Finally, someone with some sense. I had been reading this thread since the beginning wondering how many of the people criticizing this article had ANY experience with ultralight hiking, or even regular hiking in general? Seems like they're quick to jump on the bandwagon in the bashing if someone even remotely suggest not carrying a piece of equipment they have. There is a lot of criticism based on assumption and just plain misinformation. Sadly, it also seems like the general tone of this forum has shifted more into the "more gear = more prepared" territory, with a lot opinions from keyboard commandos sitting in front of their computer screens. Before people with start commenting on the stupidity of other people's choices, it might be helpful if they were more knowledgeable on the subject.

I am probably the furthest thing you can get from an ultralight hiker, but that's a personal choice. I carry some gear just because it makes me feel comfortable, not necessarily because I need to. For example, I always carry a fixed blade knife with me at all times, but in the last couple decades, I have never really NEEDED to use it. Yes I've used it, but using it is different than needing it. I could have easily adapted without it. Same with my first aid kit, my space blanket, my firesteel and a lot of other gear. I could get along fine without most any of it, even in an emergency, I will find a way to make do without it. The only reason I really carry equipment is to make me feel better, so I'm not going to criticize someone who chooses to go without it. I know there are people out there who would fare much better than me in a survival situation with much less equipment, if they've got the knowledge and experience to do that, I'd rather learn from them rather than making fun of them.

Hello, Mark, and welcome.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think that "ultralight backpacking" spans an enormous range of people and techniques (so does "survival" for that matter). Some of it borders on nuttiness; most of it is a worthwhile endeavour.

Loads can be pared down quite a lot based on experience, diligent research, and planning.

I've been solo backpacking for a couple of decades, and I think the "solo" part makes me more conservative than some. I'll pare away every possible ounce (an endless obsession with backpackers); but I want a stout safety margin in case something goes wrong, in case of a freak snowfall, an injury, etc. etc.

I actually haven't read the article in question. I pretty much gave up on backpacker mag several years ago. Rarely have I found anything useful in the articles and have been very disappointed with their gear reviews.

Lets see... to answer the questions:

Carry 1L of water? There have been a couple of trips that I didn't carry any water... I knew a lot about the water supply and was following a system of river and lakes for whole hike. I would walk the short distance to the rivers edge and dip my cup in. Seriously though, I almost always start out carrying >=1.5L. How much depends on the water sources and the conditions (largerly temp). I normally have around .5L left in my pack when I get to the water source I plan to fill up at. When I was figuring out my water consumption rates I would sometimes hit a water source dry, but that hasn't happened for several years. If perceive a high risk of running out of water... e.g. I am in dessert conditions, have reason to believe that the water source is unreliable, or there is a large distance to the next water source if the one I planned on using was bad for some reason then I will bring enough water to give me a safety margin. The worst case was a hike that had be starting out with 8L and not dropping below 2L

Knife? I tried an experiment with using just a razer blade.. it was really annoying and not worth the weight savings. Most of the time I take my EDC, a Victorininox Rambler. I sometimes add a Benchmade 530 or Opinel if I am doing fancy cooking that needs a longer blade. In days gone past I would bring a full tang fix blade survival knife. I haven't done this for years. As an ultralighter... I always have my pack so it's unlikely I will need to improvise a shelter etc. On trips that are serious off the beaten trail and it would take a week for people to even know I am missing I would rent a PLB and not worry about living off the land for weeks.

Map & Compass? Compass always. I can imagine places that I would consider not taking a map. For example sections of Yosemite where the trails are like super highways and the landmarks are pretty hard to miss, or places where you are so close to urban (like the sky to sea trail on the california coast) with a road almost always within earshot . Seriously though... a map is light and very useful. I think it's a silly way to save weight. When I don't expect navigation to be tricky I would print out what I was interested in on a 8.5 x 11 sheet of the National Geo paper. If I go cross country I typically carry a full map of the area because I might end up having to deviate from my original plan.

Welcome Verber.

I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree. I base my opinion what I've seen over the past 15 years as a short hiker and hunter in the Greens and Whites, and as someone who grew up here. Cold-wet is not a back up plan- it what you put on a tombstone. Too many times I've heard the back up plan is to "power through it"- yes, a great plan. Particularly with leg injuries caused by light ice on rocks or among leaves. I don't care how "hot" you "run"- under prepared is under prepared. You're gear is a life support machine, and I see too often too little safety margin. I was walking a path not three hundred yards from my parent's house this time of year once, slipped, tried to catch myself, and dislocated my knee- and was so hypothermic that I couldn't talk straight after dragging myself home. This was in my backyard, within what would be shouting distance for most people- halfway up Washington is a really bad place to have that happen, you can have a thirty degree and 20mph difference between bottom and top. In those conditions, right now you get freeze fog without too much difficulty, and there is no one those trails during the week right now; this time of a year, most ultralighters who's packs I've seen are probably dead men if it doesn't go according to plan.

