well be in error!!!

The Castle Doctrine says three things:
1. Presumption of intent to do great bodily harm when someone breaks into your home, occupied vehicle or workplace, or any other place you have a right to be.
2. It removes the duty to retreat.
3. Civil immunity from survivors of the aggressor. Family cannot benefit from crime.

During hours of darkness a Texan can shoot a tresspasser on their land, no questions asked.




-Blast

While I agree that everyone should be prepared to defend their home in whichever way they choose, a weapon should be only one part of a multi-layered defense and shouldn't be overly relied upon. Things like proper lighting, kick-proof doors, and effective alarm systems can be of equal importance. The point is to do everything possilbe to avoid a home invasion from happening in the first place.

Well what usually strikes me, with these guns topics is the fact that people don't see other effective measures being out there. Preventive action is way better than repressive action. Shooting a intruder is effective to defend your self, but not having intruders in your house is a lot better. Shooting also is a repressive action, which requires someone to be there. So shooting should be the last thing ditch measure. (some may agree or disagree about this measure, but that's stuff for heated debates)

So mine first question is very simple, have you though of the preventive measure (target hardening) first? Prevention is usually more effective and is generally considered a better place to start.

I now live in New York City. We are allowed to use harsh language as long as it is not of a racially or religiously offensive nature. Of course, that's tongue in cheek. You can get a carry permit here. It's just a little more difficult than getting licensed to operate a nuclear power reactor.

That's a really good point. What are the best ways to improve security in your home? Or even more of a challenge, how do you improve security in an apartment where you can't make any major changes to the basic infrastructure? We don't walk down the street oblivious to our surroundings flashing cash and jewelry expecting to shoot anyone who attacks us. Security first, guns as a final response.

Hello All,

I would say that you should have some good locks on your doors to help keep people out and beyond that, a 12ga will take care of most everyone out there and will remove limbs when used in a less than lethal method. I use a 2X4 to bar my back door it is pretty effective at keeping people out IMHO.

Stealing my car is one thing, kicking door the door to my house is another.

My 2 cents.
Dave

I often watch a TV commercial from a well known alarm monitoring company in which the alarm goes off after an intruder breaks the door down.
It always makes me chuckle as the operator says "I am sending help right now", which would you rather have ;
1) help being sent now (arrival indeterminate maybe 5 min)
2) Loaded shotgun in hand now ?
Also note the intruder always leaves after the alarm goes off, what about the 5% of the time when he doesn't ?
Having worked in my youth as a locksmiths apprentice, I can tell you any kind of lock or even barricade is just a deterrent.
If someone really wants in, they will get in.
It is prudent to make a premise as secure as possible, and to have an alarm with monitoring, but when all else fails, the means to defend oneself and loved ones is essential!
Most of the US except the Northeast ( New York for example only permits cops and criminals to own guns) allow lethal force when an intruder enters;the south and west (except for Peoples republic of Kalifornia) do all cases.

Hopefully the Supreme Court will uphold the 2nd A for all of the U.S.

Canada seems to be coming to it's senses at least with respect to registration, this should be a lesson for the U.S. as well, if it didn't work in Canada it certainly will not here.

In the mean time, a defense in depth consisting of as many layers as possible is best, alarms,lights (motion sensor type), good locks,kick-plates,latch plate reinforcements,pepper spray and last but not least a firearm.

Before anyone gets their panties all in a bunch, I want to make it clear once again that I do not intended to get in heated debate, not politics, nor inappropriate discussion which will offend anyone, But rather a friendly discussion on protecting ones family by means of a firearm or other means. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to survive in the woods. As for this topic, there may be more than one way to protect ones family. I agree that shooting someone should be a absolute last resort. Should someone be in my garage steeling my lawnmower then I will secure my family and call the police to let them do their job, as I really don't need to shoot and possibly put a neighbour at risk unnecessarily for the sake of something I can easily replace. Someone on the inside of my house uninvited is a totally different matter. To answer your question, yes I have considered other means to prevent people from getting in such as window bars, alarm systems and the like. I also know that should someone want in bad enough then they will find a way. A firearm in the hands of a properly trained person can be the last resort between the police arriving too late to a crime scene and me protecting the ones I love. As for fortifying the old homestead to lessen the possibility of intrusion, I would really love to hear some ideas from the forum. I do not wish for the thread to go somewhere unintended, I simply realize that survival is survival, and in being equip to survive the preparations often start with the defending of your own home.

