would you drive a hybird car?
If you drive a hybird car, can you tell me your experience in owning such car?

Does the car perform well in the winter?

In a New York second.

Just waiting for them to become closer to my price range.

Just bought a Matrix (less than 12 hours ago and still have a full tank of gas).


Not having much ground clearance = manageable.
(The number of people I know that had to go off road for Katrina was zero).

Not having 8 cylinders of power = already adapted to long ago.

Driving past the outta gas Humvees during a bug out situation = Priceless.

It depends on the car. I'd need to research it carefully. I gather the Prius is a bit environmentally unsound because the batteries, for example.

I recently rented a Toyota Prius in Jackson Hole Wyoming. I drove it through Yellowstone Park, out the west entrance, south through Idaho and back to Jackson. The hybrid really surprised me. It had enough power to really go when needed, but got great mileage when you drove normally. Through the park, speeds ranged from 55 to 35 in most places. A lot of up and down hills. The Prius handled them well. On the uphills, the engine and electric motors were working, and on the downhills, the engine is off and the batteries are charging. The only place I doubted the capabilities of the Prius, was going up Teton Pass. It was a 10%grade climb. The car sounded like it was in first gear doing about 8000 rpms(no tach). Going down the other side, we used engine braking(engine off) and the batteries recharged completely.
On this loop, we averaged 48 mpg! All in all, I think the Hybrid did very well and would consider buying one. I've been told by a Toyota dealer that it would be wise to trade it just before the battery warranty expires. It costs like $5000 to replace the batteries when they fail.
Hope this helps.

Truthfully, a hybrid gets much worse mileage than claimed. On rolling hills, often less then 50% of claimed mileage.

The batteries are extremely toxic, and less than 40% recyclable.

The cost differential leaves you needing to drive it for 33 years to break even.

If you get in a wreck, rescue personnel can't use the jaws of life, because the power cable amperage will kill the rescuer if cut through, and the manufacturers so far refuse to install a master disconnect for emergencies.

I can't find the data sheet right now, but the typical hybrid produces over 200 times more ozone than the average car.
That ozone destroys rubber components on the vehicle at an accelerated rate, as well as the environment.

If you want a vehicle built to appeal to hysterical emotionalism, bad ride, poor performance, overpriced, sloppy assembly, and worse for the planet, and logic be damned ...you really need a hybrid, so you can feel all smug and superior.

If you want a car based on logic, economy, safety, and quality, go look at some of the asian imports.

If you want go-anywhere quiet transportation, that gets over 100 mpg, and will haul almost 1000 lbs. in stately comfort, get a golf cart.

Not sure where you got your info, Fall... it's not accurate. And using words like "hysterical" and "smug and superior" just ends up labeling you, not others.

Here's some real data from a real user:

We have a Mercedes turbodiesel that can run on all sorts of oil (biodiesel, filtered waste oil). Good highway car, getting upwards of 34 mpg as long as we keep the speed near or under the limit.

So, as a complement, we got an AWD Ford Escape hybrid about a year and a half ago, which we really like. It's gotten a consistent 27-30 mpg, more on rolling hills at moderate speed (such as the coast highway in CA).

The fit and finish aren't anything like the benz, but it is a good performer, and has been on multi-day road trips, over the mountains in winter, and driven on snowy and icy roads with great performance and fine utility for us.

I don't think hybrids are "the answer", but they do get good mileage under many real-world circumstances, and are one way to cut back on both fuel consumption and emissions.

Turbodiesels and high-efficiency lighter gas cars also can get good performance - especially on highway driving (again, keeping away from blazing over-the-limit speeds, which will reduce efficiency and increase emissions for any car). What's been keeping the former out of many states is their emissions; hopefully those issues will be solved and we'll have more options to choose from.

I'd rather have the new diesel Audi A4 coming out in a few years.

3.0L Diesel
240hp
406ft-lb tq
40mpg highway
50 state emissions compliant

Plenty of power and great gas mileage. Though, being an Audi the price will be a bit high.


Right now though, I'm pretty happy with my gas mileage. I've got a diesel GMC Suburban and a gas V4/V8 GMC Envoy Denali. Both get over 22mpg highway and 15mpg city and have enough power to tow my atv/snowmobile trailers with ease. The Suburbans and Blazers we had previously were lucky to break into the teens, so 20+ is good enough for me. In an emergency I could fill the suburban with off-road diesel from the tanks on my property and drive for almost 1,000 miles before a refill, all with plenty of supplies in the back. For me, that's hard to beat.

Here is one report on hybrids. Doing a google for hybrid car mileage will give you lots more...

It is going to come down to how you use your car as to whether a Hybrid makes sense. Around town with plenty of stops and starts you get the advantage of regenerative braking and at city speeds hybrids will often stay in electric motor only mode so zero emissions and a whisper quiet ride. One recently noted disadvantage of this is blind people do not hear them coming when they are waiting to cross the road!

However on long haul highway driving you may well be better off with an efficient diesel. One of the car magazines did a bake off recently between a Lexus 4x4 hybrid and the new Merc 4x4 diesel over a few hundred miles and the Merc returned better fuel mileage.

OIMO

No, I would not but that does not mean you should not. Comparing like sized new cars the extra price you are paying doesn’t make economic sense, but buying a car is almost never about economic decisions. If you can afford it buy what you want.

The reason I would not is I always buy used, at least four years old. And a hybrid is going to be needing a very expensive battery in the near future at four years old. Which is an excuse for none of them are able to haul stuff or haul but. So until there is a “cool” hybrid sports car that makes my right foot happy or a full sized pickup truck that gets 40 mpg, i won’t be considering a hybrid.

