I recently watched a report on CNN or a simular outlet, about how Kidnappers attack, stop, and kidnap people out of moving cars.
It was a real eye opener.
In some ways, it reminded me of those old MAD MAX films.

The people in training, would swarm upto a target vehicle on motorcycles with two riders per cycle. The passenger rider, carries an automatic rifle, and points it at the cars driver, and passengers. If they do not stop, they shoot out a couple of tires, or fire at the engine compartment. The car stops. The rifle carrying riders dismount as soon as the car is disabled.
There are at least four cycles in the inital attack.
As the terrorists are starting to pull people out of the car, a secondary vehicle roars up. It is a small pickup truck with men in the box pointing a heavy machine gun at the car.
Then a van type vehicle enters the scene, and the aforementioned armed cyclists, push their victims into the van. The van speeds off, the cyclists depart along with the small truck. It all happens in a matter of less than two minutes.
They usually will kill every one but the intended victim of the kidnapping.

It is a quick, unforgiving, deadly, precision take down.
It is for a lack of better discription, a pack of preditory
animals making a kill...


Here in America this situation could very easily be pulled off.

Quite frankly, I do not know how you'd out manueuver a group of
attacking malcontents bent on robbing you, or kidnapping you.

Four automatic rifles aimed at you from all sides in pretty intimidating. Blown out tires, or a shot up engine is going to stop you whether you want to stop or not. A pick up truck pulling up,and aiming a big ass machine gun at you as well is going to force most to comply.

Thus, the whole senario got me to thinking. How would you stop a group of bad boys from running you down, and disabling your vehicle,and then robbing you of everything you have? ( i.e. Mad Max tactics )

Even if you had others in your vehicle shooting at them as you fled, the likely hood that you'll have a high speed crash, or get killed by their gun fire is high. Short of having an armored car/truck, I think the winning bet is going to be on the marauding hordes.

I think, that once out on the roads, it will not be easy going. I think we have to seriously think about the idea that we may have to contend with highway ambushes/ robbery in some fashion. I think secondary roads might be just as dangerous as the main highways too. Bad men in big heavy trucks, with powerful V8 engines ,armed with big guns will stop any SUV/car without a problem. Count on it!

Even the nations Police forces have perfected the high speed bump and push action, to knock a car off the road using just a police cruiser. They even knock trucks and vans off the road..

How do you defend yourself on the road in your vehicle?

This problem deserves some real attention...

The terrorists training in Pakistan have brought this to our attention folks...

This is why our officals travel in heavily armed convoys with Black heliocopters following overhead. WOW! Lucky them.
The every day shmuck is on his own...

WAR DOG out!

In South Africa (where kidnapping and car jacking and murder all go hand in hand...and are very common), it's legal to have active defenses on your car. Flame throwers, electrified panels, pepper spray ejectors, etc. are all OK. From what I've been told if your car kills somebody who's trying to carjack/kidnap you, it's less than a slap on the wrist if it goes to court.

Armored car sales are also one of the highest anywhere in South Africa.

I'm not sure this is really something most of us need to be worried about. I mean, does this ever happen in the US? Maybe if you're traveling abroad you should be concerned.

Somehow, I don't think the little lady is going to let you weld armor plating on the family Lexus RX 330. Once you start cutting gun ports in the sides, adding pepper sprayers, electric defenses, etc, you'll most likely end up being served divorce papers from the friend of the court!

Try talking her into trading in the family Ford Freestyle on a used surplus Bradley Armored Vehicle, and she'll shoot you herself!

A Jeep Grand Cherokee, or a Dodge Mini Van is no match for 50 cal. gun fire...

No SUV on the planet can out run a Mini-Guns rage...

Nope, we're screwed!

Maybe not yet it doesn't happen, but it could when all hell breaks out, and law and order are out the window!

Think about the LA riots...they stopped cars and mugged the drivers.