FYI To Answer a question on a previous post. It is perfectly legal for Canadians to own pistols, I have several. It is not legal under any circumstance that I am aware of to carry them on my person. I can only transport them to and from the range under lock and key, and only with express authorization to do so from the RCMP. As well a valid possession and acquisition licence is required. I am answering it here because I did not want to rudely hi-jack MicroAge 97's BOB post. I figured it best to simply start a new thread.

Yes. The hardware on our doors was upgraded, including extra-long screws holding in the strike plates, replacing the full-length glass door(!) with one with small windows, etc...

With young kids in the house the guns are all locked up. I don't want to shoot anyone (well, maybe two or three and the cat ). I'd rather they went and bothered someone else and making the house a hardened target helps with this.

That being said, it's comforting that I am allowed to defend my family rather "run away" as our only option.

-Blast

Those in CA may want to note the recent law imposed starting
July 2008 that bans all ammo containing lead (except shotguns)
in the range of the condor (about 20% of the state). It appears even having a 22 and ammunition for it in your home could cost you a year in jail.

I am going to write the Fish and Game commission to disagree with
their new law which goes beyond what the Governator signed.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20071207-1701-ca-californiacondor.html

HUH? I live in NY State, I am neither a cop of a criminal, and could go legally buy a long gun in about 15 minutes. Many in my area have CCW licenses for handguns, and few of the many are cops.

SBRaider,
Sorry, I should have said NYC, not state.
It's almost impossible to get a CCW in the City.
Certainly didn't mean to imply anything about the people who live there, just the Laws.

To further clarify what was said before, I don't want to come across as someone who has a loaded gun in every room of the house for the sake of protection. I don't turn off all the lights at night with a DVD player in front of the window and wait for someone to try to get in for a bit of sadistic target practice either. I have two gun safes, accessible only by keypad entry or backup key. All the ammo is locked in a third safe via abbloy lock. One safe is located in each opposite area of the house so within a very short time I can have a loaded weapon in hand if I need it while taking precautions to keep my kids out of them when not needed. The whole argument of having guns to protect a home goes straight out the window if they are not secured properly. Last thing you need is for a child to shoot you or worst, themselves due to carelessness. The decision to have weapons in the home is a big responsibility and the appropriate actions need to be taken to ensure they do not fall into the wrong hands. Just as a story, I have a friend whose place was broken into while he was at the store. His girlfriend lay drunk on the bed after a party and the robber made away with all of his GUNS and nothing else. It’s a good thing that it was a robber and not a Rapist, but either way she could not defend herself. The robber got the guns and ammo which was in the closet and God only knows where they will turn up next. If secured properly then at least he wouldn’t have gotten them so easily. The next time they are used they may pointed at me while he tries to get into my home. One could argue either way of course, A while back I actually read of a case where someone took a young girl from her bedroom as her parents slept, unaware that anyone was in the house. In this case guns were of little use to anyone except the person committing the crime. In another case, a father was forced to watch at gunpoint as his Daughter was being assaulted by two armed men because he was not armed himself. Food for thought as always.

Solid oak doors and steel doors, Medeco locks, alarm system, motion sensor lights, cameras, laminated glass windows.....that's the first layer of defense. Firearms, knives, and other weapons are a last resort, but still part of the overall picture.

Just like we prepare with multiple layers of gear, your home should be protected by multiple layers of gear. Relying on firearms or steel doors alone is like only having one knife. Sure, it may work most of the time; but if it breaks or fails.....it could be life or death.

You are 100% correct about shooting being a last ditch defense. Like Taurus having had to fire my weapon in the line of duty with (unfortunatly)leathal results, I can tell you there is nothing in my home worth killing for except myself and my family when I'm home. I would allow (during normal times) a person to take anything in my home as long as they left my family alone. Possesions can be replaced, a life cannot.

Ain't it great to be a Texan! I don't want to use a weapon ever again except as recreation, but it's good to know I won't go to prison for defending myself.

Guns in home defense are always going to be a double edged sword. A gun in your hand can deter theft and violence but once laid down it is a prime target for thieves.

In a recent case a man who was known to have guns was overpowered and tortured to extract the combination to his large gun safe. He was then killed.

If he he didn't have such a large collection of guns that were seen as valuable to thugs and/or easily sold on the black market... If it was not known he had such an attractive hoard... If he had not been tricked, forced or persuaded to allow the intruders in... If he had fled out the back instead of becoming a hostage to his battery of guns.... Things would have turned out differently.

Also there is the cautionary tale of a typical accidental shooting related by a police detective in Virginia: The man is in the military. He feels bad about leaving his wife behind and gets her a handgun for protection. He returns home and has a night out with the guys. He stays out drinking far later than he expected. Returning home he realizes he has left his keys inside. He could pound on the door but this would risk upsetting the wife. Remembering a window that is unlocked he proceeds to break in. The wife wakes to someone breaking in. Nothing makes as much noise as a drunk trying to be quiet. She reaches for the gun and bravely advances on the source of the noise. She sees in silhouette a large gibbering and incoherent man thrashing and struggling through a window. In fear of her life she shoots. Realizing what she has done only after the fact.

