Hi,

A bit of background- I want to buy a sleeping bag. A good one, for year-round use (which basically means I am concerned with keeping warm in winter). I want to use it in New Zealand, where the lowest temperature in winter in my area is around -10°C or so (about 14°F), but usually only a few degree below freezing. I plan to buy a Claytor Jungle Hammock and some sort of thin insulating pad, and I intend to go out and use the hammock anytime of year, but not in awful cold weather if I can avoid it, and not in an area where I am likely to get 'stuck'. However, as a radio amateur I want to prepare myself to assist in Search and Rescue and be able to camp out any time of year (which happens a lot in New Zealand, when people get, um, 'stuck'). As a radio operator I would be placed at base camp, which is generally a public camp site, but it could be anywhere including exposed places.

I have identified three concerns:

1) Down or Synthetic?

2) Temperature rating.

3) Cost.

For item one, I understand the pros and cons of each (down lasts well and packs small, but synthetic will work even when damp). I think I want a small packing size, but it does get damp in NZ.

For item two, I have found a potential bag rated to -6°C, but it is not described as '4 season'. I think it would be adequate for my needs (I wouldn't choose to go out on a -6°C night, but occasionally might be asked to). I intend to get a silk liner for the sleeping bag, which is supposed to improve the rating by 5°C (i.e. down to -11°C), but is that the correct interpretation? If I got cold, I could just wear more layers, right?

The third point is important but not critical. That is to say, I don't mind paying a reasonable amount of money for something that will work properly. I don't want to spend too much on unnecessary features, and I don't want to spend too little and end up with something not quite suitable.

I am living in Japan right now, and I can get hold of just about any equipment. It seems to be an envious position, but really it's overwhelming. I am willing to do the research, but I'd like some practical advice on what to look for, and what to ignore. For example, MontBell's gimmick is the 'mummy back' which has internal elastication to hug the bag to you as you move around, thus eliminating pockets of air inside the bag.

(Oh, and I should say I usually camp in a tent, with a self-inflating mat and an inadequate sleeping bag. Sleeping in a hammock appeals to me, and the sleeping bag must be replaced, but I could use it in summer I suppose).

Thanks in advance,

A

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Those bags look really warm...but heavy.

I laughed when I saw that the 'ultralight' weighs 3 lbs. I couldn't imagine carrying around their FTRSS system. 3 bags and the over bag alone weighs more than my one sleeping bag. Could weigh as much as 17 lbs for that system depending on how it's configured!

I do like the fact that they will ship them vacuum packed...great idea.

Western Mountaineering Ultralite Super 20 degree bag

Down is best. In colder weather supplement with insulated jacket. In warmer weather use it like a quilt.

www.westernmountaineering.com

3lbs, oh my aching back. Now I know how my mules felt packing in a period cowboy bedroll of 6' x 18' canvas, 3 quilts and 4 wool blankets. Again, we buy a knife because it is sharp, not because it has titanium scales and wieghs a few ounces less. Sleeping bags retain warmth. They do not generate it.If you think a shower curtain as carried by a famed ultralight dayhiker is adequate get a shower curtain.If you want to be warm buy insulation, which means a measured amount of loft. I use Wiggys.I compensate for that brutal 3 lbs. by cutting the handles short on my toothbrush and copyright notices on my maps.

I'm not trying to say 3 lbs is too much...I'm trying to say 17 is. You're totally right though Chris. It doesn't matter how light or heavy it is if it can't keep you warm...that's the most important spec of any bag.

My bag is just over 3 lbs and it's just right.

have a look at this KIFARU's bag system ...

Base bag, rated for 20°F (-6°C) weights 2lbs,4oz (1035g).
Add 2oz (57g) for a compression sack ... and it packs very small (check pix on KIFARU web site - link above)
Use the MOB system to add more insulation at will ..