I think thats when Toyota is going to finally bring their diesel Hilux (Tacoma) into the US, and hopefully Honda will be bringing over thier diesel line as well. Its about time.

I'd buy one if I did a lot of driving, but I only filled my gas tank about 8 times in the last 12 months. So, sending my perfectly good car, which still gets great gas mileage after 10 years, to an early grave would probably be a bigger burden on the environment than buying a more efficient car seeing as how I don't drive a lot.

Wrong info, Each car is slightly different, but for the most part the main power cable is a bright color to point out that it is not a "normal" cable. Also they tend to run under the car.
Having been a volunteer firefighter for the last 18 years in a dept that does a lot of car accidents I can tell you that there is no substitute for constant training and reading up on new tech like this. In that spirit I post the following link http://www.sceneoftheaccident.com/wst_page16.html This is a list of emergency manuals available to first responders.

I've driven one a little- I've two friends who own Priuses (Priui?). Little odd, I hate that all the data is on the center screen rather than on a proper dashboard (left eye dominant, have to actually think when I look down there). But nimble, great handling.

As for how they go in winter... It is front wheel drive and nose heavy. With good snow tires, so long as they don't hang up, they can muscle through snow if you are a decent driver. And if you find black ice, they will eat up guard rails like a pothead with a pack Oreos. The worst injury was a bloody nose from being popped by the air bag.

In mud, however, they can bog down a little if you aren't careful. But again, if you really know how to drive, it won't be much more of a problem than any other car.

Search the archives, we've talked about them from a safety perspective. But I might hold off a year or two- there are some new models that are supposed to go to market next summer with powerpacks that are being touted as better than the Toyota system. And honestly, if you are mostly doing highway driving rather than city driving, something like a conventionally powered Civic will still do you just as well on milage for a less money.

What I want is the regenerative braking stuff in a standard 4-cylinder, 5-speed, reasonably efficient gas/diesel car.

My miles are 90% highway, so the hybrid route is actually less efficient (adds extra weight). But: if I could charge a modest battery pack from braking, and use it later at home to power/charge all my electronic stuff, that would truly be efficient.

I'm trying to think of ways to add this "after-market" to my fine little Mazda -- but it always ends up looking like a "Mad Max" rod, I'm afraid.

Uhm... Yeah, most of that is wrong.

In highway (keep in mind, this is Vermont- rolling hills and small mountains are all we have that isn't water or swamp), the Priuses I've known get about 40-45mpg, while in urban driving they get about 50-52. Sure, that's a little under the 54mpg optimum that is listed for urban driving, but by less than 10%- you can loose more than that just not knowing how to drive very well. Strike one.

The batteries are closer to 60% recyclable, with that percentage rising anually. The batteries you are thinking of haven't been used in a while, and never on widely marketed production model. Strike two.

There is a master disconnect. I will state for a fact the the one on the Prius kills main power if the air bag deploys. Strike three, you're out!

And I'd like to see your data sheet, re ozone, and references to the original research. Because without it, I'm going to call BS.

As for the golf cart... Yes, that works if you live in a gated, selective community full of the very rich or the retired. For those who live and work in the real world, golf carts would have to improve to suck.

The hard part is going to be getting them into the country. The emissions requirements are based on the garbage diesel blends we used 20 years ago. If the pencil pushers will update the regs to reflect modern fuels, we'll get them. If not... yeah, there is a lot of very nice diesel toys we can't get in the US.

I would buy and drive a hybrid, but right now they're too expensive for me. I do think they're a step in the right direction, though.

I'm sorry, my friend, but I find it hard to believe the facts in your fact finding.


Where's the data on this one coming from? And...in rolling hills, what vehicle (other than aircraft ) doesn't suffer in mileage?


Maybe, but even more toxic than a tanker fuel of petroleum spilled along the roadway? How far can we get away from this "toxic" stuff before we realize it's ALL toxic?


This is a new one on me. The last I read the break-even period was 7 to 10 years. Don;t hold me to that, I'm relying on an aging mind for memory here.


Where is this extremely high-voltage power cable routed.... through every door and pillar of the car? It'd be more accurate if you "theorized" that they "might not be able to use the jaws of life if the area needing to be cut was the area where this "high voltage" cable was routed in most cars....like maybe one in a thousand cases (purely theoretical, of course)". Additionally, in an accident where the motor is not running and rescuers are working on the car, at that moment, how much voltage is coming from those DC cells and capacitors????? I'm curious here...


That sounds like pure BS...if you don;t mind my saying. A little logic and reasoning might go far here (or, I could be wrong...I was once, you know, 1972 I think). We need algore's input here on the environmental portion of that statement.


...hmm pure emotion coupled with no facts = pure emotion

I like those hybrids. As more are made and sold, they'll become more affordable and I'd love to have one. We have somewhat of a fuel crisis in the world. Since we are "prohibited" from drilling and research in certain areas of America, we find ourselves at the mercy of others for fossilized fuels. Anything we can do to make energy "cleaner", more available, and more affordable is good in my book.

A farmer I know runs all his vehicles (including tractors) on bio-diesel without having to change any of his regular maint. Every season he changes all the filters anyway and says that he doesn't notice any difference in performance one way ot the other.

I am really interested in find out more about converting a car to run on Brown's gas.

The main reason I don't like "hybrid cars" is the attitude of the owners (or at least all those I have met/work with).

From what I read Toyota is not bringing any diesels over, instead focusing on hybrids only. Honda and Nissan however are planning on bringing over diesels in their cars (Accord and Maxima).