And it isn't just a matter of brains. There was a former Air Force survival instructor who died that way not too far from where I'm sitting. Slipped crossing a brook, went in the water during deer season. His fire lighter was one I've seen on a lot of ultralighter's packing lists- paper matches. He was found the next spring. He had the skills, he thought he was good enough to compensate for junk equipment.

Maybe you are the exception, but around here, I've seen too many people who are geared up as ultralighters who seem to have left their brains at home. A lot of it is good gear, I use quite a bit of it, but when one weighs everything and brags about how light they are loaded, I have to really question the planning. I'll be the first one to admit I'm not a UL'er, but I'm usually alone and weight is a factor. To me, "ultralight" is as much a mentality as it is a matter of gear, and it is a mentality akin to the guys who strip everything out of a car to get that extra five miles of top speed out of it and put slicks on as road tires. Maybe I haven't been fortunate enough to work with a true ultralighter, in which case I'll apologize. But it will be a personal apology to an exception, not a general one.

I think you are on to something. I keep thinking about Aron Ralston. That guy (appropriately) got a lot of grief on this website. He broke about every survival rule there was--but at least he had a knife of some sort on him when he needed it.

I wonder if he would have been able to physically do what he did with just a razor blade?

Well, then I stand corrected. Still, I think even 30 mile days are fairly rare (in backpacking, not talking about Ultras here), particularly as an average. Yes, I have heard of "Flyin' Brian," the man who did the PCT, AT, and CDT all in one season. (Amazing!) I think my point in saying, "Well, for the record no one that I've ever heard of does 50 - 60 miles in a day," was more to bring hiking mileages into a more realistic range. A lot of non hikers don't know that a 10 mile hike is a pretty good hike with 40 - 50 lbs on one's back. If you're routinely doing 15 - 20 mile days, my hat's off to you. Anything over 15 in a day with an overnight pack is an accomplishment in my book. The ultralight thing seems to be paying off for you.



Definitely. The people who are typically the biggest problem are the ones who don't know what they're doing at all. This summer, I ran into a ~50 y.o. woman taking her first backpack. She was at about 11,000 ft. and had just come down from 12,500. That's a heck of a beginner's hike! She was an REI employee, had bought a bunch of stuff, put it in a big pack, and off she went. She was in really bad shape, stumbling and on the point of collapse. My friend and I split up her load and walked her down to her campsite. We thought her pack was really heavy and both of us are 6' tall, experienced hikers.



I think I'd agree with you there. Each person has to make his/her own assessment. I feel uncomfortable with a blanket statement like, "anyone who goes out without a fixed blade knife is an idiot." Everyone needs to come to terms with their own risk assesment and response.



Yeah, it's not the experienced guys like you that I worry about. You guys know what's what, how to improvise, etc. My main criticism of the Backpacker Magazine article is that there was no discussion of the pros and cons, what the trade offs are in carrying lighter gear, not carrying maps or water, etc. The article was presented as though risk wasn't an issue. My fear is that people new to backpacking will read articles like this, head out without really knowing what they need, and, like the woman I mentioned above, get themselves into real trouble. I think BP Magazine could do a better job.



Well, with a tarp only, how does one prevent one's down quilt from becoming wet in a serious rain storm. Wet down = misery; I say that from hard experience. I'm asking this seriously; that question was not intended as criticism. I was in a T-Storm like you wouldn't believe at 11,000+ feet this summer. Hail pelting so hard I drew my arms in around my chest instead of using trekking poles because it just hurt too much to have my arms horizontal. When I got back to camp (we had been on a peak bagging side trip), the rain had been so intense that mud was splashed 3/4 of the way up the rain fly. Inside? Our bags were bone try (THANK, GOD!). In an open ended tarp, would not a quilt become sodden?




I heartily agree. All the gear in the world won't help you if you lose your head or panic. Still, there's a balance to be had. Drop a man in the middle of a snowy forest in only his street clothes, and he's going to be in trouble (well, maybe if he's a smoker he'd have a lighter and could start a fire). Absolutely, the clever, those with ingenuity, those who stay cool are the ones who survive, but I'm going to suggest that a certain basic minimum of gear is equally important.