From everything you mentioned I'd suggest the Mountain Hardwear Ultralamina +15. Down is amazing but since New Zealand isn't the driest place on earth I'd stick with synthetic due to the fact that it insulates when wet, dries quickly, and requires less maintenance overall. For a bit more breathability you could always get a silk bag liner.

http://www.rei.com/product/747894

I just replaced an old bag, diddn't think it would be a big deal - just skip down to REI, and pick one up..right?-WRONG!
There are so many more choices today,than there were in the "old days" I was lost!

Anyway, my 40 hrs.or so reaserch lead me to a Marmot Helium, which targets your temp. range (15deg.), but if weight is't an issue you could save some $$.

Hi ame

Selecting a sleeping bag can be difficult despite the huge range of excellent down and synthetic sleeping bags on the market. A top quality down sleeping bag rated at -10 C will weigh around 1.0 Kg. A top quality synthetic sleeping bag rated at -10 C will weigh around 2.0 Kg. If your expecting conditions to be around -10 C then a -15 C specification bag will probably be required. This means a 1.1Kg down or 2.3 Kg synthetic bag. The difference is around 1.2 Kg or to put it another way is around 3500-4000 Kcal heating fuel contained within 1.2 Kg of additional food, which could be carried in addition to a down sleeping bag instead of carrying a synthetic bag.

A 2.3 Kg synthetic bag will be considerable larger when packed down compared to a 1.1 Kg down bag.

One thing to remember is there is no cold just lack of heat. Sleeping bags don't provide any heat. They just keep the heat that is generated from the body confined around the body within the sleeping bag. If you are consuming an extra 1000 Kcal worth of food a few hours before sleeping, the difference in perceivable warmth will be very noticeable especially if it's been a tough tiring day trekking. There is a real difference between being cold, tired and hungry and just being tired.
A down bag is more expensive than a synthetic bag, typically twice as expensive, but this has to taken in context because a down bag will generally last twice as long or longer.

Down bags when they become wet will loose most of its insulation properties, much more so than synthetic bags. You just have to be careful to ensure the down within the bag does not get wet. Many manufacturers of high specification down sleeping bags will use down proof, breathable and water resistant outer ripstop fabrics to help provide protection against this problem. An additional dry storage bag with a roll closure for the down bag is a good idea.
There is also a huge difference in quality of the down available. Down is rated by the loft rating. The best down has a loft rating of 800 (rare European Eider down). The loft ratings vary from 500 through 600, 650, 700 and 750. Anything above 700 is generally considered to be highest quality. US loft figures are generally 100 above European. i.e. an 850 loft bag is equivalent to a 750 European loft rating.

Sleeping bag liners are very useful. They keep the bag cleaner and add additional warm. A silk liner may add 2-3C to the bags rating. The silk liner is also the lightest and most compact. Liners made from Pertex are useful as well being similar to the silk liners. Liners made from Fleece are the warmest adding up to 5-7C but are much heavier (800 grams) and bulky being almost as bulky as another separate single season sleeping bag.

There are some excellent down sleeping bags from companies like Rab, PHDesigns, Marmot, Western Mountaineering and Mountain Equipment etc. They are all excellent manufacturers.

There is an excellent article available at http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=417

I can vouch for this sleeping bag from MEC. Great bag which I have used with temps hovering around -20C...YMMV on the warmth as we are all different when it comes to cold tolerance.

MEC also has some good info on sleeping bags here. Look for the links in the top right corner.

