Hi all,

I hesitated in posting the following story but after reading Xavier recent post and all the nice replies, I figured I would share it on the forum.

My career requires that I spend most work days in an outdoor rural to remote setting, being knowledgeable and equipped to survive has gotten me out of many difficult situations or at least given me the confidence to do my job effectively. But sometimes complacency sets in and you do something that breaks even your own rules of common sense, here is a personal example from a week ago.

I was working alone in a semi-remote area (rough gravel road into a logging clearcut) that I accessed by ATV, it was an overcast day about 15*c with occasional showers. On the ATV I had my large patrol pack that has all the gear I needed to spend a night out in reasonable comfort (like minimalist camping). It was late afternoon and I was trying to determine how to get to a small lake but the ATV trail ended and turned into a faint hiking trail. My new GPS showed that the lake was not far so I left the ATV (with my pack, coat, raingear, axe, shelter, PLB, Sat phone, water, food, etc on it) and headed down the trail with just what I had on me.

I hiked for about a 1.5 kilometres but the trail only linked up to a swampy creek that flowed into the lake which was still a further kilometre to the south. I decided that it was getting late in the day for bushwacking and started back out the little trail toward my ATV. The trail was marked with small pieces of blue flagging tape and as dusk came on I had difficulty seeing them in the dense bush. In the area of a flowing stream I lost the trail and started circling trying to find it, the bush was very thick and I fell 3 times on the slippery rocks in the creekbed. After about 30 minutes of searching it was sunset and I had to make a decision, to Stay or Go?

I remembered the most basic survival training (the same one I have taught kids), S.T.O.P. so I sat down on a log and thought for a moment. I sure wished I had some of the items that were strapped to my ATV but I did have with me my work tools and my EDC survival items; folding knife, multi-tool, compass, fire-starter, whistle, 2 way radio, cell phone, flashlight and a mini-survival kit based on Doug Ritter's homemade one. I had filed a detailed work plan for the day so co-workers knew where I would be and I may have been able to call out with the radio or cell phone.

My GPS showed that there was a logging road 800m to my west and the creek that I had found earlier was 400m to my east, I had neglected to log my ATV in as a waypoint (duh) but knew it was approximately 1000m north of me. I decided to walk the small stream east to the swampy creek as I remembered that the trail came very close to the edge of it. I walked the north side of the stream using my flashlight in the hope that I might by-chance pick-up the lost trail. Sure enough after about 200m I found a small piece of flagging tape that linked to the trail I had hiked in on and within 20 minutes I was back at the ATV (whew).

This is a small example (I was only turn-around for about 45 minutes) of where a brief lapse in judgement lead to an unplanned, although not very serious event (still enough to give me that knot in your stomach feeling). One of the times that I fell on the rocks while searching for the trail I hit a nylon carrier on my belt hard enough to smash it, an impact a little higher or lower and the situation could have been much more serious.

I learned from this experience (and a similar occurence last summer) that I need to make my main pack more modular so I can remove a fannypack sized kit from it to take with me on these impromptu excursions (I was seriously lacking a shelter component). I also need to learn more patiences, I tried to rush this job at the end of the day so I would not have to travel back to the area a second time, my haste almost cost me a wet night in the bush, my family/co-workers unneeded worry and perhaps worse.

Please feel free to reply to this post, your input is always appreciated.

Mike

You did the right thing with STOP. One year, I was hunting, maybe 600 yds from the house we stay at - come nightfall, I got turned around for about 10 minutes - and I've hunted that spot for oh, 25-30 years

Good job, SwampDonkey.

"...I left the ATV (with my pack, coat, raingear, axe, shelter, PLB, Sat phone, water, food, etc on it)..."

That pretty much says it all. Glad you had the GPS, and the presence of mind to stop and think. And next time I'll bet that you mark the location of the ATV in the GPS...

I agree that you should layer your gear. Rather than having a single large backpack, take a duffel bag as your main gear bag (which stays with the ATV) and a smaller backpack such as a Camelback Rim Runner or Alpine Explorer as a walking kit. The walking kit should be light enough that you have no rational excuse to leave it behind; its primary job is to get you back to the ATV, even if that might be the next morning. Sounds like you had a good experience.

