When teaching knot tying, please make sure that the students dress the knots (no not with little clothes <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />), but so one line does not cross over another. This is especially true with a Figure 8 on a bight. Significant strength in the knot can be lost. If you decide on the Bowline, please teach it as a Long Tail Bowline or with the appropriate overhand safety added. Pete