The European and American companies will however be investing a lot into diesel technology. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Jeep are all working on (or have already released) diesel vehicles and GM/Ford/Dodge all have diesels coming out for their 1/2 ton trucks and possibly SUVs. The Hummer H2 is actually getting a 4.5L diesel and a six speed manual transmission towards the end of next year.

If they put that engine and trans in the H3 (which is possible, it does fit) I would buy one in a heartbeat, especially after I convert it to a solid front axel with a lift to take it off roading.

My father in law has one, MANY of my freinds have them, they all like them, and my next vehicle will be one.

And that last bit, my good man, was a personal attack on a member here and that's simply not allowed. Goodbye, thanks for playing.

Two points:
1. Cite statistics to back this up please.
2. The hybrid power train warranty from Toyota is 8yr/100k miles.



The SUV hybrids have towing capacity ratings. The Hybrid Camry is computer limited to 120mph. It has a 0-60 time of 6-7 sec IIRC.

Yes, I'd love to have 40mpg full size pick up but that won't be for a while yet. The battery technology isn't there yet.

I've got a Toyota Hybrid Camry. City & highway mileages are both between middle 30's and very low 40's. My best highway result so fare is 41.2 mpg by the dash readout. The city mileage is 37+ for nine months out of the year. It drops in the winter by a couple miles per gallon due to having to run to keep the engine temp up for the heater in town. We haven't had any real winter weather down here since I got it to see how the traction performs.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Now that's an image I can't get out of my mind (and brings back memories of some cats I went to school with).

I'm going to be chuckling all night long. After the day I've had, I needed that.

Thanks.

UTAlumnus, Should have been a little more specific. The newest vehicle i have ever purchased was almost 5 years old, the last one was 6 years old with around 80k on the odometer. While the battery may last quite a while past it's warranty period, i really doubt it. I have only had one car not have a battery fail in within 6 months after i bought it. Maybe after the hybrids have established a longer term track record, ten to fifteen years, i might change my mind. Will have to wait and see.

The SUV's are ok, but they will not haul what my truck will in the back. And my full size truck with a V8 struggles when i have my 6x18 tandem axle trailer behind it especially with the Kubota on it.

The Camery may be quick by the numbers, but it is not a sports car. It's not rear wheel drive, weight distribution is not good (doesn't handle well), the top doesn't drop, and it's like sitting in your living room while driving down the road. Maybe haul but is the wrong word set, spirited driving is more like it. And while i would not mind having a truck with four doors, my current one has three, i can't bring myself to buy a car that is available with four doors.

I can see the hybrid batteries failing early or right on time too, but that's just another consideration someone has to make when deciding to purchase one. Like most cars and trucks, about the time the warranty expires, you're going to have to spend a little because....well, because that's why warranties expire when they do

I'm waiting too to see how manufacturers respond to these problems as the years go by. Plus, as more are made and bought and sold, not only will they get better but they'll get cheaper too. Or, at least, they'll get more comparable to their conventional counterparts.

Interestingly, we're finalizing a deal on a new car today! Our first concentrated effort at buying with economy in mind. No, I won;t tell you what brand/model we're getting, because you guys will burn me up in flames! But we did consider the hybrid version of the vehicle. It's just too expensive relative to the conventional model to justify the expense. Maybe in a few years and when the MFRs have gained more wisdom with these cars.....

Different kind of batteries though. The starting battery in your car is a very old lead acid technology and used hard and not really maintained well compared to a smart battery charger.
But WRT hybrid car batteries the big issue isn't having to replace it after warranty, its the size and cost of the job.
Any vehicle I've owned I could rebuild an engine or transmission for under $1000 should it completely die but to replace the battery pack in a hybrid is a major expense which will probably be more than the blue book value of the car.

Yes the batteries are different, i don't know if the lead acids are not used because it is old tech. Thought the problem with lead acids is more along the lines of heavy tech. Pasted plate starting batteries are not made to be cycled to any depth, deep cycles makes the paste fall off the plates. Makes the battery fail quickly. Good deep cycle batteries, forklift batteries, will handle years of cycles before needing replacement. But a small forklift battery weights half as much as my car. And the heavier the car is the less fuel efficient the car is as a rule. But if hybrids used lead acid batteries i might have more faith in the long term viability of the car. The problem i see down the road, other than the replacement cost of a new battery, is when the car is 10 to 15 years old the battery fails and you go to the dealer and ask for a new battery. And they smile and say we don't make that part anymore. You now have a nice hybrid boat anchor.

You are also correct, if the maker still has the battery years down the road it will cost more than the car is worth for replacement and installation.

No, I wouldn't buy or own one. They push the pollution upstream, I understand that they are far dirtier (less green) than a normal internal combustion engine.

If I was worried about being green or whatever, I'd get a diesel, but I'm not worried about it either way. Lots of cars get mileage that approaches that of hybrids. Getting very high mpg's just isn't that important, many other factors are.

How about a full sized hybrid pick up that gets about 30mpg and doesn't give up much in the way of towing at that efficency? They've made them as prototypes- give it three or four years.

But I think the "horsepower" argument is the most pointless I've ever heard, unless you are just being belligerent. No one is saying that hybrids work for everyone- they don't. I wouldn't bother, because as much as I like them, I don't spend enough time in city traffic to justify it, for my type of driving you can get the same performance for less money. If you need the towing power, drive a beast. But if you can't justify the expense of owning such a truck, why would you want to?

A car is a tool. You buy the one that best fits your needs and budget. Anything else is just Freudian.