I second RAS's post -- make a pack so small you always carry it. (camelbak HAWG or MULE?)

teacher

PS You might also get in the habit of leaving a note ON the ATV as to where you are going --e.g Its noon on the 24th, I'm going up to the top of the ridge, back at 1400.

I've done the same thing while scouting for trailheads. Sometimes they're overgrown with bush at the side of a road, and there are lots of game trails and false leads. I don't want to scramble through this scrub with full pack for nothing. So the pack stays in the car because I'll be back in ten minutes. In theory. Problem is, trails lead me forward, not back. One trail leads to another, and next thing I know I'm 20-30 minutes in with basically no gear. Not great.

Sounds like you've thought the matter through. An oversize fanny pack is the way to go. I'm currently testing a big one from MEC (6 litres of storage with external water bottle carriers). I got used to always having a handy pack like this while travelling -- it contained my essentials and my travel documents. I call it the "football" (IIRC that's the Secret Service nickname for the briefcase with the nuke launch codes).

BTW: I've only been badly turned around once, while bushwhacking. I would have bet any amount of money that my compass was wrong. I had to sit down, have a bit of water and a snack, and talk myself through it. These days, before a trip, I check my compass against a known north-south road. That way I won't question the compass in the bush.

Yes, this is a typical we have all been there story. It reinforces my determination to always have my gear with me, no matter how small the trip into the bush may be.

I was a land surveyor in the Northwoods of Maine for many years. The blue flagging is easily lost in the shadows. Our crews found what we took to calling "passionate pink" ribbon to be the most easily visible and so we nearly always used that over any other color.

I went with the Rim Runner. The Mule would carry water and some small essentials, but not much else. RR carries the small essentials plus more water (I added a quart nalgene bottle), a stainless steel cup (nalgene is nested in the cup), MSR Pocket Rocket and fuel cannister, sil-nylon tarp, Thermo-Lite Bivvy, para cord. It's light and carries very easily.

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the nice words, information and "been there - done that" replies.

I added my mini-survival kit to my work belt about 2 years ago for just the situation I found myself in last week (e.g. walk away from my vehicle for a moment to check something out and get lost or injured in the process). As I sat on that log in the bush last week contemplating spending the night my mini-kit looked very, very small.

I agree with those who posted that I need a mid-sized day hiking kit, it will include items not found in my mini-kit or EDC like shelter, first aid, water and food plus expand on the fire, light, signaling, navigation and mulit-purpose items/tools. I need to keep this kit light (5 to 10 pounds) so I am not tempted to leave it behind and it needs to be carried in a high backpack so it does not interfer with my work belt or backrest on the ATV or snowmobile.

This kit would be extremely important if I sink my snowmobile through the ice and only make it to shore with the equipment on me, I have done that before and it was a very cold experience. Lucky both times I was working with a partner and we doubled out on his machine back to the truck.

I liked the "note on the ATV" idea and may even call the new day kit the "Football" just to remind me of its importance.

I cannot see me stopping the way I like to explore in the bush (I have been turned around many times) so I will just have to modify my equipment carry and reevaluate my tactics for finding my way back out (e.g. study GPS manual).

I appreciate all your input.

Mike

P.S. Concerning water bladder type packs, what happens to them in very cold weather; do the keep working because of body heat, freeze-up, or freeze and expand to the point of bursting? I have no experience with this tye of water system.

It would be unwise to rely solely on a water bladder in wilderness and especially if you are alone.

I always carry a army water bottle with the issue mug so I can brew up a hot chocolate while I S.T.O.P.

I don't like bladders in the winter as it is difficult to keep the hose clear.

I do like a wide mouthed bottle as it is easier to get water in/out if there is a bit of ice in the bottle. You can also keep it stored upside down so that the ice formes on the bottom.

I am going to look at this bottle from MEC to see if it could also be used to heat the water.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442621456&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696609&bmUID=1193702880092

Being in SOCAL lotsa water was on my mind when I chose this bag. I've never seen a bladder freeze so "don't know" -- good question for the folks at Camelbak; I suspect it would simply expand to accommodate the ice.

