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#108985 - 10/18/07 04:43 AM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
OBG, I've hit that Vietnam wall several times already.

"That my friend, is the future of our nation... "

Yes, but is that dumb enough, or do we keep going downward???

"... the glory that was Rome is of another day..."

I'm afraid our glory days are past, too.

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#108988 - 10/18/07 05:18 AM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Susan]
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Susan
....Americans tend not to think much of France, but any child there can read from any book by the time he's six years old. .....
Sue


I'm not sure it's still true .... crazy
_________________________
Alain

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#108989 - 10/18/07 05:23 AM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Susan]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Unfortunately, being somewhat a younging I was in-between the "old" math and the "new math." We still learned most of the old stuff, but they tried to introduce other methods and procedures. To this day I think it did me more harm than good. I had problems learning the basic fourth/fifth grade math, and now I have problems with advanced material. (for the life of me I couldn't do high school algebra, even when being tutored by two people).

Now I often end up helping my 12 year old brother with his school work (everything other than math at least whistle). The kid is twelve years old and he can't write his name in script. While talking to him about it, I learned script is no longer taught in schools. If script is gone, what else is missing?

The more I sit back and look at what he is learning the more I think our educational system needs a full revamp. They spend a lot of time trying to learn concepts without having a firm grasp of the basics.


Edited by Paul810 (10/18/07 05:24 AM)

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#108996 - 10/18/07 11:38 AM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Paul810]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I recall taking a test as a freshman in high school and having the results tell me I was at the same level academically as a freshman in college. Then I took a similar test as a sophomore with similar results. After that, I wondered why I would need to go to college if I was learning the same thing now as I would be there.

Later on, I found out my conclusion was spot on. My first two (and only) years as a college student were little more than review of the same stuff I was doing in high school. I think maybe the last quarter of my 2nd year on an Associate's degree was to start into the actual "degree specific" content. Too bad the school abolished my degree right before that quarter started.

I've since discovered that most of the college grad engineers, accountants, and business managers learned very little about how to actually do their job while in school, and got most of their education on the job, just like I have. That is, if they are worth a darn.

I never could stomach all those required liberal arts classes I had to waste my time and money on either. If I want to study Shakespeare, I will do it when I have spare time and nothing else of any interest going on in my life, not when I am scrambling to get through a program so I can get a job.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#108998 - 10/18/07 12:50 PM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Susan]
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
It all comes down to parenting--or lack of it. A large segment of our society has bought into the European notion that the government should be raising the kids rather than the parents. Another large segment simply doesn't care what happens to their kids as long as they can score some crack or meth. There is a definate gap between kids whose parents care enough--or are capable enough--to be active in their education, and those who do not.

And that's why I don't buy into the doom and gloom visions of the future. We still have parents who care about their kids enough to get involved. You won't hear as much about those kids because they don't end up on Leno, but there are still plenty of them around.

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#109000 - 10/18/07 01:36 PM Re: dumbing down - Obituary [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
BrianTexas Offline
Ordinary Average Guy
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 304
Loc: North Central Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Hi BrianTexas,

I'm afraid I don't know to much about the levels of educational achievement within the US schooling system and the issues surrounding some perceived crisis within that system. Is there really a crisis in attainment levels or is this just nonsense put forward by some for nefarious ends.

I came across a term called New Math. Hmm New Math I thought, I was intrigued and delved a little deeper and came across this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

College students can't multiple 6 times 4 without a calculator!! eek

Is this true or just hype? I'm having a hard time believing this.


Since I'm a private school teacher, I'm not qualified to discuss the public school system in detail. However, what I've found in education is that there is a fascination with being "bleeding edge" as opposed to "leading edge" when it comes to educational teaching methods. Many so called 'new' ideas are just rehashed old ideas that went out of favor.

Their really is a crisis in education. I've seen it with the declining skill sets (with inversely related 'self-esteem')
of people I had to hire.

The business world simply doesn't tolerate too much of this nonsense, especially if a company's existence is in question. The Darwinian process of weeding out weaklings helps keep it in check. However, in education, I've seen more consultants in 7 years than with nearly 20 in the corporate world.

That being said, most teachers and administrators are honorable, decent, hard-working people who can only do so many miracles when absentee parents bring their spoiled and lazy children to the school.
_________________________
Also known as BrianEagle. I just remembered my old password!

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#109001 - 10/18/07 01:54 PM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Susan]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
Originally Posted By: Susan

I'm afraid our glory days are past, too.


I'm afraid you are right. Sigh.
_________________________
Our most important survival tool is our brain, and for many, that tool is way underused! SBRaider
Head Cat Herder

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#109042 - 10/18/07 10:09 PM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Stu]
Erik_B Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 315
Loc: Somewhere in my own little wor...
I'd say our Glory Days were back in the Age of Reason. Since then we seem to have only gone downhill in general. As we've progressed technologically, we've regressed intellectually, on average. I think this can be largely blamed on two things: 1. the strive towards political correctness, and 2. the fact that our technology now does most of the thinking for us. Why learn math when a computer can work the whole equation for you in the time it takes for you to read the problem? Why learn proper English when chatspeak is becoming the dominant form of communication?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: scafool
Camping teaches us what things we can live without.


Originally Posted By: ironraven
...Shopping appeals to the soul of the hunter-gatherer.

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#109044 - 10/18/07 10:14 PM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Erik_B Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 315
Loc: Somewhere in my own little wor...
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
Or, we watched Jay Leno one night, and he was at the back of the stand, where folks just graduating from one of the Souther Cal Universities were coming down right after receiving their sheepskins. He asked one graduate how many moons the earth has, and, after a long pause, she replied "...oh, it has been so long since I had that class".

That my friend, is the future of our nation...


Can you provide a link to that segment? It's not that i doubt your word, but I just CANNOT believe that anyone who's managed to graduate from high school wouldn't know how many moons are orbiting around the planet on which they live. She must have been putting him on.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: scafool
Camping teaches us what things we can live without.


Originally Posted By: ironraven
...Shopping appeals to the soul of the hunter-gatherer.

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#109061 - 10/19/07 12:27 AM Re: watch out for the dumbing down of others [Re: Erik_B]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"She must have been putting him on."

Sorry, no, it's not hype and it's not propaganda.

As a group...
They don't know which states surround their own.
If you gave them a list of the Revolutionary War, the Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, they couldn't put them in chronological order, or even tell you what any of them were about.
They have no idea what a Periodic Table is.
They can't really tell the difference between 'receipt', 'recipe' and 'receive'.
They can't compose a grammatically correct sentence.
They don't know what a gross is, or how many cubic feet are in a cubic yard.
They don't know how to address an envelope.
They don't know how to balance a simple checkbook.
Even given all the information, they can't figure out a relatively real-life problem in logistics.

OF COURSE, their parents are partly to blame: THEY were brought up by the SAME school system! What would you expect?

I think it happened in Israel, where the schools copied the American way of education. A year or two later, the parents were screaming in rage, and insisted they go back to methods that work. Do you see the parents here complaining very much?

I heard that private schools are are quietly hiring more and more homeschooled instructors, because the system-educated ones are ignorant and inept.

Sue

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