I'll second the western mountaineering bags. I use to have a North face bag that was rated to 10 below zero and when it got down in the 20's (above zero) on a pad I was freezing my donkey off. Don't get me wrong it is a comfortable bag but when the temps dropped it is very lacking. After some long researching and talking with people out in the field I bought a Western Mountaineering Bristlecone Super MF. Man, I could not believe the difference, it's like comparing a neon to a Cadillac. Western Mountaineering rates there bags very conservatively, the rule of thumb is you can push there bags 10 degrees more than there rating. Yes, they are very expensive, but with a lifetime warranty and a killer reputation it was worth every cent. Definitely the last bag I would ever need. The one I got you can use as a blanket or a mummy bag, extra room for me inside plus cloths space at the feet. It's like an oven in it and has plenty of zippers to regulate the temps down to 10 below. There is no question I could easily take it to 20 below zero with some long johns and socks. It is by far the most comfortable bag I've ever had and I can unzip it and use it for a blanket for the misses on trips. These are as hardcore as you can get IMHO. Did I mention it is expensive and hot, but I looked as it as in my house I have a good mattress that I sleep on that helps on the back and makes me get a good night sleep, so I look at any out doors the same, I use it every where I go and put it in a watershed pack (http://www.drybags.com/home.html) and it's all but fireproof. All my bob and equipment is in watershed packs. They are rated at 300 feet of total water submersion and are currently used by Navy seals. My buddy who is a seal had recommended these bags. I ordered one and loved it then I started retrofitting my bob to be Katrina proof. The bag is black and has a purge valve on it and holds 6400 cubic in of space and has a backpack harness on it.
http://www.thewaterproofstore.com/paragonpack.html

http://www.drybags.com/home.html




http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=40

The area I live in is very wet for much of the year and down just doesn't cut it - in fact I feel it is downright (pun intended) dangerous. Synthetic is a safer option and a couple of pounds with a little bulk is worth the tradeoff to my safety.

Another brand to consider that I've used heavily is Eastern Mountain Sports. EMS has several bags called the "Mountain Light" series. They have everything from 40 degree to -40 degree (F) bags. They are made with 750 or 800-fill down, with a Pertex waterproof outer layer. I know EMS makes some synthetic bags also, but, I happen to prefer the packability of the down. I've slept comfortably in one of the 20 degree bags with a Reactor Liner bag at about -5. I had a fleece union suite on, with another fleece pullover and a watch cap, and heavy wool socks.

http://www.ems.com/

I've camped/hiked with folks using other gear that people mentioned, and they seemed comfortable in Mountain Hardware, very popular. North Face is a "name", but, maybe not the first choice. It seems like it's living on reputation more than performance these days. Even their tents aren't built as well, see the lack of reinforcement around the pole attachments, and some of the plastic fittings.

Make sure you invest in a good 4 season pad. I use a Thermarest ProLite 4. Sometimes I've just used a closed cell foam roll, they can't develop a leak, and actually are more versatile than the self inflating pads, but, I don't find them as comfortable.

I also live in a wet area (Florida) and the down has worked great here and also when we travel up north as well. I use the watershed bag to keep it dry when traveling, camping, etc.. and it's overkill but if we ever had any floods or a Katrina type disaster all the gear will remain dry. I can even dive down to 300 feet in salt water with that bag and still have a nice warm bag. I see what you are saying about the syn vs down but I've been in the synthetic bags here as well wet and the bag was just as useless.

Here's a good comparison how down vs synthetic when it gets wet.
(The down bag was under water for 4 hours and was used)

http://www.trailcast.org/podcasts/trailcast-17-Jan-30-2006.mp3

i gave up on down some years ago when the poly bags became more
advanced..down is fine for mountain-dry cold but i found that
a couple weeks in canoe country would reduce them to flat
soggy mats..you can never stay in a camp long enought to get them really dry and around the lakes the air is damp all the time..for cold weather camps i put a poly mummy inside a poly
rectangle bag and sleep in soxs and long johns..i know the
folks putting a BOB together will want the lightest warm bag
they can find,but thats my take on sleeping bags..

It would be hard to recommend a bag because a lot of it really is personal preference. I think any high quality sleeping bag will probably work for your application.

1) Down vs Synthetic - You probably know the pros and cons of each in terms of weight, size, and performance. I personally like down, it's still the best insulator out there, and I'm willing to sacrifice the wet weather performance for lighter weight and smaller size. I'm still using the same down bag I bought 14 years ago, and it's still as good as any of the new sleeping bags on the market. A similar 14 year old synthetic bag would be considered be an old blanket by now. Synthetics are getting closer, and will continue to improve every year.