I think that if I was in that kind of weather I'd leave the bladder out and use that space for something else -- maybe a dry set of long underwear (smartwool). My Camelbak Rim Runner weighs 11 1/2 lbs without the water.

In the book, "Deep Survival" it discusses the same phenomena. That split second decision that contradicts common sense. Everyone experiences it. It's what you do when you recognize your situation that determines survivability.

Live and learn . . .

I have heard from various places that freezing your Camelbak "bladder" in the freezer is not recommended because it will damage/weaken the plastic material.

concerning the water bladders -- I think they get worn inside your coat and the hose has a bit of insulation around it. Check with the snowboarders.

teacher

I've done back country skiing in Canada. I've seen 'em freeze and become totally useless. The mouth piece and tube in particular tend to freeze, but they can also freeze up inside the main bladder.

My fiancee recently bought a camelback with the hose that goes inside the shoulder strap for extra insulation. This config works well in either relatively mild freezes or if you have a warming hut to retreat to as needed. If you get a seriously hard freeze and plan to be out for the day, I'd think twice. For winter snow camping, I've carried these Water Bottle Parkas with good success although I haven't yet taken them below zero.

Hmm. Interesting idea -- put your whole canteen on the fire. You've got a ready made lid that way, although you'd have to be careful to loosen the top a bit if you intend to boil it lest the steam build up pressure and when you open the top ... well, hope you brought your burn first aid kit with you.

The one thing I don't like about the MEC product is the kind of rounded bottom. Sigg makes stainless steel bottles with a bit more of a squared off bottom, Sigg Water Bottle. The one shown in this link is .6L but they make them in .75L and 1L sizes as well. I hadn't seen this one before, but Sigg also makes a stainless steel Canteen with cup. Might be nice to be able to boil a second round of water while you drink soup or hot chocolate from the cup. The .6L size, while of limited capacity, is pretty compact and readily packable in your ATV kit, car trunk kit, or backpack -- even a good sized fanny pack. The equipment you carry is the equipment you'll use.

Thanks You everyone for the information on the bladder type water carrier packs, I can see me getting one for spring/summer/fall use but I usually run a snowmobile in the winter and I do not think the tube system would work well under the helmet or in the cold.

I can carry a lot of stuff on the work snowmobile (Ski-doo widetrack Expedition 600cc) so I usually bring a steel thermos of hot water from home; I make instant soup with the first cup of water and turn the rest into tea.

I think I am going to contain my new mid-sized hiking kit in a metal container (army mug or heavy tin can) which will then be placed in a small pack that has room for 500ml waterbottles to be added to it. The goal is to keep this kit small and light (so I will not be tempted to leave it behind) but still cover all the survival component groups.

Mike

During the winter I keep a bota bag under my jacket you could do the same thing with your camelback

Wow, I hope you pack a spare change of underwear in your survival kit, because that's the first thing I would need after punching my snowmobile through the ice.

Sigg explicitly warns against boiling water in their stainless water bottles, but I'm not sure if this is because the direct heat would damage the finish/graphics on the bottle, or if it would compromise the integrity of the bottle itself. It might be worth experimenting with/clarifying with Sigg before you get out into the woods.

Hi Katie,



It is very freaky when it happens but both times I got out of the water very quickly. My employer provides mandatory Ice Safety training/equipment; full floater suits and long ice picks really help in getting out of the water.

Another time the rear of the snowmobile and I went through a beaver pond but the front of the machine stayed up on the thin, mushy ice. Every time we tried to pull on the front of the machine our boots would break through so we cut conifer limbs and built a platform around the 1/2 submerged snowmoblie. It was a very light Ski-doo Elan model and my magnesium snowshoes were tied to the rear handgrip. By squatting down at the rear of the hole and sticking my arms into the water up to my shoulders I was able to get a hold of my snowshoes and lift the rear up to the point where my partner at the front and I could roll the snowmobile sideways to shore. We broke the windshield and cracked the cowling but the snowmobile still ran and I drove it out to the truck. I was almost completely wet and my partner was wet to the waist so we called it a day and headed to town.

