From CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/22/wildfire.ca/index.html

RAMONA, California (CNN) -- Helping residents who ignored evacuation orders diverted fire crews away from firefighting efforts Monday as wildfires burned out of control in the San Diego area, officials said.

"We've been unable to do any suppression effort because, in most cases, the fire resources are being used ... to do rescues," said Bill Metcalf, chief of the North County Fire Protection District in Fallbrook.

Metcalf said the wildfire situation in the San Diego area "has gotten dramatically worse overnight."

As the sun rose in Southern California, "we're faced with a situation ... which is worse than many of us could've imagined," Metcalf said.

Authorities ordered thousands of Southern Californians to evacuate Sunday and Monday as at least 12 wildfires, driven by hurricane-force winds, set trees, cars and buildings on fire.

Officials reported at least one death and 17 injuries Sunday.

A long line of vehicles streamed westward out of Ramona, northeast of San Diego, on Monday morning after the mandatory evacuation order as flames of the Witch wildfire closed rapidly on the San Diego County community of 10,000 homes.

(Continued Online)

FOLKS: If this isn't the definition of "Go Time" I don't know what is.
I feel bad that this is about to get really, really, really a whole lot worse because RIGHT NOW is the time that they need suppression the most, RIGHT NOW is when they need the roads as clear as possible, RIGHT NOW is when they don't need to be racing to help a diabetic emergency when a firefighter might be burned trying to save a chunk of the city.

For those who ignored the evacuation order, shame on you, all of you. For those of you who were equipped and got out of the way, thank you.

Well spoken!

I have a novel idea - don't run around and try to save them - let Darwin take it's course, and the NEXT time, people WILL leave

Too bad they can't bill them for the "free" government services. If people understood how much they were costing their neighbors, in money, inconvenience and increasd risk, they might think twice.

On second thought, the Darwin option sounds right.

I'm literally in the area it feels like I just drove to through the night to get back home!! My school was let out just after 1st period (we have 55 minute periods).

-JAce

Some people are here simply to serve as an example for others...

Save children, infirmed, and addle-minded; allow adults to appreciate the consequences inherent in their decisions.

That drives me nuts. I mean, seriously, this crap happens every October. How do people NOT know what to do? Darwinism needs to be reinstated.

Jace, did you ever get your school kit in order? If so, how's it working out with the fire situation?

Believe me, I sympathize with this sentiment, but in California (and probably most other states) police, fire and rescue personnel are required by law to provide assistance to anyone needing it. I can't decide to rescue this person but not that one simply because I think the second guy should have known better and has caused his own problem.

IIRC There was a lawsuit several years ago where someone sued the local law enforcement for failing to protect them. The resulting decision was that the police existed to protect the population as a whole but could not be held liable for failing to protect a particular individual.

I'd have no problem with patrols having a pad of forms stating "I have been advised to evacuate & choose not to do so. XYZ services may not be available until the order is lifted. The municipality is hereby immunized from all litigation. Signed _____" You have the option of leaving or signing the form.

It would be more effective for something like a hurricane where there's more warning. For the fires they'd probably have to be in an area that the fire hadn't reached yet unless the evac notice is sufficiently large.

The news media sometimes has a tendancy to paint matters as black or white when the issue may be gray. People sometimes chose to not evacuate when the evacuation may be more hazardous than bugging-in. Its hard for us to judge their actions as we are not there. I'm not making excuses for those who may have indeed "ignored" the order.

Here in Florida, you may be under an evacuation order, but where do you evacuate to?? To I-95 to be stranded in traffic when the hurricane hits? To run out of gas in Jacksonville and be preyed upon by criminal elements? Fires are indeed a different animal and require different tactics. I just want to hear the whole story before conclude that its just Darwinism at work.

YMMV

Craig.

+1, celler.

People are so quick to criticize others based on the scantest information. Same thing happened after Katrina regarding those still in NOLA, and yet, if you took the time to find out why people stayed (or couldn't leave), then you suddenly realize that you might've done exactly the same thing if you were in their shoes.

Katrina also really rammed home the point to me that when you're watching some crisis unfolding on TV in realtime, much of the information you get later turns out to be wrong, too. Very wrong. But everyone keeps repeating the same incorrect info over and over because it sounds dramatic, and you hear it repeated until everyone takes it for gospel truth. I would not be surprised if this "so many people refused to leave" thing in San Diego county turns out to be a gross exagerration.