How much wet weather do you deal with? An ocasional rain shower in the mountains or are you out on in ocean storms for extended periods? Down is useless when wet, but I've had to sleep in a wet synthetic bag and it's not much better. If you think there's a high likelyhood of it getting wet, then synthetics are the logical choice, because it at least has some chance of drying in your lifetime. A down bag will perform well in damp conditions as long as you take reasonable care. The microfiber shells on the bag do a pretty good job of repelling accidental spills and or dunks. I found out while trying to wash my bag, I had a really hard time getting the insulation wet because the bag just wanted to float on top of the water. You really have to try hard to get it completely soaked though. Using the bag in humid conditions for long term is a differnet story.

Feathered Friends still make some of the best quality down bags. Stephensons Warmlite used to make some good ones, I don't know if they're still in business.

2) Temperature rating - You could buy a subzero bag for the coldest temperature you think you would possibly encounter, but if you want to use it year round you'll be too hot for 3 out of 4 seasons. I don't know what the average weather is like over there, I'd aim for the average winter conditions, and add some accessories for the extreme weather. A good insulating pad will help a lot, and if you're using a hammock, get two. I have a silk liner to extend the range of my bag, it works but I absolutely hate using it. I'm fine in a mummy bag, but the liner makes it feel really claustrophobic. If you do get one, find one with at least a half zip, or you'll have to wiggle yourself in and out of the bag through the top. A bivy sack will also lower the temperature range of your bag. For colder weather, a draft collar is really nice to have, but some people don't like the feeling of them. Also, the ratings for most manufacturers are just a guide, I wouldn't rely on them too much.

3) Cost is inversely proportional to size and weight. A decent down bag will set you back about $200-$300 (slightly less for synthetic), a really good bag could cost $400, and premium bags go even higher. At that point you're really paying more to save maybe an ounce or two. If you think you'll get into a situation where your life is going to depend on your sleeping bag, spend as much as you need. If a bad bag will only cause minor inconvience, I'd save some money and just get a decent one.

Also, a sleeping bag is only one part of the equation. Even the best bags in the world aren't gonna do much good sleeping outside directly in the snow. The mat and shelter is just as important.

One other thought. Alot of backpackers are liking the Montbell superstretch bags.

http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=28

I did a quick read through the other replies, so if someone already mentioned something similar sorry....Have you looked at a modular system with a possible bivy sack? I have one for the military and they're great. It gives you two different sleeping bags with a fairly good all weather bivy sack. I'd have to check on the temp specs, but I've used the inner lining bag or patrol sack down to 30 deg F and the whole sytem down past 0 F. You can always adapt to carrying part or the whole system. I have seen them online for around $200-700.

My experience has been that I must fit test it first. I am too big for most standard bags, and even worse for mummy style. My current bag is a slightly tapered rectangular oversize weighing a little over 4 lbs and rated to 0 degrees. I have yet to test it short of the home trials, so I am not sure if it will be up to snuff for warmth retention or not. It cost me $60 on sale, which is about all I intend to spend on a sleeping bag.

I prefer synthetic fill to down. I've had the miserable experience of using a down sleeping bag in the wet, and will not willingly do that again. Qualofil seems to be the best for weight to warmth that I've found, but these newer synthetics also sound pretty good, though I've not tried any of them yet.

As with all my previous bags, I find something that fits and the specs look right, the construction quality is there and I will take a chance on it. If it doesn't work out, I will go back and find something else. You really won't know until you get it in the field and put it to the test if it will do what you need, but with experience you will have a better idea what to expect.

There's a big difference between the bag you will use at base camp and the one you will pack into the hills. Throwing a 20 lb stuffed canvas sleeping bag atop a king size cot in a wall tent with a wood stove is a luxury. Backpacking items are almost always a compromise, but there's plenty of functional stuff out there that makes for decent enough survival gear if you happen to have it on hand at the time.