A Camry? The Escape? Please not the Civic, anything but the Civic.

If it was, we won't burn you. Just drive safe.

*bows head for a moment of preemptive silence*

:P

No problem- it reminds me of guys I dormed with to. Some rooms you avoided going into due to the risk of a contact high. *shudders*

Nope, I wouldn't buy one. I'm concerned over the environmental impacts that the hybrids bring to the table. Not to mention the vehicle purchase price and the fact you need to drive for years to be able to catch up to the fuel savings.

A diesel would be my vehicle of choice, with fingers crossed that bio-diesel production increases.

Would like to have a pick up that would get 30 mpg. The one that i have seen was made by GM and was more of a big generator than a true hybrid. It will have to depreciate quite a few more years before it would be in my budget.



Ironraven, are you making fun of my sports car that has a rip-roaring 140 horse power. Should also mention that I have owned several V8 powered muscle cars, still have friends that are dumb enough to let me drive their very powerful muscle cars and the only car that I have ever been stopped for speeding in was the little 140 horse power mazda.

But I do know what you mean about owning a beast sized vehicle and not using it for it’s intended purpose. I use my truck as a truck, it’s made to tote and haul and that is what I do with it. But I know plenty of people that never use one for anything other than getting down the road.



A truck is a tool, a cool car is freudian.

My wife and I have a running joke about the inverse relationship between penis size and truck size.

(never objectively validated this myself but it's still funny and feels better to think it especially when some shmuck has got his sheep's head up my rear-end on the interstate).

... "so you can feel all smug and superior."

That could have been phrased more delicately. Perhaps something along the lines of: As I see it many of the people who buy these vehicles are doing so for reasons other than efficiency and saving the planet. Many of them seem to be primarily motivated by a desire to ... "feel all smug and superior".

In effect saying the same thing without pointing a finger at anyone in particular and phrasing it more as an observation than an insult.

Fallshirmjager has something resembling a point. Hybrid cars are not the be and end all of automotive efficiency. Made worse by the fact that the manufacturers haven't been exactly up front with the real-world mileages and the down side of a battery pack that both represents a major proportion of the total replacement cost of the vehicle and one which has a limited lifespan even if everything goes well.

It isn't as if the manufacturers and advertisers in this society are squeaky clean and always completely honest. That hybrids would get in real life something less than what the sticker says shouldn't surprise anyone.

I thought the EV-1 was a good idea. As someone noted it wasn't a car that was for everyone. It would only fit the usage of about 70% of the people. The remainder would have to use something else. OF course the EV-1 program was killed as soon as the mandate expired and it no longer fit the makers image as a company pushing efficiency and advantage.

Europeans have gone into diesel technology. It is a simple and effective technology. Little known fact: The first diesel engine was designed to run on vegetable oil. Diesels would eliminate the need to change vegetable carbs to ethanol. A process which is hard to get more energy out of than you put in. Planting an oil crop and squeezing out fuel is much simpler and inherently more efficient. It is also easier to store, ship and use efficiently.

IMHO the biggest problem with hybrids is that in trying to be all things to all people they are trying to do too much. The complicated mechanisms that are cobbled together to try to make this happen have a lot of potential issues. Many of these will not become entirely apparent for years after the initial purchase. Reliability, repair-ability, the consequences of crashes and long-term durability and practicality remains to be seen.

I would buy a small vehicle with a efficient diesel if one was available. I would also buy an updated version of an EV-1. But neither of these is set up to be available and function in this country.

I don't have anything against hybrids. I have friends that love their hybrids. While both diesels and electric cars are well known technologies hybrids seem to me to be in an early level of development. In another five years a lot of the long-term issues will be known and hurdles, like finding a mechanic that will work for reasonable prices, will be solved. Or not. I think I will hold off strongly considering one until the jury has returned a final verdict.

... "so you can feel all smug and superior."

I didn't see this as pointed to anyone in particular, although, it sure could be pointed at many of the people in my office. As a general comment, I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Am I banned now too?

VW and Mercedes both make (or made last year) midsize diesel cars and SUVs in the states. Jeep made a diesel Liberty SUV and now makes a diesel version of the Grand Cherokee. Lots of other companies have diesels on the way out (Audi, Honda, Nissan, ect). They're out there (or they will be soon) and they get great mileage. I had a friend with a diesel Jetta that would get near 50mpg highway. That's hard to beat. Most people don't even know they exist though, since the diesel models aren't heavily advertised.

Like, Did you know Mercedes currently has four diesel models currently available? All getting 30% better gas mileage than their gas counterpart, with much more torque, while only costing $1,000 more? Most people don't.

We got the Escape 2.4 liter (or is it 2.3?). It was a close race between the Escape and the Toyota RAV4. In the end.....well, I told the end first.

I 'preciate the prayer........

I'm not picking per say- I'm the guy who learned to drive stick becuase there is a wonderful thing called a Shelby Cobra. The real one, not the remake. But if I ever own one, yeah... It will a toy, not my everyday ride. (Still, I'd have to put in a mini safe for a CZ-75 if I did.) But I'd get a chuckle if you only owned a sports car.

It's not the manufacturers numbers that you see on the window sticker. Those numbers are from unrealistic EPA test requirements and the new revised tests have even more error in them. With the hills and traffic lights around here I come close to meeting the EPA numbers from the old test methods.

From the Toyota web site Toyota web site


I only get down to these mileages if I'm hotroding it in the winter in town. During warmer weather my best highway mpg was 41. For real world mileages try here greenhybrid.com. Getting them in town does require changing your driving habits some but its not a large change. Anticipating lights going red so you can coast rather than running up to the intersection & braking, the difference between accelerating smartly and a jackrabbit start, etc.

