I am working on a project that will require a brief set of wilderness survival instructions for potential use by a novice with little or no experience in the wilderness. I want to include the 4 most useful knots they might make use of. I have some ideas, but though it would be valuable to get your collective thoughts on which 4 knots you would consider absolutely essential as you improvise shelter and such in a survival situation with very limited equipment and supplies, as might be found in a very basic PSK. The best would also have the attributes of being easy to illustrate, multi-functional, idiot proof, well you get the idea. Thanks for your input.

Show the figure eight and some of its variations. Versatile, strong, and highly adaptable. If you mess up you will probably tie an overhand knot, which is also strong, but just hard to untie. Perhaps the clove hitch, in addition.

As a scout leader of "idiots" i have leant the easiest knots

1) clove hitch - taught as a "P" and a "Q" - because they look like them!

2)Bowline-useful - although looks slightly complicated- method is simple

3)Figure of eight - very useful and very strong

4)Reef - easy-very useful in first aid

A lashing would probably be useful and i'd suggest-asquare lashing-started with a clove hitch - simple and effective

My opinions

Mark

Doug,

1. Square knot: simple, strong, easily tied.

2. Two half hitches: a useful slip knot, easily tied.

3. Bowline: a good stable loop, not that hard to tie.

4. Taut line: very useful to tighten tent & other guy ropes.

5. Sheetbend: a wonderful splicing knot. I know you only asked for 4, but this is an old favorite to which I frequently resort.

Good luck,

John

Don't forget the possibility of the knot cards from Knot Cards you could always just include the cards for the knots you decide on.

BTW, my choices would be:

1. Bowline
2. Figure Eight
3. Sheet Bend
4. Clove Hitch

Figure 8 as a stopper knot.

Figure 8 on a bight - for creating a secure loop on the end of a rope.

Clove Hitch - Good general that can be tied and untied quickly

Butterfly knot - An omni-directional loading knot. Useful for creating a loop anywhere in a line that can be loaded in any direction. Great for creating a 2:1 mechanical advantage in taking up slack in a line. It can take a little practice to tie, but once learned, a most useful knot.

Pete
<img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

!. Palomar 2. Square 3. Bowline 4. Taut line

Back in the dark days, I was a caver and taught canoeing to boy scouts. Based on that and trying to teach my family how to use something other than overhand and half hitches and I have to pick just four knots, I vote for: square, clove, tautline and either bowline or figure-8-loop.

-Torus

1. bowline
2. clove hitch
3. carrick bend
4. a lashing to connect crossed beams

For the bowline there is a technique to tie it quite easily (tieing it is much easier than describing it):
You start with a bight and cross the ends with the long end on top. Then you pull a loop from the long end through the bight. It´s important to pull the loop to the top. Then you push the short end through the loop and adjust the length of the short end . At last you pull the long end untill the loop slips through.
I used this technique for training youngsters in our unit. Everyone got it right the first time.
The end to the left is the long end and the portions to the top form the loop.


Here is a link to the illustration of the bowline knot

Doug,

Good topic. Let me suggest that we first identify types of knots by use and then nominate candidates in those "use categories". For example, a fixed loop would be a "use category"; joining two cords together would be another; an adjustable loop would be another; and so on.

It is MUCH more difficult to teach a novice most knots from a static drawing than by a hands-on "tell-show-do"

Have written the above... a few knots for consideration:

2+ half hitches (Yeah, I prefer things like tautline hitches for some specific applications, but 3 or 4 half hitches will hold and still be adjustable)

fisherman's or double fisherman's - drawback is the relative "permanance" of these after a significant strain, but OTOH neither will let go from alternating slack-tension and at least the fisherman's is readily comprehended from a drawing by most folks. For some reason, about 1/2 the population seems to have mental problems comprehending a sheet bend or double sheet bend from a static diagram...

clove hitch OR timber hitch (tough call; maybe for this "audience" a timber hitch might be favored)

I second the figure-8 variants - although personally I will use a proper bowline for some things and figure-8 or 9 fixed loop variant for other things, the basic 8 theme can quickly show a stopper knot, a figure - 8 on a bight, and a re-woven figure-8. A figure 8 on a bight can also be used where one would normally use a butterfly - and it still works even if muffed into an overhand on a bight.

water knot - if there is a vehicle or an aircraft, there will be flat webbing

Most folks can tie their shoes; I wouldn't waste space on a square knot - it has limited proper applications and for where it is proper, most folks will naturally kludge up some facsimile that will hold well enough. Too many folks mis-use the square knot, so why draw attention to it?

