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#113683 - 11/26/07 06:41 PM How do you market a survival product?
teacher Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 988
Hi all,

I've got a couple of ideas for new/ radically modified survival products and was wondering how you bring products like that to market? Do I need to think about patents? Non-disclsoure agreements? Working models? other?

Teacher

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#113730 - 11/27/07 01:10 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: teacher]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I don't know the answer to that, but the "modified" part could mean trouble if you don't handle it properly.

If you use any part of any existing (current) patented design and modify it, you have to get permission from the owner of the patent for the part that they already have covered. You can't modify something and say it's unique.

As a rough explanation: If you take someone else's design and change the color or the size or the material or the handle or the logo, it's still their design. The acid test is setting both the original and the copy in front of a patent judge, and the judge asks himself if the copy is a ripoff of the original.

But if it's unique, I "heard" that a "patent pending" is cheaper than a patent. A friend of mine got his patent last year, and it cost him about $40,000.

Sue

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#113755 - 11/27/07 02:50 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: Susan]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Hi Teacher,

You need to do your research.

http://gb.espacenet.com/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe?Action=FormGen&Template=gb/en/advanced.hts

Chances are your idea isn't original at all.

Get an NDA drawn up. Do not talk to or discuss with anyone your idea without first getting your NDA signed and witnessed.

World wide patents will cost around $100,000 to $200,000.

Also remember that if your idea has the potential to make millions of dollars, your patent lawyer will most likey try and steal your idea from you as well and sell it under the table on to the competition whose millions of dollars you'll be taking out of their pockets.

Probably the best way to proceed is just get your idea/product developed and manufactured in China (there are hundreds of factories in China, who will manufacture your product, no questions asked), sell and market it worldwide ASAP and if any patent competition decides to sue, offer a proportion of the profits to the plaintif to buy him/her off especially if you really have infringed their IP rights (this doesn't work with the big boys though). This why the research at the very beginning is so important.

And finally rememeber, the world is full of second rate ideas, but its the proper marketing of those second rate ideas, which makes the money. There are a also few companies in this world you don't want to mess with unless you've got really good life insurance.

Oh and you should be prepared to lose the shirt off your back at any time especially if you go down the patent route.

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#113756 - 11/27/07 02:56 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: Susan]
tacticalight Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/18/07
Posts: 10
Hi teacher,

I have some insight into your question:

Unfortunately, this sort of thing gets expensive quite quickly. The first item you must know is that to patent something, it must meet the following requirements:

1. It must be novel, i.e. there can be no "prior art," essentially this means that if you apply for a patent, a patent examiner is going to search long and hard for some way to discredit your invention as already existing in some shape or another. Even something as trivial as a drawing on the back of a cocktail napkin can count against you as prior art. Also, if your invention uses somebody else's patented invention, you must get their permission (and you must be careful in discussing your ideas with them and others as they could easily steal it and pursue patents on it as their own). This concept differs between getting protection in the U.S. versus getting protection in the rest of the world (rest of the world requires absolute novelty while the U.S. gives you one year after public disclosure of your invention before you must file an application)

2. non-obvious, i.e. you cant take a previous invention and try to patent an obvious application or modification to it

3. useful, your invention should have no problem qualifying as useful so i wouldnt worry about this category smile

Patent costs can be quite pricey, and generally include the hiring of a patent attorney to determine patentability. Typical costs of this include:
patent search $400 - $500+
patentability opinion $1,500 – $2,000
Freedom to Operate/Right to Practice opinion $2,500+
prepare patent application $8,000+ (U.S. only)


Thus, inventors often try to sell their invention to companies to avoid as much of this as possible. Getting your foot in the door with companies might not be easy but if you do, just make sure you only discuss your invention with them under one of the following conditions:

1. be sure you only give them a non-enabling disclsure (i.e. you discuss what the thing does but not how you make it or how it does it)

or

2. Have them sign a non-disclosure agreement


In addition, depending on where you work, you may have signed an agreement upon your employment that the company owns any intellectual property created by you while you work there. Make sure this isn't the case or that you have permission from them to pursue this as your own before you go any farther.


Sorry if this paints a bleak picture, and sorry for the pages and pages of info I left out, but I think this gives you the general idea that it is not quite "simple" to patent something. Nonetheless, if you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them. If you have some free time, poke around the USPTO website (United States Patent and Trademark Office) and google related terms for more info. Good luck!!