The police detective relates that this happens with husbands attempting to sneak in but also with teenagers who were thought to be safe in their bed.

Also be careful about assuming that your entirely safe shooting someone in your home.

It may be an open and shut case if the door has been obviously battered down, the guy still has a lethal weapon in his cold-dead hand, the person doing the shooting was up for beatification and the dead guy was on the FBI most-wanted list for home invasion and murder.

Anything less clear and you can expect problems.

The more likely case is that your family and neighbors have been in a feud for some time. The victim was heard saying that what he should do is to go to your house and settle things peacefully. When you answered the door he seemed calm and sober and he claimed to just want to talk. You unlocked the door and he pushed his way in. He is much larger than you are and he is clearly irrational and violent. While screaming that that he has a gun he says that he is 'going to settle it by killing your entire stinking family'. He keeps his hand in his pocket like he has a gun. You think he has one and in fear of your life and the children sleeping in the back bedroom you shoot him.

After the police arrive they note that the door is not damaged and he doesn't have a weapon. Blood taken from the corpse is lost so nobody knows if he was on drugs. There are no other witnesses.

There are people who testify that you had previously said that if you caught him on your property you would shoot him. The victim's family claims that he went to your house to 'bury the hatchet' and that you let him in and then ambushed him while he was seeking peace and unarmed. Of course you are presented as a scheming manipulative villain and the guy you shot as a saint.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from being armed, keeping guns or using one when necessary to protect yourself. But it isn't as simple as buying a gun and keeping it in your nightstand. And certainly a collection of thirty guns is not thirty times as good for home defense as having only one. Particularly if the neighbors know you have them.

It is also clear that just because your state has a 'castle' law your not foot-loose and fancy-free to casually shoot just anyone in your home. Even if your entirely in the right and under direct credible threat you can expect repercussions. Some people who have been cleared after a justified shooting have commented that considering the amount of time, money and legal and civil jeopardy they now wish they had just let the intruder run away.

I am advocating that people think these issues through.

If you keep firearms limit the types and numbers to the sort that is less likely to attract thieves. Limit who knows you have them. Practice information control. No showing off or bragging. On-line or otherwise. Having nothing significant to steal and/or nobody knowing about what you have is the simplest and most cost effective step.

Have a strong perimeter. This is the second most cost effective step. IMHO limiting temptation, information control and sturdy locks in stout construction combined and well used will get you most of the way there.

More esoterically: Plan on how to control your perimeter in difficult scenarios. Expect the tough calls. If someone shows up with your daughter and holds a gun to her head demanding to get into the house what do you do? In some cases there may be no easy answers.

Make sure you have protocols in place and well understood to avoid accidentally shooting people who are supposed to be there but who may be 'out of place'.

Careful familiarization with the weapon and its capabilities can help to keep a user calm and confident enough to fully identify the potential target before they shoot. Calm people in control of tools they feel confident with make better decisions than people who are operating out of fear and hiding behind a weapon they are unfamiliar with.

Even if your entirely in the right and in a 'castle' state having one or more witnesses, person/s or electronic documentation, can go a long way to helping the judge and jury see it your way.

"HOME INVASION" has become a popular and effective method of getting control of home owners.

"SMASH & GRAB" has become a popular and effective method of getting control of business and organizations

Variations are seen every week on the news. The home invasions get little press because they are so common and there are no videos and only a couple of victims. Convenience stores get press because of their video cameras. Larger tragedies such as Columbine, Amish School, Virginia Tech, Russian School, Colorado church get press because of the large body count.

The criminals employ planning and speed. They enter quickly before the victims can get organized.

The Colorado church killings was stopped at four victims dead. A congregation member, VOLUNTEER in the lobby saw the stage unfold. As a former Minnesota police officer and a Colorado concealed weapon permit holder, she was lucky. With no organization, no 911 call, no authority, no pay check, no vest, no back up, no badge and no indecision, she fired.

The minister stated she saved hundreds.

You make your own choice about firearms. No one should make that decision for you. Do not make the decision frivously.
---------------------------------

My wife and I carry every place except the shower.
The front room of our home is a gun shop.

Not to take away from the security guard's heroic action, however this new report states the gunman killed himself after getting shot by the guard.

She stopped him.

He just saved the taxpayers a lot of money.

Sue

Thanks!