This was long before the days of being prepared, I now keep a full change of clothes (including underwear) in the work truck or my personal outdoor vehicle. Usually they end up being used for an unplanned stay at a motel in another town, but I and others have used them after a soaking in the bush.

Later,

Mike

SwampDonkey, the more I hear of your hands-on exploits, the more I think you should be instructing US -- instead of us pretending to advise you. :-)

Thanks for the vote of confidence dougwalkabout.

The reality is that I am just a lucky klutz that has had the opportunity to work in the bush for 25 years without injuring myself to badly.

What I used to learn by trial and error (the slow, expensive way) I now often learn from ETS and the members on this forum. I am much more prepared and aware now than I was just 3 years ago before I had a home computer and access to this wealth of information/expertise. For example, just today I ordered a Leatherman TTI, Heetsheet Bivvy, and RescueMe window punch/seatbelt cutter all based on recent recommendations from ETS and members of this forum.

I have a lot of wilderness experiences but have had very little exposure to the kind of events that most members on this site prepare for like; hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, tornados and civil unrest. The worst I can see happening in my area would be a limited chemical spill on the highway/railway, a long term power outage or a big winter storm.

While I research and tinker refining my wilderness kits, my stay-home kit and BOB are very lacking and I need to spend time and resources improving them. I have had a difficult time convincing the rest of my family of 5 that emergency preparedness is important.

I really appreciate this forum and learn from you folks daily; because everyones perspective and scope of knowledge is different we all benefit from this information resource.

Nice talking with you,

Mike

During "Hell Week" a SEAL instructor stood on a berm and looked out toward the sea....What am I looking for? he asked the students. When no one answered he replied....I'm looking for a war.

It is what they train for.......while no one (including them) LIKES war....like them.....we all want to have ourselves put to the test and come out victorious. (And wiser).....Sounds as if you got both....nice work. Like the 'seasoned' instructors at BUDS...you too have carried on the tradition....now you have helped to teach others what you learned.....thank you.

Good story, Mike!
I'm wondering what kind of GPS unit you're using? I had a lot of the "got off the trail" situations in my limited hiking experience, but even my simplistic yellow Garmin eTrex had the "track back" feature, which usually allows to resolve such a problem in no time (just half a dozen clicks of buttons). You're right, it doesn't matter how user-friendly (or fool proof) a modern mapping GPS features are, but the RTFM ("read that freaking manual" ) rule must be obeyed. Know your hardware!

Hmm. It may have to do with the coating they put on the inside of the bottle to prevent leaching. OK, the regular Sigg bottle is out as something to heat in although the .6L flask with steel cup is still an option.

If money is not a too big problem, try a KIFARU Marauder (about 40 liters)with a detachable E&E pocket (about 16 liters):
Marauder pack
E&E back pouch


(usual disclaimer : I'm not affiliated with KIFARU and have no economical interest in that company. On the opposite : I'm starting to spend too much money on their products... help !!! )

Hi Frenchy,

The E&E pack is about the size I am thinking of, but proabally a cheaper version than the top-of-the-line Kifaru one.

I saw one while surfing the net that had a single angled shoulder strap and roadhigh on the back (I think it was so it would not interfer the placement of a long-gun butt on the shoulder), unfortunately I did not bookmark the site and cannot find it again!

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Alex,

I was using a new Garmin GPSmap 76S but I have to admit that it is so new to me that I have not read the manual yet (my bad).
I had turned the unit on at the ATV to find out how far it was to the lake but then turned it off as I walked in, I only turned it on again either at the end of the trail or after I lost the trail at dusk.

I know I should read the manual but I am rushing to pack my stuff for deer hunting (leaving tomorrow, maybe I can read it in the treestand), is it possible to search back to locations with this GPS that were not marked as waypoints or tracks, after the unit is turned off?