There is no law or any guarantee that grants you personal protection from any one or anything including yourself. Also Law enforcement and rescue personnel are not required by law to place themselves in harms way for any one or any reason, although they do so on a daily basis. They do so out of compassion and a very defined sense of DUTY and HONOR. Not because they are afraid of getting in trouble.

Friends of mine got out of one of the effected areas early this am. He, his wife and 3 kids were ready to go 20 minutes after they got the evac. order. They went through a similar situation a few years back and learned some important lessons. Now all five family members have go bags and it payed off today.

Today, because they were already equipped, they had time to gather family data and keepsakes ie: documents, pictures, jewelry in case they return to a burned out shell of a house.

This was in stark contrast all their neighbours who were rushing around like fools, trying to stuff all kinds of junk into their vehicles...

"People sometimes chose to not evacuate when the evacuation may be more hazardous than bugging-in."

This particular thread is about people refusing to evacuation in front of a pending firestorm. Unless you've got a really good hole in the ground, there ARE no worse hazards.

A lot of these people CAN evacuate, but they would rather stand on the roof with their hose, obviously not noticing that the heat is drying the roof just as fast as they wet it down. Or they stand around, wondering if they REALLY need to evacuate, and the flames are in the trees upwind of their house.

When you've got fires like this, there is NOTHING you can do but leave the area. It doesn't matter if you think God will protect you, or the wind may shift, or whatever pea-brained idea you've got is, but THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO, so get out of the gd'd way!

I'm with the Darwin idea. Some people are too stupid to live, so let them make their own decisions, but if they change their mind and call to be saved, well, it's just too bad. They made the wrong decision when they had a decision to make.

Sue

"...if they change their mind and call to be saved, well, it's just too bad. They made the wrong decision when they had a decision to make...."

Much as I hate to do it ( :)), I've gotta agree with you (again). By being stupid they are endangering the firefighters, and the property of many others. They do not have the right to do that, in my opinion...

Maybe they could evacuate everyone to the Staples Center and not let them leave...

Personally, I think the evacuation orders should read, “If you choose to leave, Godspeed to you. If you choose to stay, you will be helping us carry hoses. Thank you in advance.”

Sing it, sister!

As supremely annoying as it is to deal with, Darwinism for humans invovles helping out the slowest, dumbest, ugliest member of the clan/city/civilization because that might be the guy who accidentally bangs two rocks together and cuts himself on the resulting edge, or who's kid invents the polio vaccine. We're a species which passes most of the important information by language and less by genetics. We no longer benefit from these people dying in a fire so the "Fire=Bad" gene wins over the "Home=Good" gene. So I say, find some way to punish them if their actions endangered firefighters or destroyed property. But as satisfying as it would be for those people to burn to death or suffocate in the smoke, unfortunately we're really not benefited as humans by allowing that to happen.

kc2ixe, it's just a shame that your idea is "novel"!...when it should be the norm!

Grant, you're right about those personnel being required by law to render assistance and, as someone else already said, most of them would do it willingly, with or without a legal requirement. But this isn't about whether or not they should help (although I agree with kc2ixe), it's about whether or not they should even be placed into the position to have to help! Like most said, those that stay (peabrains that they are), place not only rescuers in danger, but others as well!

The best idea yet? Who was it that said.....get out and we'll handle it. Stay and you now work for us.

Even if you have a really good hole in the ground, it's just a grave. They had really good holes at Dresden- most people still died.

If you can't kill a fire, you need to be running away. And if the fire fighters are passing you, you didn't pack light enough. I know why people would stay, but putting emotion before common sense is a bad idea. (And I wonder why I'm still single.)

+1 to everything Martin said at the end of the orignial post.

The thing is there will always be stupid people... and do you really want firefighters, police officers and EMS workers (etc) who are willing to NOT attempt to protect/rescue those people?

Sure, they are a PITA and those people drive me nuts and I can assure you I [censored] about them after the call is done... but attempting that rescue is WHAT WE DO. Most fire agencies have a risk managment profile, ours states "we will risk our lives for savable lives"...

Found this link on fire.ca.gov
Its a Google map of the evacuation areas with shelters etc on it.

Wow, that map's pretty cool. I can't think of a better way to summarize that information. I wonder if the link to it is being widely distributed.

Well, I found out about fire.ca.gov from CNN, so I am guessing its pretty widely distributed