Yes, and that's just the kind of experimentation that makes me not worry about guys like you. I'm much more worried about the yahoos who go down to K mart, get some cheap crap, and head out into the woods in blue jeans and a cotton T shirt. Them and perhaps a yuppie who wants to get into backpacking, goes and buys the latest gear and goes out with no real idea of what he or she is doing. Giving advice in a magazine that one can go out into the woods without a map with out a word of caution makes me very uncomfortable. A simple admonition to the effect of, "don't try this until after you've been out a few times and are comfortable in the back country," would be a lot more responsible to my view.



Yeah, I've spent a few cold nights out there when trying something new. Sometimes it really is "no pain, no gain."




20 miles in a day with out feeling fatigued is quite an acheivement.

Then we are in absolute agreement. I hope you stick around and contribute more!

Mark, it sounds like you've got your head on straight. Everything I hear you saying sounds well reasoned, and you sound like you know the trade offs and how to strike a reasonable balance. I think you'll be in far better shape than someone who is rigid and doctrinaire.

For example, sometimes people act like water purification is some sacred tenent from on high. The reason that I posted articles about water purification was simply to suggest that we shouldn't take such a hard line on the subject. I don't intend to stop filtering, but let's not be to heavy handed on the subject. That, and based on the article, people should put a bar of soap or alcohol based hand cleaner in their PSK's and BOB's!

I am pretty normal... though maybe more loquacious that most of the people I know who ultralight. If you want to see what a community of thoughtful ultralight people look like, check out the free forums at
forums at backpackinglight.com

Warning... lots of geeks there who do things like measure the Clo values of clothing, run experiments to see how long it takes for shoes to dry after they have walked through a river, etc. But it's clean fun... well, mostly clean anyway.



I would agree that when we are talking sub 0F temp that the margins need to be wider. When I suggested that the back up plan was being wet and cold I try to make clear (and apparently failed) that many of the ultralight folks I know target their gear to be comfortable in the expected conditions (e.g. things go well), and be safe, but maybe uncomfortable in the worst case.



A couple of thoughts. First, given the number of people who die in the whites (small), and the odds that murray with strike (high), I wonder if they are dead men or just very unhappy men Second, I am sure there are ultralight folks who don't take the white's seriously enough. Of course, I think that cuts across all styles of outdoors folks. If I was going to predict the percent of people hitting the whites who had problems with exposure, I would bet that in decreasing likelihood it would be day hikers, hunters, classic backpackers, ultralighters. Why? Because the day hiker and hunter don't normally plan to handle the night and expect to be able to walk away from any problem they find. If they can't walk away, many are in trouble. Why would I expect the ultralighter to be less at risk than a classic backpacker? Because an experienced ultralight backpacker is used to explicitly managing the risk / benefit trade-off and won't assume "it's not a big deal... I will be ok".

As to to paper matches being the standard on ultralight backpacking lists... I expect it depends on the ultralighter, and also the season they are going in. There are conditions that are moderate enough that it could be argued that that paper matches are sufficient. There are conditions where paper matches are clearly completely inadequate. A thoughtful ultralight person would select what they bring based on what they are facing. I will use myself as an example. I am a pretty ultralight guy. In the middle of the summer I always have at least three types of fire lighters (box of small wood matches which is inside my cook kit and what normally gets used, spark-lite, and some customized windproof matches which live in a waterproof container with small amount of tinder -- vasaline soaked cotton balls and the tinker sold with the spark-lite for emergencies). I also have the alchohol fuel from my stove and the gel alchohol I use to clean my hands to help with starting a fire. More importantly, I know how to start a fire with these different tools in the face of harsh conditions. In the winter I will typically also have the auto-lighter on my winter stove, a windproof butane lighter, and a lmf firesteel, and of course bring more hardcore tinder. Going for ultralight doesn't mean a person is stupid or careless.

The other thing to consider is that the ultralighter pretty much always has their pack with them. In the case of ending up in a lake, a much faster recovery path would be to get out of the water, take off wet clothing, pull out sleeping bag from the drybag. Get warm enough so your hands function again, and then think about the fire. The nice thing about going ultralight is that the pack is typically not much of an exuberance. When hiking, my pack rarely comes off my back until I am setting up camp. Honestly I have been known to forget it was there. There have been several trips with classic style backpackers that we will get to a place they want a break, they will all dump there packs and I will scout around a bit. When I come back they will ask why I didn't dump my pack and I say "I didn't occur to me. I am fine". Because of this I don't carry a seperate "10 essentials" because they are fully intergrated into my ultralight approach. When it's time to summit one of the 14Kers... I don't drop my pack. I take it will me. My full pack is approx the same weight as many peak-bagger summit packs.

He would have slit his wrist on the other arm.