Thanks,

Mike

I have thought about getting this water bottle, it is Stainless and can be heated in the fire. I like the Sigg canteen, but they are Aluminum with a coating and cannot be used for melting snow (direct heat) It is the only one I have seen that also has a Stainless Steel top.
http://www.wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=100&CFID=47440&CFTOKEN=86575741

Mike, that GPS unit is definitely capable to do the "back on track" job. But, sure thing, it must be On all the time. The two AA batteries powers it for ~16 hours in Power Saving mode. I think that's plenty for even an entire day track log. If you got lost, just use the "Highway" feature with that track. Along with its integrated digital compass, it will guide you back to any spot on the recorded track. No need to set-up any special way-points on the way, just keep it On.

I personally like the sigg classic oval with the cup: http://www.sigg.ch/en/html/classic_oval.htm

Very good product, and highly recommend it.

Its my edc and always with me. Its not too big to get in the way (for urban edc - in office bags/backpacks/messenger bags), and when I go hiking, it goes directly in my PSK while the 32 ouncers (naglene) are my water carry/drinkers.

My two cents.
Kris

Hi John,

Nice Stainless Steel bottle, I bookmarked the site.

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Alex,

I find this GPS unit eats batteries but I have not found the Power Saver mode yet (I know, read the manual)!

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Frenchy,

Thanks for the detailed info on Kifaru packs, this winter when things slow down I have to decide what equipment I am going to need in this hiking kit then decide on the size of pack to contain it.

This is a difficult problem for me as I am a habitual overpacked/planner.

Mike

I couldn't get that link to work, but I think this one works Sigg Stainless Steel Flask with Cup

From what I understand, this flask is steel not aluminum. Do you know the total weight of the flask + cup?

There you go, I fixed the url (I had a period at the end of the url). Thanks for the post.

I don't have a scale here at work, nor anything at home that can measure the weight of it, but i'll find one for ya. I'm pretty sure the cup is steel, but I will look into it. Its not a 'heavy' thickness (which is questioning that it is steel), but sturdy for the job.

I'll find out that info for ya... (just sent an email to Sigg, will post back with info regarding cup material)

Hi Hikin_Jim

The Sigg bottle flask and Cup weighs 357 grams. Cup is 170gms. Flask is 187gms
The matching neoprene cosy cover weighs 65 grams.

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor beat me to it!!!

I've been thinking about getting a Vargo Ti-Lite Titanium Mug. It fits over the end of a standard 1L Nalgene bottle which saves space. It weighs 5.2 oz yet holds .75L. By contrast, the USGI Canteen Cup weighs 8.96 oz and holds .7L. Yes, that's "only 4 oz," but think of it as a quarter pound -- save a few of those and you've got a pound, it really does add up ... just ask my back.

I've seen them for about $30.00 which is a little pricey, but not that bad.

One of the advantages of the Nalgene bottles is their wide mouth which facilitates the ingress of snow. In spring conditions, one can scoop snow into a half full of water Nalgene, hang it on the back of your pack, and let the sun work it's magic. I got about a quart of water that way in one afternoon on a hike I did last April. A quart is enough to make a big difference -- just ask anyone who's brought three quarts on a hike and needed four. In this case it turned out to be a lifesaver; I would have gone dry because the hike took longer than planned due to the heavier than expected snow.

When it's colder or overcast, I'd use the mug for melting snow, but it's still to my advantage to have a wide mouthed bottle that is easy to pour into or use as a snow holder as I add more snow to the mug during the melting process (the amount of snow you can stuff into a pot is only about a third of the capacity of the pot once is turns to water.

357gm? That's about 12.6 oz. A Nalgene bottle with a titanium canteen cup weighs about 10.5 oz, which only about 2 oz less (although a standard Nalgene holds 1.0L where as the flask only holds 0.6L. Still the stainless would be really strong and the size is nice for EDC. Plus, it has a really high cool factor.

The cost for the Sigg flask & cup is about $30.00. The cost of a Nalgene on sale is $5.95 + the titanium canteen cup is $30.00 or about $35.95. The Sigg looks good.

Has anyone had any rust problems with stainless steel drinking vessels?. For EDC use, I'd be a little worried about rust even with stainless steel. I have a stainless double wall thermos (no rust problems), but I rarely use it for more than a week at a time.