Just be poor and insignificant, and you'll never face such a threat. (I mean the one with heavy m-guns from the first post)

I have kinda lost interest in CNN, but my thought is that if I have large vehicle with a heavy machinegun pointed at me I am SOL. On the other hand, if I am moving and a couple of M/C's pull alongside and point anything at me, I figure that I have a better than even chance of taking them out with a couple of fast swerves before than can do all that much damage to me or my vehicle. Flat tires to not stop you, they just make you add power to maintain speed, created a nice roostertail of sparks at night, and will eventually set your car on fire. But that can take a while. With todays plastic fenders, your engine, with its computer, sensors, etc etc etc, is pretty vunerable, that could bring you to a stop in a hurry. So take those BG's on the bikes out asap...

This is exactly what I advocate,,,sort of. Act stupid, and uninformed...but, be sly like a fox in the hen house.

However being poor is not neccessarly a good tactic. Even the homeless are being mugged for thrills...

I'd be surprised to see it in the US or Canada but kidnapping is very common in Mexico. Mexico City is also one of the top armored car sales locations in the world.

As harstad indicated kidnappings are not something the general public is really worried about, but carjacking occur frequently and while they are not as well trained they can use the same type of violence. Chances are if you’re in an area that is prone to this kind of violence your choices are going to be extremely limited. I’m not sure how you would explain to the police about the armor let alone the electrified panels and flame throwers. I can’t think of any thing that would be 100% legal in all states. So all I can say is you will have to defend yourself as best as you are able and willing to.

Well. Actually, the absolute solution do exists in the nature - WOMD. 10oz of proper CW, for example, will do the job perfectly and permanently cleaning up everything with brains within 100ft radius around you in less than 30 sec after you stop and put on your special mask. But, you know...

YUP!

Back in the early 90's I had words with a couple of stupid asses on Ninja motorcycles who were hot dogging in traffic, doing wheelies, and weaving in and out of cars at high speeds. They were causing havoc. Finally at a traffic light, they had to stop. Then they proceeded to burn out the rear tires causing huge clouds of smoke while stopped.

I drove onto the medium strip, slammed my car into park, and assailed them with a barage of profanity. I told them exactly what every driver around thought of their horsesh-t to the letter.

I got in my car, and then waited for traffic to clear the enter section, and proceeded to drive on.

Well, those two jerks went and got two more friends on bikes nearby, and ran after me some blocks away. As I got onto the expressway, here comes four screaming motorcycles. They dogged my rear, swept along side and gave me the finger and the up yours hand sign. I returned the favors.
Now we are going about 75 mph. They kept up the high speed dogging my rear, and I sped up. WE're going 85, and they are right on my rear. So I hit the brakes! Hard!
My Buick Riveria locked up and hopped in protest...Two of the bikers shot off to sides and went down in the grass and weeds, in a cloud of dust,gravel and debris..
Their buddies slowed down momentarly,....then pursued me hotter than ever..

I am doing 85 or better...here they come...
So I look at my gas gauge.. it reads nearly full.
I said to myself, " OK, A--holes, lets see what you can do at 90 mph or better, and I got a full tank of gas, so get ready for a long. long , long chase. It was August and the outside temp was in the high 90's. My car was air conditioned.

They chased me for about 50 miles, then the heat,distance, speed
took its' toll on them...just as I knew it would. I saw them give it up as they gave me the finger in defiance.

They knew I'd slam into them if they dared to try to pull along side or in front of me...I was lucky none of those young punks had guns... because at that time, I didn't have any firepower either. It was obvious that they were inexperienced bikers, because you are not going to do much on a bike doing 90 or better. At those speeds, it is all you can do just to keep the thing under control.

I do not know how badly the two guys who wiped out ended up being. I figure they hit the dirt doing about 45 or so, thus, I imagine they ended up with badly damaged bikes and severe wounds of gravel rash...quite frankly I didn't care!

"Well. Actually, the 100% solution do exists in the nature - WOMD. 10oz of proper CW, for example, will do the job perfectly and permanently cleaning up everything with brains within 100ft radius around you in less than 30 sec after you stop and put on your special mask. But, you know..."