P.S.

I just realized I didn't fully respond to two things mentioned by you and sue:

1. "working models" are no longer required as the USPTO already has a huge building full of the working models of previous inventions and simply doesn't have room. In your application, you need simply to "enable" the invention, i.e. explain with words and drawings exactly how it works and what the best way to make it is. However, if an examiner disputes your explanation, having a working model on hand would be a quick way to prove him wrong!

2. "Patent pending" can only be used if you have a patent application filed and are waiting for a response. It offers no real protection, but tends to deter competition as they will assume a patent is on its way so there is no use in copying your invention (by the time they get their version to market, your patent might have issued and they will be unable to sell their product). You still have to have gone through the process (and cost) of applying for a patent before you are legally allowed to use "patent pending" on a product

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#113779 - 11/27/07 06:23 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: teacher]
redflare Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 647
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: teacher
Hi all,

I've got a couple of ideas for new/ radically modified survival products and was wondering how you bring products like that to market? Do I need to think about patents? Non-disclsoure agreements? Working models? other?

Teacher


What the other folks said: the odds are usually against you, but perseverance is important in any business venture.

An absolutely great resource for your research and free advice is SCORE - Service Core of Retired Executives. They give workshops, and provide one-on-one counseling to all sizes of business, from a start up to corporate size.

When we were starting up, we used their counseling services extensively.

If you do decide to market your product, keep us in mind for distribution, since we are always looking for new cool gizmos. laugh

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#113787 - 11/27/07 10:20 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: teacher]
picard120 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 763
you can market it as high tech device. it must serve the user in unique way.

The British secret service is looking for high tech device to counter terrorism. I have post link for you. This market is booming right now.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/071126/tecnology/tech_security_startups_col

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#113802 - 11/27/07 03:08 PM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: Susan]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Susan
I don't know the answer to that, but the "modified" part could mean trouble if you don't handle it properly.

If you use any part of any existing (current) patented design and modify it, you have to get permission from the owner of the patent for the part that they already have covered. You can't modify something and say it's unique.

As a rough explanation: If you take someone else's design and change the color or the size or the material or the handle or the logo, it's still their design. The acid test is setting both the original and the copy in front of a patent judge, and the judge asks himself if the copy is a ripoff of the original.

But if it's unique, I "heard" that a "patent pending" is cheaper than a patent. A friend of mine got his patent last year, and it cost him about $40,000.

Sue


You can patent an improvement on another patent. There are no new ideas...no innovation.

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#114006 - 11/29/07 02:39 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"Probably the best way to proceed is just get your idea/product developed and manufactured in China (there are hundreds of factories in China, who will manufacture your product, no questions asked..."

I don't know that that is a good idea, since China is one of the worst infringers on patents. I suspect that they could take your idea, your design, mfg it for you, and be selling THEIR version faster and wider than yours.

(Oh, am I being cynical? Again?)

Sue

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#114015 - 11/29/07 03:04 AM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: Susan]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: Susan
"Probably the best way to proceed is just get your idea/product developed and manufactured in China (there are hundreds of factories in China, who will manufacture your product, no questions asked..."

I don't know that that is a good idea, since China is one of the worst infringers on patents. I suspect that they could take your idea, your design, mfg it for you, and be selling THEIR version faster and wider than yours.

(Oh, am I being cynical? Again?)

Sue


Even patents are being knocked off. I just saw a catalog from China that had every headlamp on the market cloned.
Bill

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#114047 - 11/29/07 01:07 PM Re: How do you market a survival product? [Re: Susan]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: Susan
I suspect that they could take your idea, your design, mfg it for you, and be selling THEIR version faster and wider than yours.


S'funny, something very much like that happened to a company I know of.

Its ironic how the most aggressively entrepreneurial people in world right now are in a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. country.

Asia seems to be the wild west of intellectual property. I'm all for a laissez-faire market, but they take things to an extreme.

For an interesting take on patents, try this article:
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

More articles here:
http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp

As usual, take it with a grain of salt. Don Lancaster has been in the "small scale tech startup" phase of business for about the last thirty years.


Edited by thseng (11/29/07 01:08 PM)
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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