Hi Hikin_Jim

The Vargo Ti-lite Titanium Mug is an excellent bit of kit. Highly recommended. Rather than put in a Naglene bottle, a 110 butane gas canister, Optimux Cruz folding stove and brew kit fits just perfectly inside. Total weight excluding the brew kit is 435gms and allows about 3 days cooking capability for 1 person using British Army Rat packs (foil sachets heated in the Mug with the boiling water used for beverages) or lightweight dehydrated Reiter meal sachets. 2 Days during the winter. A folding Ti spork fits nicely inside the Vargo Mug as well.

I actually prefer the Standard Aluminium Sigg Bottle 144 grams with the Neoprene cover 82 grams - Total 226 grams. It is much lighter than the steel Sigg bottle and can be used as a hot water bottle on cold nights with the neoprene cosy. It also keeps the bottle from being affected from small dents during small knocks. The Sigg bottle can be/is used in conjuction with a Smartube drinking tube with appropriate adapter at 83 grams. A backup 2 Litre Platypus folding water bladder is also carried. A Smartube adapter can also be used with the Platypus bladder if required.

Optimus Crux stove? lol. It just so happens that I have an Optimus Crux stove which I carry on overnight trips. Good piece of kit. I was kind of thinking that for day hikes, where I don't normally take my stove, that a metal mug/canteen cup would be great for emergencies or even just a cup of tea. The stove in the mug idea is great (I do that with my mirro pot now), but for day hikes, sliding the Nalgene so that essentially no room in the pack is consumed seems like the way to go.



What the Sam Hill is a brew kit? Portable beer? Dude, that would be cool! The British Army and Reiter packets sound like good E-rats. I assume that they keep for extended periods. How's the taste?



What's the advantage of the Sigg aluminum vs. the Nalgene? The Nalgenes are also good for a hot water bottle. Never had a leakage problem.



I carry a 3L Nalgene foldable "cantene" (sic) as a backup. My standard water load (not necessarily all full, depending on the hike) for day hikes is:
1 Camelback, 2L
1 Nalgene lexan bottle, 1L
1 Nalgene foldable "cantene," 3L (why can't they call it a collapsible water carrier or bladder? Or at least "canteen," the normal spelling)

That gives me up to a 6L capacity which is enough for even extended day hikes in hot weather. If I take a shorter hike, I can leave the "cantene" behind.

Has anyone tried the Esbit stove? I was thinking that a little stove would be good to carry in cold weather on day hikes. Not sure I want to carry even my little Optimus Crux. The Esbit sounds like about what I want. Anyone used one? Are the fuel cubes ruined if the packaging is punctured?

Hi Hikin_Jim



Brew Kit is just a term for some tea bags or coffee, beverage whitener and sugar sachets. The instant tea in the British Army rat packs are terrible (replaced with some Scottish Blend or Nambarie tea bags) but the rest is otherwise pretty good although the can of Meat Pate is'nt to everyones taste. Each ration pack contains about 4000 calories, so one pack would last me about 2 days.

From the mreinfo web site;



Each 24 hour 1-man ORP came in a small brown corrugated cardboard box, with the full menu listings printed on the bottom (GP A-G, H, K, S, V, P, sundries and variants). Each box contains the following:
1 x Breakfast meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection)
1 x Main meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection)
1 x Dessert meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection)

1 x Soup, powdered form, in sachet (varying flavours; Beef & Tomato, vegetable, Cream of mushroom, etc, manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")

1 x Meat Pate, such Turkey and Herbs, Chicken and Herbs, etc (in small, ring pull opening, can)
1 x Oatmeal block (A slight exaggeration! It is really just a small Oatmeal biscuit, in metallic green foil packet)
1 packet x Biscuit Browns (approximately 6 in metallic green packet)
1 packet x Fruit Biscuits (approximately 6 in metallic pink or green packet)
1 x Milk chocolate bar (usually a bar manufactured by "A. Gandola & C. S.p.A. of Italy", but sometimes a brand called "Duncans of (Bellishill) Scotland")
1 x Milk chocolate with raisins and cereal bar (usually a brand called "Duncans of (Bellishill) Scotland")
1 packet of Boiled sweets (various fruit flavours, manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")
1 packet of Wrigley?s chewing gum (usually Wrigley?s Extra, but sometimes a smaller packet of Wrigley?s chewing gum in tablet-like form)