Yea but that gets in to the legal thing again, and I did say nothing I can think of would be legal. I can think of all kinds of things and a lot of them gring big grins to my face and few even make me let out an evil type chuckle but I'm kinda warped like that.

A motorcycle at that speed is one of the most stable things on the road...people make bikes unsafe...the people behind the bars and the people in cars...as a motorcycle rider training instructor your story just makes me sad.

The first thing any driver should do is become aware of his/her surroundings. People get inside the insulated wombs we once called cars and between climate control, tinted windows, cellphones and a CD blasting away proceed to more or less point themselves in the general direction and expect the world, God and pigeons to all watch out for them and for them. I was on my local freeway with no traffic. A motorcycle came up the onramp and I merged into the #2 lane and sped up slightly. He roared past me giving the finger. I returned in kind. He followed me off the freeway yelling and into my gated apartment complex motioning inside his vest as if to produce a gun. O.K. people, I was driving a 1986 Volvo 240 wagon with a feature Harley Davidsons lack- reverse gear. That legendary model had a lot of heavy guage sandvik steel Mora didn't buy between me and the tailgate. He was a sadly typical mid life crisis male with the obligatory black MIA-POW T shirt, atrophied finger ring joint with untanned strip and not a fewv issues. They weren't mine, or Old Bald Guy's peers when they arrested him.

A wealthy woman I knew had two young sons, and she was always worried about them getting kidnapped. She drove them everywhere... in a brand-new honking big Cadillac SUV.

ADVERTISE THAT YOU CAN PAY OFF, LADY!

OTOH, I drive my 1985 Chev Cavalier with the faded paint job (sometimes with moss growing on it), the dent in the driver's door, and little sprigs of the remains of the rotted headliner dangling from the top of the rear window.

Practically invisible.

Sue

I think this discussion borders on TEOTWAWKI.

Protecting yourself from someone attacking you in a vehicle is just being aware of your surroundings, and most importantly: Knowing how your maximize the power your vehicle has(we will refer to this as your 1 TON Weapon). Most people routinely accelerate "mildly" and hover very close to the speed limit. Most people will not know how their vehicle accelerates, brakes (and how quickly their pads/shoes will become ineffective) or corners. Do you?

There are at least 2 places in the U.S. you can get defensive driving. They also provide training on "protective driving", as though you are the driver of a vehicle containing a V.I.P. you need to protect from harm. These courses are expensive to discourage just anyone from attending.

Oh and back to your example, this is a situation where you are clearly outnumbered. The only way to survive this is with greater firepower and training. Me, I'm going to assume I'm going to be dead. If I'm going to die, I'm going to try and take a few with me. Not quite sure what I would do if I had a loved one with me.

If you're really worried about it than your best defense is an armoured SUV from Streit or one of the many other companies that produce them. They're very popular oversees for people who might be exposed to those situations. However, they aren't cheap at all. They do work though.

Nighthiker mentions a couple of reasons why someone would want to attack you, but why egg it on? If someone starts yelling at you on the road: monitor and take note, but don't make a bad situation worse! Who knows? Maybe, you did place a motorcycle rider at risk (automobiles and motorcycles have different margins of safety).