"...I didn't see this as pointed to anyone in particular..."

I suspect that, since it was below a quote from a particular person, that was the reason for the "zap"...

A friend of mine has a real 289 Cobra (CSX 2208) that he has owned since he was a teenager. He bought it for $3,000. Today it's worth at least $250,000. Talk about a return on your investment. I would love to own his car, but I've got an '03 Mustang Cobra convertible with 500hp that keeps me busy. It's not the same, but at least I've got the faster car.

The Prius was released for public sale in Japan in 1997 & the US in 2000 (they test them & work the bugs out first over there).



Most definitely. That's why I hated giving up the pickup for it. 200 mile round trip commute for school two days a week & 12yr old w/ 120k didn't go well together. That & the $70 fill up.



Its not intended to be. Its a four door sedan not a Mustang. The ride is the same at 80+ as it is at 55. Weight distribution is 58/42 front/rear IIRC. I haven't had to push the handling yet.

Ford didn't release an official anniversary edition but the designer that did the last body changes didn't forget it.

"...inverse relationship between penis size and truck size..."

We just bought a short bed P/U, is that good, or bad???

...inverse relationship between penis size and truck size..."

I don't think that has any truth any more. I have a full size truck and have nothing to proove, it was the only way to be able to carry four people and still have at least 6' bed, all the small trucks have real short beds when you have more than the standard cab.

I must really be hating it then. Not only do I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge, but it has a "Magnum" V-10 engine too! (Hangs head in shame... )

"...inverse relationship between penis size and truck size..."

What happens if the owner of the full-size truck is female? This kind of personal attack normally comes into play when someone can not justify their position other than attach the person.

There is even some kind of ad out there trying to use this same tactic. How pathetic!

How many trips does it take in a prius to get 6 adults and all their camping equip from downtown up 2 hours into the mountains for a weekend camping? Doesn't it makes sense to take a larger vehicle that can do it all in one trip?

I take issue with this!!!! This is not true! I have a Chevy Silverado crew-cab Duramax diesel! Just because I have a large truck does NOT mean I have a larg....... uh....well, I am offended....I mean....humbled.




((( )))

I was surprised a few months back when turned away from driving up the Mt. Washington Auto Road in a Prius. Apparently, they had sufficient problems with Toyota cars with CVT on the downhills that they banned them pending further study. They have now reversed the ban, and allow hybrids on the auto road, but some still claim that engine braking doesn't work as well in hybrids on steep descents.

I can picture a prius heading down a rather steep section just as the the song "rollercoaster" starts up on the radio...

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

I love that song!!

Old-people music rules!!!

Weeeeee!!!

Guess it all depends on how you drive it.

Ahhh!!! I thought old people music was Bing Crosby or the Beetles... really old stuff like that.

That's kinda kinky.

There's just something sexy about a woman in a pickup, call me weird (my wife does).



Relax OutdoorDad, Breathe in, breathe out. I'm mostly just venting.

I used to drive a Ford F150 in high school/college (but I've matured some since then )

I don't see everyone in a pickup as reproductively challenged. Only those that tick me off.

When I've got some NASCAR-wanna-be (as evidenced by the racing numbers in the back window) shoving his bumper up my exhaust pipe, sometimes the only productive thing I can do is laugh at him since I don't view shooting at the fool or running him off the road as viable options. I'd communicate with sign language my displeasure but I prefer to have both hands on the steering wheel for safety reasons.

I don't get almost sodomized at 70-75mph by too many people in BMWs, Priuses, Mercedies, VW Bugs, etc. though I do get a large number of late adolescent males on crotch-rockets trying to run me over but they don't pose much of a threat.

I write them off as natural selection at work.

Though if you find yourself tailgating some bald-headed guy driving through Baton Rouge and he's laughing at you as you pass him, you'll get the joke!!

Look, Listen and Take Heed, a Public Improvement Film.

Thanks OBG! I tend to scan quickly through posts, so I tend to miss a lot of the subtleties.

Let's talk MPG's, then. I have a good friend who has had several Honda Civic's, hatchbacks lately. He has consistently gotten over 50 mpg on the highway, over 40 city with almost all of them, proven technology, and they all have over 200,000 miles on them with little or no maintenance trouble at all. Why would someone like that want to switch to a hybrid?

If I'm going for MPG, that's what I'd get.

Its partly a question of power. The hybrid Camry gets 200% city & 30% highway better gas mileage. Its a larger car than the Civic, seating 4 larger men comfortably. I'm the smallest at 5'-9" & about 200#. The hybrid real world numbers are double in the city & 1/3 again on the highway compared to the EPA numbers for the 4cyl. model. This improvement comes while still having a net horsepower about halfway between the I4 & the V6 models.

The Civic hybrid gets about 50% better mileage in the city. The current EPA numbers are 36/45 gas only/hybrid.

What engine & vehicle weight does his Civic have? Is it the CVCC? The Camry weighs in at 3680#.

A better comparison is the Toyota Prius. I know two families with three between them that get 50-60mpg. It will seat four & has some cargo room behind the back seat.

From what I've driven it on mountain grades the ones having problems wait too long to start engine braking. They probably let it get away from them before shifting to brake & expect it to bring them to a screaming stop like gearing down with a geared transmission. There's a learning curve to drive a car with CVT or hybrid power train just like learning to drive a high profile vehicle safely when you've never driven one before.