Dave

Good question. I live on the ground floor. The landlord had no problem with me putting bars on the windows. Very decorative so it doesn't look like a prison. And they can be opened from the inside for fire exit.

A cop told me of a good method to strengthen doors. First, you need a good door to begin with (and stron bolt lock). In a bad neighborhood, that probably means a steel clad one. When you install it, don't just nail or screw the door frame to the studs. Instead, weld one end of a sturdy steel cable to the door frame. Drill through two or three studs. Then thread the cable through the studs and attach it to a stud two or three down from the door. Do this on both sides. If someone tries to batter the door down the stress is being transmitted to the whole wall.

The guys who serve no-knock warrants hate it when the drug dealers do that. Of course, here again you will need permission from the landlord, but I have never met a landlord who objects to someone improving his/her property.

Also, have a dog. Even an ankle biter. They are great at early warning. Our apartment is right next to the front door. The dog has learned who the tenants are and only barks when a stranger comes in. And he starts barking when they come through the front gate. I know someone is coming before they even get to the front door.

Yeah, but, you know, people need nuclear power reactors!

There are better products for locking the door. Mine front door has ONE lock on it, but it has 2 bolts in the middle, 2 hooks to hook the door closed and metal "claws" on the hinged side. (hinged also mounted on the inside). All operated by one key and one cylinder. The keys are also not the standard type and very hard to pick.

These might be really nice to have:

http://www.maxidor.co.za/maxishutter_domestic.htm

Dave

Very nice but a little bit out of my pay scale. I guess I will stick to my Mossberg, window bars, and my early warning device (called a German Sheppard by most folks) which works better than most alarm systems(lol)

Dogs are good.

Two Summers ago, just before dark, I heard the dogs barking like they had tree'd a raccoon, and then I heard a guy screaming. Being a little concerned, my buddy and I got up off the porch and went to investigate.

When we came around the corner, we found that my four dogs had a tresspasser backed up against the fence at the far end of the yard.

The guy saw us coming and started screaming at us to call off the dogs. I yelled back "They won't listen, they aren't trained". The look of terror on his face was priceless as he desperately tried to scrambled over the fence. It took the guy several attempts to get over the fence, while my dogs barked like crazy inches away from him.

We just stood back and watched.

The dogs never bit him, but I bet the guy needed a change of shorts.

"
The guy saw us coming and started screaming at us to call off the dogs. I yelled back "They won't listen, they aren't trained." The look of terror on his face was priceless as he desperately scrambled over the fence."

Would've made a great video !! LOL


some years ago a man who wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, tried to break into our back door. Granted, I was lucky he didn't have a gun pointed at me, but I surprised him with my trusty K-Bar combat/utility. He dropped the steel rod in his hand, jumped back, screamed and ran like a rabbit. I really thought it was a racoon at the back door.

and there is no question that home invasions have increased. I live in a relatively low crime community and for some reason violent crime has had a marked increase in just the last few months with several shootings, one murder/rape, several home invasions and increased numbers of armed robberies. I am very glad to have the castle laws.

Security at my house has been stepped up.

And in fond rememberance of a neighbor who passed away some years ago: he was a Vietnam vet with a Purple Heart. He looked like a mountain man and sometimes scared people without intending to. He really was a good neighbor.

At the time, someone robbed a Salvation Army donation kettle in front of a store. Our Vietnam vet had volunteered to man one of these kettles. A TV news reporter had a camera on him to discuss the recent robbery incident. With a stern face, he said "I got one thing to say to you Punks. If you want to rob my kettle....just try it!"

That's a take.

(LOL)
I hope if I ever encounter the same situation at my home they do the same as this guy and run away. If not, then I hope I am prepared. A person who lives not far from us happened upon someone in her garage after arriving home from work early. she was standing between him and the only way out of the place. In a panic, the elderly woman grabbed for her cell phone and tried to make a 911 call. Realising this, he made a run and shoved her as hard as he could into the door frame, hit her a few times and then took her phone before running away. She suffered a few injuries, but is fine. Things could have gone a lot worst for her though. I hate to think about what would have happened if he had decided not to run.

I hear many people saying that they would just hope the would-be intruder would just think it too difficult to get in, and decide to go away. That is nice that you would rather not shoot an intruder, but does his choice not to rape your wife because he's having a hard time getting in mean he will rape somebody else's? I am designing my house with an open entrance hall to the front door, so that I can trap any would-be intruder with a portcullis at the open entrance to the hall, then call 911 while he begs to be let go. Get 'em off the streets! Trap 'em or let 'em gain entry and shoot 'em! Everybody should be allowed to kill a home intruder without fear of arrest.