Once a friend and I were riding home late at night on my 250cc Honda enduro, which is a little bike that isn't made for two large adult males. We were drunk and laughing our arses off "getting home", and suddenly a carful of Yakuza wannabee japanese kids were coming up on us and honking wildly and passing and cutting us off because my poor little bike was having a hard time getting up the steep hill we were climbing. They were yelling incomprehensible utterances at us to get off the road or something and my friend responded in kind. This angered them immensely. Midway up the hill, in the left turn lane at the stoplight, with their car in front of us on my bike, my friend, drunk as hell and not one to look past a yelling match continued exchanging shouts with the gangsters.
Well, it took about 5 seconds before they jumped out, there were at least three of them, and they were all small guys, but they removed baseball bats and such from the trunk of their car and stood in the ready to kill posture and were silent. My friend still didn't back down with his verbal assault, and I'm thinking that it is only a matter of time (seconds actually) before a gun is produced or one of them calls my friend's bluff and cracks his drunken skull, so I'm thinking, "if you don't quit taunting them we're about to be murdered." I'm trying to shut him up and its not working, so I go to who I sense to be the "leader". He was the largest (not by much though) and was not armed with a handweapon, so I assumed he had "the gun", and I thought I'd better try to "make friends". It became obvious that these guys were actually from Japan, as he didn't speak English, and was overjoyed when I handed him a Coke I had in my jacket pocket. I apologized for my friend's drunken behavior, and the situation quickly dissolved with them getting back in their car and driving away, and us continuing "getting home" all the while arguing loudly over the wind in our faces whether or not we were in any real danger. My friend sure can be an arse sometimes.
As luck would have it, not 100 yards down the road, we got pulled over by a policecar, but that is an entirely different, albeit just as interesting, story.

Hmm, probably the safest means of overland travel in and around Baghdad was the 1974 datsun pickup, with the exhaust pipe barely clearing the road, being held up by a spool of baling wire, with serious dents/rust throughout the vehicle, with smoking exhaust like it needed a quart every hundred miles, with a goat tethered in the bed of the truck, doing about 10 kph below the speed limit down the freeway. No one ever messed with those rigs.

Personally, in a pursuit situation, I prefer the Cannonball run II version. 10 gallons of hi vis grease broadcast behind/to the side of the car by high pressure pumps and nozzles from under the car chassis. After they do a few spins at about 200 rpm, they won't feel much like pursuing I am guessing. Bike tires don't take kindly to zero friction coefficient...

It is also quite discreet, unlike flamethrowers, automatic fire, or a big cloud of Cap spray. Sadly, any innocents following behind might get caught in the mess and end up spinning out as well. Also, it won't do much for you if they get in front.

I can't remember if it was Larry Niven (I think) or Asimov who did a short story about a kidnapper in a car, which ends with "I had the more dangerous weapon" (aka the car)

It's all Mindset - When dealing with a Violent Criminal Actor (VCA) the FASTER you "get off the line" and deal with them, the more likely you are to survive. If you let them control the situation, you ARE hosed.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/06Nov07.html (second article)

In the top situation - the time to act is when the motorcycles first start to swarm - yes, you MIGHT get shot, but you WILL be dead by the time the pickup gets done with you - "Damm the torpedos, Full Speed ahead" "Ramming speed Gridley" - your 2000 lb car is a very effective anti motorcycle tool - hit a bike that is going 60 mph - and not even THAT hard, you'll be putting the riders leg between your car and the bike - kinda painful to ride with your leg crushed in 6-12 places, even if it does'nt knock the guy over

Fast, non predictable direction changes - take out the bikes BEFORE the the pickup gets involved - if the pickup DOES get involved - assume you are dead already - RAM - do ANYTHING to clear the data point.

NEVER submit - the moment you do, the VCA has the upper hand - the rely on the fact that you will hesitate

Almost forgot - NOT hard to make up a few dozen caltrops

Pehaps a more passive, skunklike defense would be the safest.

Who would want to steal a stinky car or kidnap stinky people?

The Army has been working on a variety of stink bombs to deter attacks and break-up masses of people. When people smell a bad smell, one response is fear.

If motorcyclists are harassing you, a whiff of an unpleasant odor would likely heavily discourage any further antics lest they become stinky too!

A deterrent system could easily be built using windshield washer components.

You could further emphasize their peril by painting the car black with a white stripe down the middle as a warning.

Cheers,

Tom A.

Great post Tom!

Kidnapping might not be a big threat but popular cars are often the target of carjackings. Also there are the smash and grabs. Friend of my wife's sister left her purse on the passenger seat of her minivan and someone smashed the window and grabbed it when she was stopped at a light in the not so good area of town.
I like my extended cab truck with the backwards rear doors because its so easy to flip open the back door and toss my bag under the back seat where it can't be seen.
Always keep your doors and seatbelt on and transmission in gear and empty space in front of ypu so if someone does come up to your window you can get out of there.