Six + gear means two trips. For a weekend you could carry three adults plus a good selection of gear in one trip. If they pack well you might get four. It depends on what level of gear you plan for. A tent w/ sleeping bags, backpacker's stove, & non-cooler food would probably be doable at four plus gear. Adding cooler, lawn chairs, etc. will cut at leas one person worth of room from at least one trip. This assumes that you only pack up to the level of the back of the seat. Putting soft stuff above this will increase cargo capacity.

You generalized though that anyone driving a truck was compensating, you didn't limit it to those that were tailgating you.
Funny though I get tailgated in my truck by cars and SUV's made by BMW, Lexus, etc. And of course the small car with a big wing on the back.

His latest model Civic is a 2 door hatchback, it's probably a mid-late 90's. I don't know the engine and weight, but didn't CVCC end in the 80's? It seats 4 (not comfortably), but seems like it compares favorably to the Prius, and yes, it has plenty of power. I don't know the weight, but would estimate it at 2500 lbs or so. I've driven it, and am very impressed with the power and handling. And reliability and longevity of it. I can't see what all the extra money buys when you already have the economy in a car like this.

I'm selling my truck. Before reading this thread, I had no idea that people could see right through me. It's like people are wearing those x-ray vision glasses!

I'm gonna buy a small car and get some lead-lined shorts.

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My brain is burning now.

6? Two trips. Five? One trip, if three of you are very skinny and fit in the back seat. It helps if you can all pack light.

Done it a few times.

There is a special place for those people. It isn't in my heart, that's for sure.

Especially if they aren't intelligent enough to figure out how to switch to low beams.

IMHO a lot of the inherent inefficiency in transportation has its origin in psychology, learned inadequacy, and advertising.

Before WW2 cars were sized and fitted with an engine with a sense of proportion for what their role was. Cars were simple with engines that were often under 50 HP. Even heavy trucks had small engines. Load capacity was maintained by gearing. Trucks moved somewhat more slowly.

After WW2 came the 'muscle cars' and vehicles as symbols. Most 4WD vehicles will only go off road if they back over a flower bed. IMO, while some trucks and SUVs have their capability fully utilized most don't. I look around and the majority don't often carry much more than a sack of groceries.

I don't know about penis size. I don't have any desire to have folks drop trou so a they can be measured. Or even read about it. That said a whole lot of guys do seem to be compensating for something.

Vehicles sized for the role they fulfill would be a good step forward.

As mentioned there are good diesel vehicles available. Those Mercedes models are nice ... and pricey. IMHO there aren't many appropriate and efficient diesel vehicles available at reasonable prices. Perhaps in a few years the high dollar models will show up on the second-hand market at reasonable prices. This is the real test of longevity and value.

not sure how the US market is set up, but in europe you can easily get small, affordable diesel cars. We even have little (if not tiny) VW Lupo's and Polo's with diesel engines at work.

Only problem is that diesel engines produce more fine soot particicals (more air polution), so the goverment has put higher road taxes on diesel cars.

the most enviormently friendly solution is obviously leg power and more healthier too. That and public transport is how i get around. If i do need a car, generally for work, i get one from mine boss.

"...That said a whole lot of guys do seem to be compensating for something..."


Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

"the most enviormently friendly solution is obviously leg power and more healthier too. That and public transport is how i get around."

Unfortunately most of the US landscape is optimized for and centered around cars. Public transport is too often a bad joke. In many cities walking or taking a bike is pretty close to suicidal. I rode a bike for several years, and this in a city with a considerable number of amenities for bike riders, and every few months the combination of roads lacking room for bikes and drivers unfamiliar with bikes meant I had another 'bump and grind' dance lesson. Nice road cherries and my girlfriend lovingly combing the gravel out of my hide. The joy. It was only luck and paranoia that prevented my getting seriously hurt. In the same time two friends, who also rode bicycles, had life-threatening accidents.

I tried the busses but after I was late twice, and my boss told me if I was late a third time not to come in, I gave up on that unreliable system. A lady who used the busses told me the only way to make it work here was to always plan on catching the bus before the last one you wanted. That way odds were you either arrived an hour ahead or just in time. I wasn't willing to invest the extra hour each way. To this day I see her waiting, and waiting, for a bus to take her where she wants to go. One day she waited three hours before giving up. The bus had broken down and it wasn't replaced. Such is the way of smaller bus systems. They often lack spare busses. I now have a vehicle and give her a ride when I can.

Funny, tragic really, how things work out. We created a car culture and road design and architecture adapt to accommodate cars while, in effect, excluding other means of transportation. Have you ever tried to do some banking or get a meal after hours? Drive-through on a bike can be entertaining.

Go to Europe and most cities are bike friendly. Most locations have multiple modalities. If you don't want to use a bike there are walkways, trolleys, busses and trains for longer trips. And, of course, a car if you have one. In the US you either have a car or, in most locations, your a second-class citizen.

For the time being I think that individually owned cars are the only practical solution. I would love to see it more humane and adapted like in Europe but it isn't happening and it doesn't look like it will any time soon.

I really think that until the American people are willing and able to make major changes what we really need is a cheap, simple, easy to work on, efficient, people transporter optimized for two people and a sack of groceries. The EV-1 would just about fit the bill to get you work-home-shopping. You just remember to plug it in at night, when the electric load is lighter. If you want to go out of state or haul cargo you rent a truck or car.