I'm not sure that 4 will do...

- Fasten two cords together to make a longer cord
- tie off two ends of cords to finish something (e.g lashings, bundles, bandages, tie shoe laces, etc)
- fixed loop tied & draped over something
- fixed loop bent around something and tied
- attach cord to something approximately cylindrical in cross section
- fasten flat webbing together *** maybe not very important ***
- adjustable loop(s)
- stopper knot(s) *** maybe not very important ***

back to work for me...

Tom

I would go with

Figure 8
Double Fisherman
Constrictor
Taut Line Hitch

Figure 8 as a stopper, middle loop, end loop, uses are nearly endless and it is easy to learn and an overall good knot.

Double Fisherman to join lines. You may have several bits and pieces of line that you need to lengthen. This is easy and secure for lines of similar size.

Constrictor to lash stuff. Small amount of cord required for exceptional binding force. Nearly cannot remove.
As no one mentioned it already here is a visual from Alan Folsom
Knots



Taut Line for tensioning supports, pulling tarps etc.

When teaching knot tying, please make sure that the students dress the knots (no not with little clothes <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />), but so one line does not cross over another. This is especially true with a Figure 8 on a bight. Significant strength in the knot can be lost. If you decide on the Bowline, please teach it as a Long Tail Bowline or with the appropriate overhand safety added. Pete

The knots I use most regularly for shelter purposes:

1. Square
2. Figure 8
3. Bowline
4. Taut line

Not in any order. And, come to think of it, the square or reef knot isn't so much for shelter as for first aid -- a flat knot for bandages.

Bear

1. Bowline
2. Square
3. Two Half Hitches
4. Taut Line Hitch

Frank

I wanted to come up with my list before looking at the others, so here it is:

1. Round-turn with 2 half-hitches
2. Clove hitch
3. Bowline
4. Square lashing or Cross-lashing

Max - I hope I'm not offending you here, but while this technique may be easy to learn, I don't see how you can use it to tie a bowline around a fixed object, which is the main function of a bowline. It may work great for teaching kids how to make a loop in the end of a rope, but if I followed your directions correctly, I think it will make it more difficult for them subsequently to learn how to tie a bowline properly (e.g. around a tree or a fence rail).

Just my $.02 worth.

As a part time idiot I would suggest the figure 8 for general tying and a square knot or sheet bend for joing two ropes.

My $.02

Chris

Climbers over the years have moved from the bowline to the figure 8 as the preferred knot because of documented cases of unsecured bowlines untying. For survival applications, I think it is more efficient and effective to teach one knot and then show how its variations can join two knots together, can form a loop at either the end or the middle of the rope, etc.

One important variable is the type of rope involved. In non-synthetic ropes, the bowline is apparently more effective, but who uses hemp or manila anymore? A very common rope is yellow poly(propylene?/ethylene). Whatever type of plastic comprises this rope, it is pure garbage, and it holds most conventional knots rather poorly. Also, are we using knots to lash up a shelter or to cobble up some sort of emergency rappel? Knots good for one application are death traps for another. This information is just as important as the knots themselves.

Thanks to all who replied and offered suggestions. Please don't feel insulted if I don't answer each of you individually. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will respond to a couple posts where appropriate.

Pete,

When you have only limited space to impart information, you have to ensure it works without any added explanation. It's easy when you have room, one reason I love the web, a real PITA when space if very limited.

Tom,

Four will have to do, and it may be that even that is more than I will have room for. This project is a real challenge as I try to prioritize stuff and still cover most bases in the very limited space available.

Don'tcha just love those animated knot tying illustrations. Never ceases to amaze me.

Unfortunately, that isn't an option.