I always park facing out, so in a rush I can just throw into drive and go. I've noticed a lot of police do this as well, so I guess I'm not alone.

Hello to all,this is my first post.

In reguards to kidnapping's have any of you read "Two Wheels Through Terror, Diary of a South American Motorcycle Odessey" by Glen Heggstad?

I have never met Mister Heggstad, but have met one of his old martial arts sparring partners, and have it on good authority Heggstad can quite easily handel himself. I mean read the book the guy went to South America on a motorcycle by himself. He had no firearms and was facing dozens of armed men with AK-47s, who just happen to fund their terrorist venturse by kidnapping Americans for ransom. (The only reason(2) I mention this book is it involved a kidnapping, and liked the book.)

I think kiddnaping in the United States happens to two types of people, both having the same motivation, MONEY. Group "A" consists of high profile or weathy individuals, and group "B" drug dealers and organized gang members. The majority of these I have read about are ambush style snatches on the way to a car not from a moving vehicle car. At least as far as I can remember.

So, with that out of the way I will go through hypothetical "what if" responses to armed motorcycleists attempting to stop a vehicle. I know DOGOFWAR said he saw this event being trained for. Was this to train the agressors/kiddnaper, or to train persons performing boduguard work?

I ride a motorcycle every day, and know how easy it is for a motorycycle to be taken out by a four wheeled vehicle from first hand experience.

This scenario would fall under a self-defense situation, and if you are afraid of anyone surrounding you while on the road use your mirrors more and check your blind spots even more just so you can swerve if stuff, lets say, comes flying out of a pickup truck bed and into your path. You/me should not be so off inour own world we do not notice an overloaded truck bed that is not tied down as it passes us while driving. If you are that off in your own world pleas stay off the road, I know I pull off the road when my awarenessof my surroundings starts to fade.

SO, THE POINT OF THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH IS 2 PEOPLE ON A MOTORCYCLE (or 4 motorcycles with 2 riders each, who may or may not be concealing a firearm [not concealed means rifle large enough to make out in the mirror before they get close]) THEORETICALLY DONT "APPEAR OUT OF NOWHEAR".

You/I see someone with a weapon, the reaction must be immediate (i.e. fight or flight.) Nutralize the weapon or find cover. I belive law enforcement calls it "VEHICULAR MAnSLAUTER" use your car as a weapon. Or, use evasive driving tactics as you speed away (this part is the "you gotta learn for yourself kind of thing" )know when flight/finding cover is not working and fight back, hopping for a blind corner you can ambush your attackers with your car/truck. If suspicious persons do pursue you ditch them using any loss of sight to make a direction change. In reality focus on breating it helps reduce the HUGE Adreniline response, allows for more intellectual functions of the brain, i.e. rational thought, as opposed to pure animal insticts. Superhuman strength does not help when cornering at high speed, it helps in hand-to-hand combatand and when saving loved ones.

Lastly,
You can look into bullet resistant up grades for windows. I would reccomend windows for cost effectiveness along with bullet resistant panels for engine compartment. Discovery chanel had a special on a while back about the subject of armoring your vihicle for personal safty, I forget exactly what the title was.
In theory most people will not shoot through a car door to hit a driver they try to shoot through the windows to hit the driver/target, unless a pro assassin is after you(this is off topic so I will not go into being stalked by super-smart assasins). Funny that most gangbangers shoot through rolled down windows during driveby's.

These are just some hypothetical what if responses to the original post. Thank you for leting me ramble.

Hey Joseph13,

Welcome to the fire, newguy. Thanks for the book suggestions, it sounds very interesting.

-Blast

Amen! I drive a 97 Ford Explorer and I never wash it. In Texas it pales next to the bigger and more expensive SUV's. Then again, If someone wants it, they can have it. My car is insured and is replaceable.

"...1985 Chev Cavalier with the faded paint job..."

My parents had one of those, the paint was faded by '86. Chevy apparently had a really bad batch of paint...