Hybrids are OK but they seem to me to be overly complicated. Trying to do it all they lose a lot of efficiency. If the trip could be done on battery power alone the hybrid is hauling around an engine. If it needs an engine to get he range it is hauling around a heavy battery bank. Electrical generation plants are quite efficient at producing power. It makes sense to use them when they aren't otherwise overloaded. Like at night when you car could be recharging. But the hybrid needlessly repeats the effort in most cases by hauling around it's own generation station. A cord and plug would be much simpler and far lighter.

That's one more reason I love the USA! There are places for everyone and their diverse tastes. I like living in a small town away from mass transit and high density. I'd prefer a couple acre backyard to a local park any day.

There is even the option of Flexcars for those who would rather use one only once in a while. I prefer the freedom that having my own vehicles. Choice is good. You can even use a hybrid flexcar if you so choose.

I am very glad we have the choice to live in the place with the lifestyle we so choose. High density for those who prefer that and lower density for those who prefer that. Choice, diversity and variety is good.

ok... if I had to get a hybrid (if you consider electric cars hybrids!?!?) than I would go with this one

An electric car wouldn't, IMHO, be considered a hybrid. Add a small engine and you would have a hybrid. The Tesla is an electric car. And yes, I would drive one. If I could afford the "base price: $98,000". Ouch!

From:
http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/buyPage1.php

Not necessarily true. Horsepower limitation were based mostly on technology limitations and price limitations. People didn't need much more than 50hp because the poor brakes couldn't stop the car very well once it got moving, roads were poor, and for many a car itself was an expensive luxury, never mind having one with more power than another (not to mention price went up as HP went up).

Big trucks also suffered similar limitations. Most were chain driven, which couldn't handle much power (but they didn't need a lot of power either, because loads were often limited by braking [and power was made up for by gearing]). For example, My 1964 brockway only came stock with 230hp, but it had 20 forward gears. Once duel sticks (duel back-to-back transmissions) became illegal it was harder to get the amount of gears that they had previously, so power had to increase to make up for it. Not to mention pulling out on the highway with a 70,000lb load, while trying to shift two sticks, was a nail-biter. Now big trucks are around 350-500hp on average, but often they don't need 20+ gears to get up to speed.

Cars started out as a status symbol, an alternative to the horse drawn carriage (look at the custom coach built cars before mass production). It only makes sense that they would continue to stay a status symbol, even though it is now possible for most to drive a car. There was always a want for more power, more speed, more fun. Without it we would have never gotten the flat-head V8 in the 1932 five-window business coupe.

Saying we should go back to driving 50hp cars, is like saying we should all go back to the horse and carriage. I like having powerful vehicles, but I also think there should be options. Not everyone needs or wants a 500hp sports car. Europe has it down pat, offering everything from stripped out, low hp/low torque diesels for those who want excellent fuel economy and low price, to high HP turbo gas models, V8's, V12's, ect. Unfortunately, we don't seem to get the lower powered models since they don't sell well here and we don't get the diesels due to our insane emissions standards. Hopefully though, the future will bring about some more alternatives. Technology is changing fast (and manufacturers are starting to get a clue).

And more noise. They can be heard at least 3 car lengths away if its in any kind of truck and the window is down. (pick-up through 18 wheeler).

That's not how hybrids work. Its not an either/or operation. Its either/or/both depending on the load from second to second. Sensors in the vehicle determine which source of power to use as the terrain, acceleration, etc. demand.

The Toyota system:

Accelerating from a stop you will be using either battery or gas and battery depending on how hard you accelerate. Once you are up to speed you will be using battery or gas or both depending on battery charge and speed. The system requires the gas engine to be running if you are over about 40 mph to keep from overspeeding the electric motors. When coasting or coming to a stop you are regenerating power. Stopping uses generator resistance up to a point with regular hydraulic brakes added in after that.

By using the hybrid system, you get the best of both worlds. When speed or power are required you have both the gas and electric motors. When all thats required is lower speeds or on flat ground you've got the electric motor and aren't burning gas.

I couldn't find spec's on Honda's site before posting. From the pictures it didn't look like any of the current models were hatchbacks & the CVCC was the only one I remebered.

The Prius can carry four relatively comfortably plus cargo (about like the 80's Ford Bronco with the seats up for cargo IIRC). Basing multipliers on EPA test numbers for 2007 model year, your friend would probably be able to get 80/64 mpg city/highway.

As a compromise, I recently bought an eBike. That's like a push-bike with a small electric motor for assistance. It takes the pain out of hills and increases my average speed from around 10mph to around 15. I choose to live a couple of miles from where I work, so there is no real need to commute by car.

(It's not very useful as a survival vehicle, though. Better off with a normal push-bike for that.)

Getting back to the original question, would I drive Prius - yes. I own two, an '02 and an '07, and am happy with both. Before I bought the '02 I'd never owned a car younger than my kids, but I had the money and really liked three things about the car: fuel efficiency, tailpipe emissions, and the all-Internet buying program. I bought the '02 Prius for MSRP on toyota.com, delivered a $500 downpayment to the local dealer, and two months later when the car came in from Japan I brought another check for the balance due, and that was that. I think all told I paid $22,500 for that first Prius, and about $25,000 (all taxes title etc) for the second in June of this year. Its like the Visa commercials, car $20k+, not having to hassle with the car dealer - priceless. I have spent possibly two hours in a Toyota dealership since, mostly waiting for some OEM air filters and ordering the second Prius. It is not a high maintenance car by any means.

Tailpipe emissions is pretty important to me - I want to minimize my footprint, and SULEV ('02) and ZEV ('07) help alot. I like the fuel efficiency of diesels, but don't know where they will fall on the emissions spectrum. Biodiesel sounds great, except I'm not sure I like the idea of turning over arable land to producing biofuels longterm.