1 x Drinking chocolate mix sachet (manufactured by "Eurogran of Kalundborg")
2 x Coffee sachets (manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")
2 x Beverage whitener sachets, for coffee (manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")
4 x Instant white tea sachets (manufactured by "Premier Brands") - Yuck
8 x Sugar sachets (Manufactured by "Single Service")
1 x Orange or Lemon drink powder sachet (manufactured by "Eurogran of Kalundborg")
1 x Vegetable stock drink sachet (manufactured by "Single Service")

1 packet x Kleenex Tissues (manufactured by "Kleenex")
6 x Water purifying tablets
10 x Water/windproof matches with striker (matches and striker sealed in separate polythene compartments, to prevent accidental striking during packing, handling, and transportation)

I also like to supplement the ration pack with a small can of red or white white, just like the French Ration packs used to have. Its not been unknown to carry a couple of Malt Whiskey minitures as well.



I just like the way the Sigg Bottle is easier to handle and to drink from. I find the Sigg Bottle just more manageable. They are also slightly easier to pack in an open side pocket on the back pack as well.

3 Litres is plenty for me. Here in Scotland, fresh water is always nearby and plentiful. Most of it travels horizontally through the air . Thankfully hot weather is a rare event rarely getting above 25 degrees Celsius. During the one or two days when the temperature becomes unbearably warm the cooler temperatures in the mountains is a welcome relief.



I would stick with the gas stove. Its less messy, easier to light, has a greater controllable heat output and is generally a more reliable way to bring water to the boil. I wouldn't really attempt to bring to the boil more than a cup full (300ml) of water at any one time using Esbit tabs. The Esbit stove although may be a lighter alternative on warm windless days for making single cups of tea or coffee. The Esbit tablets have an unlimited lifetime even if exposed to the air. Esbit tablets are really useful in a PSK as well.

I was hoping that you had mastered the art of beer making in the field. I kind of suspected that wasn't it.



Wow. Now that's a nice ration packet. Far nicer than American MRE's. How much does one of these ration packets weigh?



Now there's a man who is prepared.



Good point. The Sigg is taller and thinner and would be easier to put it in a side pocket. I do like the wide mouth of the Nalgene, but the Sigg seems like a quality item too. The other nice thing about Nalgenes is that many water filters will screw directly on to the bottle, which is quite convenient.



Quite a difference from S. Calif. Water is frequently hard to find; known springs and streams are often unreliable. Temperatures over 40C are common in the summer. We think of 30C as a nice cool day and rejoice after a week of 40C weather.



That's great news about the Esbit tabs. I was afraid that they'd be like Wetfire, which becomes useless once it's packaging is compromised. I've been carrying them for a while in my PSK. I figure they might be just the thing to start a fire on a wet, cold day where all the wood is quite sodden. Maybe I'll have to experiment with them just a bit to see how they behave in wind (with out starting a forest fire in the process!).

Hi Hikin_Jim

The British Ration Pack is pretty heavy at around 1600 grams. Its not lightweight but there is enough calories for me for about 2 days. I would say that the packaging wastage is probably around 100-120 grams. At 4000 calories for 1500 grams this works out at 266 Kcal/100gms. Not to bad considering no addition water needs to be added to the main meals, but this can be improved by adding a few freeze dried main meals such as the Reiter main meal packets and Breakfast Oatmeal Sachets (Scotts Porage Oats) for multiday hikes. The breakfast meal should actually be considered a main meal. The meals can also be eaten cold just like the MRE. The cost of the ration pack can be had locally for about £5 or $10.