No offence taken.
I added a link and an illustration (Mozilla didn´t display the image <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />). Maybe it´ll be clearer with that. The actual loop of the bowline knot is formed by the short end and you can put that loop around any object before tightenng the knot. Actually the fit around the object will be much better with this technique.

Hikerdon - I concur with everything you wrote on the topic, so I guess I'm ranting, er, rambling to read my own words... actually, to expand on what you wrote AND to take a good natured poke at one of my favorite group of nuts (and I guess I'm on the fringe of that group, LoL)

<<Climbers over the years have moved from the bowline to the figure 8 as the preferred knot because ...>>

Yep! Because whatever - I've heard several "reasons", yours being, I think, the best and most compelling one. And... *some* enthusiastic climbers are knot and gear snobs - it's a fickle, faddy group... salted with older folks who are less certain that this or that is the *ONLY RIGHT WAY* <grin> There are even wierd regional preferences for one use or another - like a "Bugaboo prussic" (which is actually pretty handy) Since I learned to climb anywhere with simple and unsophisticated equipment, these sorts of antics and "professions of faith" continue to amuse me greatly...

A side spur - I can hardly find my preferred style of harness any more because some poor soul used one wrong one time and fell to his death - only the legal team that sued the company to bankruptcy won on that. I'm confident you know the event/ company... and the fact that properly used, that was one of the strongest and most bullet proof style of harnesses ever made. Gee, climbing can be dangerous - who would have guessed???

I've trained scads of young men (and some young women) some aspects of climbing over the years with gear ranging from "modern primative" to the latest. A lot depends on the individual. There is nothing wrong with a bowline; many "nouveau experts" claimed, among other things, that it was not as strong as a figure 8. Hmmm... recently challenged, the facts now in show that it is marginally stronger than a figure 8 - but not enough to matter. So much for "experts"... Nonetheless, for the last 12 or so years, I've only trained folks to use the figure 8 for climbing applications - even though I personally prefer a bowline in MANY applications - properly tied (backup or stopper knot, which is the ONLY way I was ever taught to use it for anything more involved than a guyline on a tarp grommet)

But no one unknowledgable in these "ETS" circumstances should be climbing anyway - I didn't read that in Doug's note. The bowline is a "pure" classic knot - very elegant - just a loop and a bight, and even after the most horriffic rope-wrecking strain can be untied IF YOU KNOW HOW. It has a large number of useful variants, but those are not at all obvious and often are hard for some folks to understand how to tie even when walked through the process.

OTOH, as you stated, the figure 8 variants are for the most part fairly obvious - I've seen many folks "discover" useful variants in idle moments, especially once a re-woven figure 8 is taught. That is, the knot itself suggests several of its useful variants. Sure, it uses more of the rope than a proper bowline and it IS very important to ensure that it is dressed properly in ultimate strength applications - unlike a bowline, it can be tied "properly" and yet not be dressed properly. But I figured that for the most part, these are not the applications Doug has in mind.

Long-winded way of concuring with you - I believe that the figure 8 stuff is better suited for Doug's appplication than the bowline. For the non-climbers reading this: Folks, get someone to show you applications of figure 8 variants and draw your own conclusions - but you'll have to set aside your personal paradigms to be objective.

Another thing that you mentioned - the polyxxxxx ropes - eeewww! Those slippery and stiff rascals can work loose just about anything, even a splice and they are extremely bad when the tension varies - slack off and it practically unties itself in front of your eyes. Here's a tip - sieze the finished knots, even with a couple of wraps of duct tape. But I still hate the stuff...

Not to confuse the matter - but my favorite utility cord in the general range of 1/4 inch (~ 6mm) is polyester - Dacron, by one trade name. Not to be confused with polyethylene, polypropylene, etc. Paracord is second favorite (albeit smaller diameter), followed (at GREAT cost increase) by climber's accessory cord. The Dacron stuff is much more durable than the nylons and it all has a great hand - did I mention cheap? Emergency gear has 550 paracord, but my regular non-climbing use stuff is 80% Dacron...