In terms of fuel efficiency I compare the Prius to the car I would have bought, probably a Corolla or Camry (three previous cars were Corollas). I get 40-44 MPG on the older Prius, 43-48 MPG on the newer one. Going up and coming down Mt Rainier National Park I can easily top 54 MPG, no worries about engine braking etc. But mid-40s is typical, and by comparison to the Corolla I'm getting better mileage with less emissions. I haven't pencilled out to find out when I've 'paid off' the Priuses - there was a big $2500 tax deduction on the first, and I'll get another $750 on the second, but in terms of driving and gas consumption I suspect it will all even out. Both cars together use less gas on a monthly basis that my wife's Honda CR-V.

The car is very much a Toyota - quality construction, but nothing too fancy. Absolutely zero issues with either car, provided I take care of the basic maintenance. The battery doesn't worry me a bit, I've heard of Prius taxis with 300K+ miles with fully functional batteries, I'll have parked the '02 and grow blackberries over it before it needs a refresh. Granted I can't fit a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the back, but I have strapped 4x8 ply to the top, there's not much I miss carrying in a full size pickup truck. Its a good trailhead car, getting me and up to 4 Scouts (one on the smallish side) where we need to get, full packs in the back. Yet we will take the Scoutmaster's Suburban for bigger outings, its just that much roomier and easier to collect a trip fee to pay off the extra gas. No problems with power, lots of front end torque that gets you off the line before most others, plenty of freeway speed.

Is it the car of the future, or some kind of only way to deal with the high price of gas and tailpipe emissions? How the heck do I know. But it does more than any other car along these lines I could locate at the time, and I was happy to buy both of them. As I once pointed out to a Detroit zealot, the difference between what Toyota achieved in the Prius and Detroit avoided doing at all was immense. Maybe the best thing about the Prius is coming to a stop light, and the engine just turns off. Silence - call it my aha moment. The newer one is a bit like driving Jean-Luc Picard's Enterprise to the '02's Capt Kirk's Enterprise - I miss driving the '02 actually. My daughter drives it now, and we're happy that she's in a relatively crash safe and fuel efficient car.

I won't cast aspersions on anyone who disagrees about the Prius, to each their own. I seem to hear some snide stuff from diesel proponents, sometimes from people who don't own a diesel but hold up the promise of diesel as some kind of anti-hybrid antidote. Really, what's the difference? Most Prius owners I've met are engine or tech geeks, they bought for economy or the whole tech package - they would be happy to see a competitive technology that does the hybrid one better. I don't think there are that many hybrid zealots, but you may have tough time convincing anyone who owns a Prius that next year's or the 09 diesels are really going to turn heads away from the hybrid. Me, I still have some questions on tailpipe emissions that diesel hasn't answered yet - but I hope they do, and the first diesels come in at a competitive ZEV / SULEV. And I may look at buying another car if Toyota puts out a plug-in hybrid, because my driving pattern would really benefit. I do think there's some wrong info put out there, which has been pretty effectively debunked by smarter folks than me. If anyone has a grudge, you might read up on the CNW study and how its been debunked. http://priuschat.com/Prius-vs-HUMMER-Exploding-the-Myth-t31938.html

Thanks. That's really good to know. It'll take me about 20-30 years to see that many miles.

No last time I looked into it (about a year ago) the hybrids appeared to be as bad or possibly worse on the environment than the "normal" autos we are use to! They did have the advantage of leaving the majority of their pollutants in places like China, Canada and some European countries instead of our own back yards!!

Besides if you run the numbers you are better off running your vehicles for 10+ years economically as well as environmentally since it hits both your wallet and the environment to make a new vehicle!!

Besides the 3 tons of crushed stone and load of wood that I hauled Friday would clash with the design specifications of the hybrids that I have seen!!

SD

I personally own TWO Toyota Prius - a 2004 (current generation) and a 2002 (previous generation) that my wife now drives. My folks and my aunt/uncle each own a 2006 Prius as well.

I have about 91k miles on mine, and my wife has almost 50k miles on hers. My experience has been a consistent 47-52mpg in my car, and I've had as high as almost 60mpg when I chose to really baby it for a tank. My wife's experience is lower MPG due to very short trips and the design of the 2002's A/C system that requires a running engine. Combine that with Phoenix heat and sitting in parking lots picking up kids from school will yield a lower number. It's still higher than she'd get in a conventional car, and FAR better than a typical "soccer mom" SUV.

The battery cable info is FUD. The cables run down a protected raceway underneath the car, are bright orange, and carry DC current only. The airbag deployment does trigger a master disconnect. Even if the batteries were live, cutting through one cable would not cause injury as neither + or - terminals are bonded to the car. Toyota has, on multiple occasions, disseminated rescue info for all of it's hybrid vehicles to ensure rescue personnel safety. They clearly outline how to handle a battery puncture incident as well as where the battery cables are and what the risks of compromising them might be.

I can't vouch one way or the other on battery recycling with the exception that Toyota owns that responsibility. My original battery is just fine on my car, and there have been example cases with cars 2x my mileage still going strong on the original battery. Reuse of "wrecked Prius" batteries would be a likely option down the recycling channel through reuse to limit "adding new batteries" to the pool.

I'd say drive one - see if it fits your needs. Let go of the American need for horsepower and you'll do just fine with this. Tt's an extremely versatile "hauler" in that I can toss my seats down (front included) and fit many typical household and gardening items into the car. For me, it also makes a great server hauler. ;-)

Yes - I also participate on PriusChat.com as well.