1 x Breakfast meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection) - 313 grams
1 x Main meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection) - 334 grams
1 x Dessert meal (in foil boil-in-a-bag packet, encased in a sealed polythene bag for added protection) - 222 grams

1 x Soup, powdered form, in sachet (varying flavours; Beef & Tomato, vegetable, Cream of mushroom, etc, manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd") - 50 grams

1 x Meat Pate, such Turkey and Herbs, Chicken and Herbs, etc (in small, ring pull opening, can) -85 grams
1 x Oatmeal block (A slight exaggeration! It is really just a small Oatmeal biscuit, in metallic green foil packet) - 26 grams
1 packet x Biscuit Browns (approximately 6 in metallic green packet) - 88 grams
1 packet x Fruit Biscuits (approximately 6 in metallic pink or green packet) - 99 grams
1 x Milk chocolate bar (usually a bar manufactured by "A. Gandola & C. S.p.A. of Italy", but sometimes a brand called "Duncans of (Bellishill) Scotland") - 60 grams
1 x Milk chocolate with raisins and cereal bar (usually a brand called "Duncans of (Bellishill) Scotland") - 60 grams
1 packet of Boiled sweets (various fruit flavours, manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd") -60 grams
1 packet of Wrigley?s chewing gum (usually Wrigley?s Extra, but sometimes a smaller packet of Wrigley?s chewing gum in tablet-like form) approx 10-15 grams

1 x Drinking chocolate mix sachet (manufactured by "Eurogran of Kalundborg") 52 grams
1 x Orange or Lemon drink powder sachet (manufactured by "Eurogran of Kalundborg") -50 grams

2 x Coffee sachets (manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")
2 x Beverage whitener sachets, for coffee (manufactured by "Chequer Foods Ltd")
4 x Instant white tea sachets (manufactured by "Premier Brands") - Yuck
8 x Sugar sachets (Manufactured by "Single Service")
1 x Vegetable stock drink sachet (manufactured by "Single Service")
1 packet x Kleenex Tissues (manufactured by "Kleenex")
6 x Water purifying tablets
10 x Water/windproof matches with striker (matches and striker sealed in separate polythene compartments, to prevent accidental striking during packing, handling, and transportation)

Sundries Total 150 grams

Total for Complete Ration Pack minus Cardboard Box approx 1612 grams

1600 grams is around 3.5 lbs, which is on the heavy side. Still, if one can get at least one, maybe two days out of one ORP, that starts approaching 1 lbs/meal.

There is, however, one little drawback for those of us who dwell on the west side of "the pond." I've done several searches, but ORP's seem to be unavailable in the US. MRE's are ubiquitous, but nary an ORP is to be found.

I include an Esbit "stove" in all my survival kits :
* they do not take a lot of space ;
* useful to help starting a fire ;
* useful to warm some water for a hot drink/soup ;
* OTOH, they will not boil a great amount of water ;


this in addition to alcohol stoves, that I take for more "serious" "cooking" ...

Do you have a particular alcohol stove that you like or have you made your own?

I pack an Esbit and a Trianga titanium alcohol stove because it's easy to find fuel for them...it's not so easy to find Esbit fuel just anywhere. Neither are especially potent but they'll boil enough water to reconstitute a freeze dried meal or a cup of tea fairly quickly.

You carry both? If you don't mind my asking, why don't you carry just the Trianga? Is the Esbit better when you can get the fuel?



Definitely, you'll not find Esbit fuel in corner store in a small town. You probably know more about this than I do, but I would think that MEC in Calgary would have the Esbit fuel tabs, although Edmonton to Calgary isn't exactly "just around the corner." They're sold online at http://www.armynavydeals.ca/catalog/esbit-solid-fuel-tabs-p-5511.html and probably other places.



That'll do in a pinch! Just what I'm looking for.

Hi Hacksaw,



You could always get a Vargo Titanium Triad XE Alcohol / Fuel Tab Stove

Hmm. Looks pretty cool. Is the little cup for alcohol or is that to extinguish the Esbit or ?

Trangia alcohol stove or home made penny stove..

for the short hikes I do, my "serious" cooking is boiling water to rehydrate my food... only the volume of water is bigger than for a hot cocoa drink, during a day-hike.