OK - far enough off topic now that I can quit <grin>

Regards,

Tom

1. sheet bend
2. round turn and 2 half hitches
3. clove hitch
4. figure 8 loop

I 'play' with many more knots, but most of them can be replaced with the above 4 knots. I agree that a lashing (square) is quite important.

Ok, okay - I got it now.

The long end (technically, I believe it's called the standing end?) is the one going off to the left in your diagram; and the short end, or running end, is the one going straight up. Presumably, it wraps around a fixed object that's out of the picture, then comes back down to finish the bowline in step 3.

I just tied one your way, and another one my way. After examining them both side by side, I realized they were identical. (Except - being pedantic here - I believe the illustration you have actually ties a "left-handed bowline" - one in which the short end lies outside the loop. In a "true" bowline, the short end should lie inside the loop. (In step 3, the running end should be fed through the loop from the bottom, instead of the top as you have it. But I think that's a very minor nitpick - I've never heard that a left-handed bowline is either superior or inferior to a "true" one.

I'll have to learn this - I'm not sure that it's any easier for me than the way I already know, but several of the cadets at our Wilderness Survival camp in August were extremely frustrated by their inability to learn (or rather, the instructor's inability to teach :< ) this "simple" knot.

Believe it or (k)not, a left handed bowline is considered to be 50% weaker than the "real" thing by a lot of classic references in climbing/caving literature. I believe the current opinion is that a left handed bowline is a tiny bit, maybe 10%, weaker. This is such that if the rope breaks, it is probably going to break somewhere other than at the knot where use or abuse has caused hidden damage. If a modern rope used anywhere near correctly fails, it is almost always due to cotnact with a relatively sharp edge under load

Square knot, taught-line, figure eight, timberhitch. I rarely use anything else.

I guess not having the picture for the first try was a serious disadvantage (usually I explain it with a rope in my hands).
The left-handed bowline was the version we were taught in training. I think I´ll reconsider the use of it due to hikerdon´s post.
I agree that it´s not significantly easier for a trained person to use my way. It may just save some frustration for the untrained ones.

Sorry to top an old post, but i just found my way to these forums and knots are 1 of the things i love to play with.

I'd like to break down the reasons along with my picks, so here goes:

1.square or reef knot- its simple and it can be rolled over for easy removal, hence its use in first aid. But also very desirable in other circumstances.

2.bowline & sheetbend- if you look at these 2 knots they are actually the same. by learning 1 you learn both which extends its usefulness and cuts down the learning curve. So, you have a knot which can join 2 lines or create a solid loop.

3. clovehitch & 2half hitches. Same principle as above. when you tie 2(or preferably 3) half hitches you are actually tieing sequential clove hitches around the line. This adds multiple uses to one knot.

4.Alpine Butterfly knot. The other 3 knots provide for joining lines, creating loops, lashing, and tensioning. This 1 allows you to create a non slipping loop in the middle of a line.. It can be used for a compound tensioning system, tieing a safety loop, several in a row can form a rope ladder. And its very easy to learn. But most books i've seen dont show the easy technique. So, bear with me and I'll give it a shot....
First its important to note that you dont need access to either end of the rope. Turn your palm up. Lay the line across your palm, wrap it once around your hand. Now wrap it again around your hand but lay the line between the first two. Take the wrap closest your fingers and pull it across your palm and over the other 2, then tuck it back under them. keeping hold of the piece you tucked under(this will be your loop), slide it all of your hand and work it tight. You should have a loop coming out of your line perpendicularly.
Hope this helps.


Dave

Doug, here is yet another list:
1. Bowline with "Yosemite Finish" backup
2. Clove Hitch with backup- typically a Double Overhand stopper knot
3. Figure 8 Bend, backed up with a Double Overhand knot at each end
4. Butterfly Knot, a multi-directional loop knot, very useful for tensioning a line

I almost always backup the knots from habit and previous training, and it's a good way to keep the practice-- so I guess that the Double Overhand used as a backup knot brings this list up to five knots..... but I couldn't part with any of them, so five it is.

Tim H., Edmonds, WA

That is an excellent description (Alpine Butterfly Knot) - I followed it exactly and it worked the very first time.

Way cool knot <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />