I've looked at lots of posts here about long-term survival, and people have considerable stashes of water, grains, and so on, along with fuel and gear.

I live in earthquake country in a condo. My storage space is in a building that I don't expect to be standing after the Big One. I live in an area bounded by freeways with overpasses that I don't expect to be standing, so I plan on sheltering in place. I live near a stream where I do expect to be able to get untreated water whenever I need it.

There are no self-storage areas in my neighborhood; the closest one has been built below a large aerial freeway interchange. :-> I'm sure the land was cheap.

My thinking so far has been to get together with all the looters and hit the two local supermarkets as quickly as possible. (One is a high-end gourmet market, by the way, so we'll eat well as long as it lasts.) Or maybe not. Who can tell?

It's an urban area where there are no crops and the only animals are lapdogs and the occasional rescued greyhound.

What's the agenda for people who live in cities with no space for bulky food storage?

My first thought is a jar of peanut butter and a jar of vitamins. It'll give you enough calories to keep functioning, but that's about it. The other option is survival bars like Datrex or Mainstay. They don't take up much space. If nothing else, two dozen Snickers Bars in you BOB.

Yummy? No (except for the Snickers). Keep you alive? Yes.

How many days worth of food do you want to have? Three days? Three weeks?

How much can you afford to spend? Can you afford to purchase stuff especially for emergencies and throw it out/replace it when it expires or can you store what you eat/eat what you store?

Do you want food that'll just keep you alive or food you'll actually enjoy eating?

As far as raiding for food goes, think outside the box...what businesses are around you? Do they have employee cafetrias or at least snack vending machines? Do they have breakrooms with coffee? Sugar+creamer+water will give you calories. Do food delivery boys or coffee trucks pass by at certain times? Are there any possibilities for guerilla gardening?

Read books about prisoners of war, depression-era living and other stories of people who had to make it through tough times. You'll glean a lot of tips from them as well as have a better understanding about what people need (or are willing to do) to survive.

Short term, it's all about calories...

-Blast



-Blast

Along with what blast said one thing to think about is the fact that the only ones faster about getting around than looters are reporters. After the King riots in LA they used the media pictures and video to prosecute people for months after things settled down.

My wife and I also live in earthquake prone suburbia in a one bedroom 700 sqft condo. We have plenty of room for bulky food and water storage. You just have to prioritize your storage space. Hmmm old tennis rackets and holiday decorations or food and water...tough choice. One other approach we have used is under and behind the bed and behind our bookcase. Hell, I bet superpails (6 gallon buckets) would make great end tables to the modern survival decorator. My wife vetoed the latter idea.

Get creative is the bottom line...most of us have too much crap that could use a little prioritization. The biggest short coming to a small place I have noticed is fuel storage for heating and cooking. The only solution I have found is a couple gallons of denatured alcohol/methanol for my camping/backpacking stoves and a solar oven. Large propane, diesel or gasoline storage tanks just isn't feasible for us condo folk.

If you need a good cheap outlet for long term food storage check out: survival acres out of Washington state. We have purchased all of our food here.

The owner is a bit of a ranting TEOTWAWKI type survivalist but he is very friendly and has the best prices on food + shipping around. He has some good food plans and is very up front about stating the deficiencies of the plans (namely fat, oils can be bought separately in gallon sized containers at supermarkets to fill the gap).

Good luck!
Cheers,
Nemo.

All country is potentially earthquake country. Have you lived through any major seismic events? I am sitting at the desk my great grandmother sheltered under in 1906 San Francisco. I have been through numerous earthquakes including the Northridge quake. I'd really like to know where you are, as your 'plan' is hardly SOP for those who have experience in such things.Looting? do you have a firearm and are you prepared to add premeditated murder to burglary, breaking and entering and theft? You need a major rethink here.

Storage is not as hard as most people make it out to be- you have space you aren't using.

Do you have book shelves that you've got three or four inches of shelf between the front edge and the books? Put stuff behind the books.

Under the bed is the classic. Ditto under overstuffed couches and chairs. Or dressers and wardrobes.

Odd corners in the closet, maybe on either side of the door at the front, where you basically have to get into the closet to find what is in them?

My personal favorite is to use a couple of totes, Conterra foot lockers or 5 gallon buckets and a peice of plywood to make a coffee table. Put a sheet over it, and it looks like fairly normal. Put sheets over your other living room furniture and tuck them in, so everything matches.

You'd be amazed how little space two weeks of food actually takes up when all is said and done. It is water that is bulky. Store what you eat, and rotate it.

I'm no expert, but here are my ideas, FWIW ...

First things first: kudos for recognizing that you're in a situation that could turn sour in a hurry. Facing that fact, and doing something about it, is more than a lot of people seem willing to do.

I feel it would be very difficult to make ends meet in your location for more than a few weeks. Even that assumes you have adequate food resources, water and water treatment gear, and the ability to lay very, very low (be invisible, fly under the radar).

Travel, as you suggest, would be extremely difficult and risky at first. But I would imagine that after 2-3 weeks, even in a disaster, it may be possible. Motorcycle? Bicycle? On foot?

At that point, I would say you need to bug out. You simply don't have the resources around you to sustain yourself. Do you have relatives you could make arrangements with? You need a reachable location that will be expecting you. (If you arrange this beforehand, and show up with useful skills and attitudes, you will probably find a welcome.)

Anyway, that's my take on it.

You aren't a dog show person, are you?

Lots of dog show people have a bunch of dog crates in their homes. They are referred to as "end tables" and "coffee tables" and are covered with cloth. Usually they are full of things like kongs, stuffed toys, and frooming and agility equipment. As Ironraven said, containers covered with sheets can hold a lot of food.

If you buy new furniture, buy with storage in mind.

If you're in a high-density area like SF, I am assuming that the military would arrive at some point and open up a few roads for access. That could be the time to bug out to friends or family, if they're within easy reach.

"Getting together with looters" is not an option. You are competition, and most of them know how to get rid of competition really fast.

Sue

> My storage space is in a building that I don't expect to be standing after
> the Big One.

Well, it's interesting that people are suggesting storage behind bookcases, covered boxes full of foods for end tables, and the like, when I don't expect to be able to get into the house. I guess I should have made it clearer that I don't expect my living quarters to be standing after a big quake. I expect the unit to be collapsed. I've got stuff in my condo now, but I don't expect to be able to get to it after the big one. Given that expectation and the fact that I have no outside place to cache food, any suggestions?

Sorry for causing so much confusion in my statement that I don't expect my building to be standing after a big earthquake.

Being an apartment dweller in a 50's era building I understand your concern. I always keep a case of 1.5L bottled water in the trunk along with the usual extras. Aside from your car(s) the only thing I can think of is a single story storage rental space. You could rent a small, cheap unit, preferrably with a manually (non-electric) locking gate so it would still be accessible without power.

you wrote:
>>>My thinking so far has been to get together with all the
>>> looters and hit the two local supermarkets as quickly as >> possible.

There's a good chance you'll be arrested and go to court; if you aren't shot by the owner.
The last thing a survival situation needs is that kind of thinking. Katrina was very unusal. Normally everyone is being fed and watered in a few days at most.
If you do end up needing to go 'shopping'leave leave a cheque. Prepare this cheque before you go in. Then if you are caught you have evidence of good intent.
Simon

That being the case, move. Do you own this condo or rent? Is it an apartment type or a townhouse? In any case, if you are convinced the building won't survive, move and get a place that's more survivable.

If moving is not an option because the commute to work is too good now or would be too long after, then you've made a choice you need to live with. Life is full of choices, but joining looters as "Plan A" is just plain stupid. Rule of law will not stop with a Mag 9 earthquake.

Bug out, best suggestion I've heard so far. If you've got the cash buy a motorcycle. I new honda rebel can be had for $3000 and a used one in good shape for about half that. You don't need a high end cruiser or an awesome off road bike, just something that will get you down the road. Buy a couple of paniers or saddlebags to carry your gear. If you have a car, keep your gear in the trunk and just transfer it to the motorcycle in an emergency.

Have a place to bug-out to. Maybe get a storage unit out of the immediate area.

Well if it was me I would have a rather extensive BOB bag for myself and anyone else in the house. Besides that, seems your other option as LED mentioned is your car, thats assuming it doesn't get swallowed up during a quake. If it were me and the roads were blocked I would grab my BOB and hike out of the area trying to chose the safest route to a pre determined location like family or friends, or at the least to some stable ground. If the car is not an option then a well thought out mt bike would be my other suggestion. Having a storage locker outside the area with a stash would be another option, something within a day or twos walk.

Yep, have a small BOB or EDC gear designed to help you hoof it to a storage locker. Supplies in the locker could be a bigger BOB, a bicycle or even motorcycle with panniers to carry the BOB and other supplies. This is where your financial resources aid in decision making.

One point to make though is that after the earthquake, it's time to put it all back together. You would need to bug-out before the earthquake to really take advantage of the bugging out option. However, if the object is surviving the aftermath while waiting for the government to start rebuilding, I hope you have some really good friends out of the area.

Hi Philip,

Is there anything such as a local city council allotment (gardening) scheme in operation nearby?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)

If there was such a scheme, this may be a good place to bug out to. You could also grow some of your own food and get to know others in nearby garden allotments to have a community response to a big event such as an earthquake.

There some examples of some nearby garden allotments at N56.4695 W2.9925 viewable at google earth where the land is owned by the city council and a small annual rent is payable for their use.

I agree with others’ comments: looting shouldn’t be at the top of your preparedness plan. Not because I object to helping yourself if and when it truly becomes a matter of life and death. But you unnecessarily place yourself in a dangerous environment with new variables: the looters themselves, who might decide to make you a target (“Wonder what good stuff he’s got in that bag slung over his shoulder?”), and when you resist, it goes downhill from there. Then there's LEOs and National Guard who won’t behave kindly towards looters: best case, arrest you; worst case, shoot you.

The whole premise behind “getting prepared” is to stack the cards in your favor; being in the midst of a looting frenzy “unstacks” the cards a bit, and delays your travel to a more hospitable environment.

You emphasize “I don't expect my living quarters to be standing after a big quake. I expect the unit to be collapsed.” If that premise is central to your planning, then any food included in your plan should necessarily be limited to what you can carry when you first escape the building; don’t assume you can — or will be allowed to — re-enter later.

You don’t say what your vehicle parking arrangements are. If you’ve got “tuck-under” parking, as is often the case with high-density urban condos, and your condo does “collapse,” then likely your car(s) — and your getaway motorcycle — just got "pancaked" in the garage. Meaning two things: no mechanical transportation, and any food/gear stored there would be inaccessible.

All the more reason to have a quick-to-grab BOB inside your condo, with 5-7 days of subsistence food/water, along with your other essentials (don’t forget gloves). Also, under or near the bed, consider a plastic bag or other easy-to-grab container with suitable clothing (pants, shirt, durable shoes, light jacket) to grab if the “big one” strikes while you’re sound asleep. You might not have the luxury of getting dressed until after you’re outside the building.

During 20+ years in SoCal, my earthquake bag’s food supplies weren’t fancy; designed to keep my belly (and my wife’s) full for 5-7 days. Easy-to-store; low-bulk and -weight packaging; things we ate anyway; little or no water to prepare; most, but not all, edible hot or cold: peanut butter, crackers, grain bars, almonds, Chicken-of-the-Sea albacore/tuna in individual pouches, Knorr-Lipton Pasta Sides in individual pouches, crackers-and-cheese snack packs, a couple of MREs etc. And water of course.

We carried near-identical bags in our car trunks (parking at our jobs was outside, not under cover). This gave us the added benefit, if we were at home, of having an additional stocked BOB. I should mention that despite having a three-car garage, always kept one car (my SUV) parked in the driveway to maximize the likelihood it would be driveable post-earthquake.

> If you’ve got “tuck-under” parking, as is often the case with
> high-density urban condos,

:-) You've got it.

I have gloves and a dust maks in my bail out bag, water, and stuff. I hadn't thought of trying to get a week's worth of food in it. I guess marine survival rations are the densest food. I'll add a brick or two to our BOBs.

We have a 2-car garage under the condos, no driveway. Street parking is patrolled by locals who call the cops to enforce the three-days-and-move-it ordinance, so that's mildly aggravating, but parking a car on the street does leave us an "out of the condo" place to store stuff.

Many thanks for the suggestions.

> Is there anything such as a local city council allotment (gardening)
> scheme in operation nearby?

I'm in a high-density area. Not only are there no public gardens, there are no empty lots available for gardening. This has been raised at city planning board meetings, and it gets lip-service, but the board doesn't ever have it on its agenda.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Since life is full of choices, though, I'll choose to make plans for survival even though the condo pancakes and I choose not to move. I've gotten several ideas here that are helpful.

If you do choose to go with a local rental unit (that would be easily accessed after a disaster), put a bike in the unit. It would serve as pretty good transportation if your car gets flattened. It could also serve well in carrying cargo if you puts racks and panniers on it.

> If you do end up needing to go 'shopping'leave leave a cheque. Prepare
> this cheque before you go in.

Good idea. I'd bet a list of stuff taken would suffice, with contact information. I can do that.

Although others have panicked at the thought of looting, I noticed that in New Orleans police not only provided aid and protection as people looted grocery stores for food and water, the officers defended their actions. I have no fear of being shot by the manager - we know each other by sight; if he's there, I'll make arrangements if possible (or leave if he asks). If the manager is not there, and it's been days with no end in sight, I'm comfortable that police reaction will be the same as in New Orleans. I don't recall looters being shot on sight, looters shooting each other, and so on. No hysteria there that I recall.

Katrina was very unusual, but I'm planning on a similar situation in my area if there is a major earthquake: No way out, no way in, and long term survival in doubt. If everyone is fed and watered by FEMA in a few days, no problem. But I'm planning on a worst case scenario, and shopping at the local store is in the game plan. I'm using Katrina as my scenario, and Katrina was a disaster.

One of the interesting things is our local geography. Without getting specific, I live on what is locally known as the Peninsula. For those not familiar with the area, see this tinyurl of Google maps:
http://tinyurl.com/29fluh
which shows the peninsula. I live near the middle of the peninsula between San Francisco and San Jose on the Bay side (as opposed to the Coast side). If you look at the map, you'll see lots of roads on the Bay side and white on the Coast side - mountains on the Coast side - that's where the Pacific Plate and the North Amercian Plate rub up against each other.

The San Andreas Fault is on the coast side of the peninsula (you can see a reservoir on the map where 92 crosses 280 - that's the fault), and the Hayward Fault is across the bay running through Hayward, Oakland, and neighboring towns. Depending on where the earthquake hits, there may be no two-day hike that leads to safe areas and stable ground. Again without getting specific, age and health play a relationship to what a two-day hike is.

I realize I'm throwing up hitherto unknown objections to a good idea, and I'm not trying to shoot it down - I hadn't considered hiking out, as I don't think it's possible. However, I'll reconsider. I do know that a two-day hike for you is not doable for us. This means a bigger load for more days.

A storage locker outside the area is also an idea, but I'd have to make a guess on where "outside the area" would be.

Maybe I've been too locked in on surviving in place, and I need to consider some way to get to another area. I'm drawing a blank on it inow, but I'll keep at it. Age and health play a role in bailing out. If we try to hike out and can't, where will we be stuck? Are we better off staying home? Questions that have no answers, only judgments and consequences.

That's a problem I'm all too aware of.

I have no hope of the government rebuilding - all I want is for my wife and me to survive till rescue. I want us to have food, water, and shelter until rescuers can either get us out or provide supplies while they work on bigger problems.

While some may think Katrina was a one-time event, I want to plan on it happening here as the result of an earthquake; if it doesn't happen in my life, well and good. But I'm not counting on FEMA to come get me hours after the big one hits.

By the way, my local government has excellent CERT training, and representatives of the local government have expressed the opinion that when the major quake hits, the area will never recover and be rebuilt to its current glory. I look to New Orleans and agree.

My goal is survival for a long time till rescue. Then we see how well-financed our earthquake insurance company is.

While I agree that the military will arrive at some point, I look to New Orleans for my lesson on that. I have no expectation of help from my government for days at the very best, for weeks probably.

Given my geography, I'm not convinced roads will be opened any time soon - there are only two major highways on the peninsula, and I expect them to be impassable from overpass collapse, debris, and dead cars. There is one rail line, but it, too, goes over city streets on a number of viaducts, and any earthquake may twist the rails enough to stop traffic.

Depending on what bridges drop, our best be may be the Bay.

I agree, though, that our best bet is to survive in place because that's where the aid will come. I'm considering some alternative shelter, though, as the result of another post concerning trying to hike out. I need to take into account age and health, though, and whether a shelter reachable on foot in a day or two is 'out of the area.'

The entire West Coast is prone to earthquakes in high-density areas, of course, so this is not an idle exercise only for the San Francisco Bay Area. My particular problem is being on a peninsula with only two major highways for transportation, both subject to traffic-stopping damage in an earthquake (one is a stone's throw from the San Andreas Fault for much of its length).

No businesses in this area that have cafeterias and such - but there are gas stations with snack foods, lots of cheap restaurants, and small mom and pop grocery stores, in addition to a couple of large supermarkets. The food trucks are there and on their lunch schedule for all the auto repair shops, radiator fixers, lumber yard, and other places that have a few employees. If the earthquake hits around noon, we're all in luck. If I were in Silicon Valley, I'd have my pick of companies with quality chefs and gourmet food to match. :->

No guerrilla gardening, though. This is not an area where there are vacant lots available. Land is too expensive not to have it built on.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think about using a car as my survival shelter. We've got water and Mainstay (I think) marine survival rations in our trunks, but if the quake hits at night, they'll be in the garage, so I'll think about street parking.

I'll give a lot more thought on storage rental. The problem in my area is that land is so expensive there is only one I know of in the area, and it's under an aerial cloverleaf freeway interchange. I'll have to look into this further and see what's in walking distance, if anything.

Now we have a better handle on where you are located and the damage that would be done if San Andreas let go. What time of day will the Big One hit? If you expect your building to immediately collapse the issue is really academic, you will be part of the building. However, if you are home, you need to get out quickly. I would maintain a large kit (clothes, food, cooking supplies (campstove), water and water purification/filters, hygiene et al) in my car or cars, and at the first rumble get that car or cars to the street, you and it might survive.

If you dress and grab a bag the delay may hurt your chances. How long does it take to get from your condo, into your car and onto the street? A lot of buildings will remain standing but will be totally unsafe to reenter.

When I lived in a condo I always backed in because it was easier/safer than backing out -- getting out was faster too. You need to be able to get your car to the street with minimum delay.

If you are out and about (work, movie, whatever) and you take your car, the kit is with you should the Big One strike.

I'm curious as to why you think none of the buildings around you are going to be standing after an earthquake. Even in (or especially in) extreme active seismic zones of California, I don't think the buildings just collapse into rubble, most, if not all of the buildings have to meet minimum safety codes. Sure, they might not be a safe to live in afterwards, but I don't ever recall seeing a residence completely demolished from a single earthquake. I just say that because that kind of thinking severely limits your possibilities, and could be dangerous if you've already written off the possibility of storing stuff inside your condo. If everything does collapse, why would you even bother to shelter in place?

One upside to earthquakes (if there is an upside), is that even if your building is severly damaged, there's still a good chance that at least some of the stuff is recoverable. It might be crushed, it might be dirty, but at least it's not contaminated by flood or strewn all about by a tornado.

Carrying a weeks worth of food and water is probably not possible. Hitting the local markets, I dunno about that. Being around a bunch of desparate people fighting for food and water, right after a major catastrophe isn't the first place I'd want to be. I'm not even going to get into the fact that taking stuff from a market is stealing, plain and simple. But I won't push it any further except to say, how would you feel if while you were out looting, someone passes by your place or car and decides to take what little supplies you have left?

If you're really convinced that nothign around you will be standing, the only option is to find a place within walking distance (since there won't be any roads), but far enough away and stable enough to still be standing after the Big One. Maybe a friends basement?

EDIT: Now that I know where you're located, it's easier to see the situation. Anything short of SF breaking off and sinking into the sea, there should still be ways of exiting. Freeways might be down, but there are plenty of roads and other paths out. This is one situation where I think a bike might come in handy.

Good point. Everybody is the neighborhood will be competing for limited food resources. There's what, one day's supply on the shelves? Raiding stores could be a dangerous undertaking.

I also agree that the buildings probably won't all pancake together. The foundation may start to give and the building may start to lean, but until the authorities come around and actually condemn the condo, it should continue to provide shelter.

Have multiple kits. Inside the condo, in your cars and in your storage unit. They won't all be destroyed.

See this reporter's video during a looting of a big box store:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/31299/should_hurricane_katrina_looters_be_tolerated/
Did I miss the prosecution of those two cops with the shopping cart? :-> Maybe I did. I know many Katrina victims were prosecuted, but it was for stealing liquor in one case I have read about. I may have missed all those prosecutions for taking food, water, and clothing.

According to this story
http://www.terradaily.com/news/hurricane-05ze.html
people got together and shared information on where necessities were located. "We looted a store because we had no food and we had to do something," is one quote. Assure me that if you have no food and no prospects for food other than looting it from a store that you won't loot.

Comparing the King riots with Katrina is extravagantly lacking in conformity with the facts, in my very humble opinion.

Yes, I've followed the Katrina incident and the following aftermath very carefully, even to this day. I've watched all the videos, read all the newpaper reports, even firsthand accounts. Still doesn't change my mind. Stealing is stealing. Doesn't matter if the cops are doing it, doesn't matter if everyone is doing it, it doesn't matter if you're not caught. You're still a thief, and what's worse, you're taking advantage of a natual disaster when people are their must vulnerable to do it.

Are you too poor right now to buy food and water? Not having a place to store it isn't much of an excuse. A couple cases of water and some canned food doesn't take that much room. What you're saying is, you don't want to spare the room, you want the market to store it for you indefinitely, but you don't want to pay them for it ahead of time, in fact, you want it for free if you ever need it. I wouldn't care if I recognized you, or if i knew your name, if that was my market you wouldn't be getting anything.

You can say I wouldn't understand, but I've lived in the bay area, so I'm very familiar with your situation. Space is tight, but not that tight where you have absolutely no room for essentials. I just don't agree with your mentatility that you have a right to take what you need in an emergency, when you have every opportunity to prepare beforehand. Of course, these discussions always turn into pissing matches on whether or not you would do what was necessary to help your family survive. I would do everything I could BEFORE a disaster to make sure I have the best chances of making it through, not wait until afterwards to steal from other people who are in similar situations. Do you aspire to be one of those people you saw on TV during Katrina?

It seems that you are faced with a "come as you are" survival situation. You will only have your EDC, so that's the first place to start. If you haven't studied Schwert's planning for a similar earthquake situation, a good place to start is at
http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=171
There is alot there, and may take several readings.

RAS also makes a good point:



Planning on anything that can be later viewed as looting is not really planning. The point, I think, is to plan to avoid that necessity.

Just my thoughts.

Dog show person, Susan? Me? I'm allergic to most dogs; most of them are allergic of me to, so I don't hold a grudge on that.

I'm just a bachelor who thinks that Conterra boxes and lawn furniture looks tacky if you don't do something about it. :P

Sorry, Ironraven, I should have been more specific!

I meant Philip wasn't a dog show person, or he would already know how to hide "containers". Your post was a variant on what dog show people do: Put it in place, fill it up with stuff, cover it up, set a lamp and some books on it. Voila! It's now furniture!

Sue

You don't expect to be able to get INTO the house... do you expect to be able to get OUT of the house?

When the measly 6.8 Nisqually quake hit the Olympia, WA (2001) area (35-40 mi from me), I was having trouble walking through the house toward the door.

I'll bet not too many people in the whopper 9.2 Anchorage quake (1964) were doing anything but holding on to anything they could grab. It also produced a 70-ft tsunami (Belmont, CA has an elevation of 33 ft, although the east side of the Bay would get the major damage, although it would be interesting to see what kind of backwash the west side would get), and vertical land displacements of up to 38 ft.

Have you ever thought of relocating out of the Bay area?

If your storage space is where you live, and most people spend about half their day there, you've probably got close to a 50/50 chance of being there when the Big One hits. And if you are there, you'll probably be in roughly the same condition as your stuff: Mangled beyond recognition, which makes everything else moot; or you'll just have some injuries and so will your stored items. But your place might still be standing, in which case you'll be in clover. And at the mercy of the rest of your looter buds.

Unless you're in Foster City or one of the other cities built on fill. Then you'll just be part of the Bay debris.

But disasters can be really freaky, and there's just no way you can predict how the cards or buildings are going to fall. An east-west movement may just make it sway, a north-south shake could rip it in half and tear it down.

If you can't move away, I would collect food and water and camping gear and hope for the best. Sitting in a slightly crooked building with a lousy broken ankle and supplies really beats trying to be a crippled looter pushing a stolen walker. Trust me on this, okay?

You know what the folks here say: Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. And if the worst happens and you croak, you can take peace in the knowledge that some determined looters will probably get at least SOME of the stuff you stored.

Sue

Picking up on where Susan left off, let's assume it hits and your building somehow survives with you and your stuff in it (we won't discuss it collapsing with you and your stuff in it, that would be pointless). You bring the supplies from your car kits up to your condo and then wait, listening to the news on your radio. Days go by and you're doing fine. Then the looting starts.

When the serious looters get to your condo and the supermarket shelves have been stripped, how will you stop them from taking your stuff? Even if you have a solid door, one good kick and that's not a problem for a looter. Breaking stuff? Look around, everything is broken. Police? Not today even if you could call 9-1-1. You are on your own for protecting yourselves and your stuff. It's not just stuff is it; these are your survival supplies and you can't get more, not today and probably not next week/month. Without them you won't have anything to eat.

Can you use a shotgun? Do you have one? Is that even an option?

I'm in SOCAL and while we don't live on one of the faults, they're all around us. The house might be standing, but Ralph's won't be getting any deliveries anytime soon following the Big One. I've got a shotgun, more than one.

Step one would be buy better locks. I police lock with a diagonal support down to the floor or the "castle" style with a beam across the door will keep anyone without an axe from breaking down the door (including someone with a sledge hammer). I'd also install a serious strike plate with three inch carpentry screws and a solid dead bolt on your primary lock. With a solid door and high quality locks you can keep some one from kicking your door in.

We've had several tsunami alerts, and the newscasters quote someone as saying that tsunamis will devastate the coast but that the Golden Gate will prevent them from entering the bay. How this is so is never explained. shrug - I'll just take the experts' word for it, I guess.

Still, it causes me concern that my fresh water stream will be backflooded with sea water, even if it doesn't reach our condos, so we have several 2.5 gallon boxes of water in our garage.


Which is the point of my question: if my building fails entirely (or more likely is burned to the ground in the inevitable fires that follow quakes), how do I store stuff when I have no yard. So far, the best answer is to park a car on the street and use it for off site storage that is more or less readily available. Getting it out of the way of a fire is more of a problem.

:-> No, only one. The best comment to his article is "What a freakin geek." I was thinking the same thing as I looked at his pictures and read about him having his wool vest custom made for him and that he wears it year-round. What a freaking geek.

By the way, I notice he says, 'With the home improvement store right next door to my worksite, I think it is likely that should we have to construct temporary shelter we could “source” tarps, lumber, rope and tools, but having a small highly effective set of these tools is one of my kit requirements.'

What is it you think he means by "sourcing" tarps?

The complete freakin geek quote is,



Schwert's "On-Body Kit" article doesn't address my needs, fortunately.

Your comment:

Hence, my question: What do other people who live in urban areas with no storage space do? [edit: Are we back to Schwert "sourcing" tarps, lumber, and stuff?]

So far, the best idea seems to be storing stuff in a car outside. Which you thoughtfully repost.


Yeah, thanks.

It'll take too long because all the parking is under the condos in a closed garage. It's three flights down, through a locked door, then the garage door has to open.

I'll start trying parking on the street, and see how long I can maintain my interest in having to move the car every three days in accordance with municipal ordinances (at least one neighbor takes it on him/herself to call in cars parked too long).


Luke! Use the kit! :->

Most don't do anything because they know it won't happen while they live there, only after they leave.

Kinda like me in SOCAL. I am well prepared to bug-in or hang with friends near where I work, but I'd rather be many places other than SOCAL or anywhere in CA when the Big One hits. . . maybe next year :rolleyes: For now my major kit is in my truck; there's much more food, water and fuel at home and if that's still standing I'm in great shape, but I need to be there. If I'm anywhere else I can bug in place until it's time to move on (walking or driving).

I'll let that comment stand on its own.

Yep, and by the time you get there the power will have shut down and the door won't open.

Make up a BOB or Go-Bag (whatever you want to call it) and have a set of work clothes (HD outerwear, boots and gloves) in another bag you can grab and go. Change into the work clothes in a safer location. Watch out for broken glass.

Philip,

What is the general layout of your condo? Are there other condos above/below it or is it more of a townhouse/brownstone style? How big is your garage? Can you access the roof of your condo? Can others access your roof? When was it built and what were the building codes then? What is it made of?

With that information we should be able to figure out where stuff might be accessible if the condo collapses.

The Triangle of Life has been discredited for saving lives, but it might help you save some gear...

-Blast

Okay, so it looks like my best option is to use a car to store stuff in and to park it on the street instead of in the garage under the condos.

Enough people have suggested off-site rental that I'll look further into that. My initial impression is that there are no self-storage units within reach, but I'll confirm that and reconsider based on location and possible survivabililty. (I'm aware, for example, of a former moving and storage building that's been converted to self-storge, but it's in a three- or four-story building of unreinforced masonry. It's within a long walk, but that building won't be standing.)

On suggestions to hike out, that's another idea I'd discounted but that I'll reconsider. We're on a peninsula, so we're limited to hiking from mid-peninsula towards San Jose. It may be that it's not possible to hike out, given the geographical constraints along with the issues of health and age. A two-day hike for a twenty-something man in an area where the safer destinations could be anywhere in 360 degrees is not going to be a two-day hike for my wife and me, and the only safer destination is south, where it may be no safer there than here. But it still should be on the agenda as a consideration, because we have no clue where the area of destruction will lie, especially if a local fire causes more destruction than the quake itself. (Or that dreaded tsunami washes into the bay against the advice of all those experts.)

It was interesting to note that most of the suggestions were self-referential: people said what they would do in their area at their age and in their health. I didn't even think about my constraints when I stated my problem and asked for suggestions, and it was educational to see how people answered. Fine-tuning what my situation was resulted in several fine-tuned answers, which I appreciate. (My question was just as self-referential, of course - I assumed my area, my age, and my health would be taken into account.)

Many thanks for the time and thought you've all put in - I do have a good answer, and I have good reason to re-think a couple of areas I'd discounted.

It seems to me that you didn’t really think much about Schwert’s article. The main purpose of Schwert’s article was to show the structure of how a full survival kit is assembled, i.e. the redundancy of on-body, carry bag, car, work, home, and friend/relative/out-of-area location kits.

The fact of the matter is this: there is no single solution to this question. There is no magic answer that will solve all of the problems, just like there is no magic kit that will solve all of your problems.

The things you can do to prepare for an earthquake are the same things that everyone else can do to prepare for an earthquake. All of them have already been suggested here: have a properly equipped go-bag next to your bed, have a properly equipped car kit (you might wanna think about a work kit, too), carry decent EDC gear, get a public storage space, and find a friend or relative that lives out of the area.

These suggestions are meant to be collective together to increase your chances no matter what happens. There are too many variables for this to be a simple solution, therefore some sort of redundancy is necessary.

You cannot rely solely on the car kit because you cannot guarantee your car will be available after an earthquake. You cannot solely rely on stuff stored in your condo because you cannot guarantee that your condo will be available (or standing) after an earthquake. After those two are exhausted, it goes to the public storage space, then to the friend’s or relative’s place.

If you want to start looting after the disaster, that’s up to you. The good and the bad is a debate for another thread. Personally, I’d like to have enough stashes of stuff located in various places to know that I wouldn’t have to loot to survive. That’s what planning is. Planning to loot is no plan at all.

The decision to park your car on the street sounds like a feasible one. Having to move your car at least every three days doesn’t sound like much of an inconvenience, and it will give your car kit a greater chance of survival.

If you think there are no public storage places in your neighborhood, then you might want to look harder or expand your perception of what your neighborhood is. There may not be one 500 feet from your condo, but I can almost guarantee you that there is one within 5 or 10 miles. It may not be the perfect storage place, either, giving you 24-hour access and a fault-tolerant access system, but something is better than nothing. If you’re wondering how you would transport goods, a bicycle with racks and/or a folding cart could be used. You can store them at the condo, at the storage place, or one at each.

Remember, the goal isn’t to give yourself a solution, because there really isn’t one. It is to give yourself options.

P.S.: Forgot to add this originally… If you are really that concerned about the structural integrity of your condo, the best (and most complex, definitely) preparation you could make is to move. Move to a regular stick-built house, or move to an area that doesn’t have earthquakes. Of course, none of the above kits and storage spaces can be done in a day, and neither can moving.

P.P.S: Additionally, taking a look at your home and attempting to mitigate any risks of falling furniture and so forth is something you can to today (or tomorrow), and could greatly increase your chances of getting out of the condo alive before it does collapse.

It's the rotation that's the problem for me. It's easy enough to stash food in little obscure hidey-holes, but if I am to "store what I eat, and eat what I store" then it needs to be accessible so I can do that. I currently store 3 times as much tinned sweet corn as tinned carrots, because the corn comes in plastic-wrapped packs of 3 tins so it's easier to move around and stack. The carrots are individual tins; if I stack them it becomes to hard to get at the bottom tins, and I need to do that whenever I buy new.

Put the bed up on risers or blocks to increase under bed storage. Do you have a balcony? Gear wrapped in tarps can become plant stands on the balcony. Gear and supplies and be stored under hanging clothes in closets. Utilize all the cabinets in your kitchen and bath, most people have room in there. Move the couch out 6" from the wall - great place for storage of thin containered items.

> have a set of work clothes (HD outerwear, boots and gloves)

Yeah, another set of clothes is on my list. I'll do that today, in fact.

"...tsunamis will devastate the coast but that the Golden Gate will prevent them from entering the bay."

I'm snickering here. The Golden Gate is 746 ft above the water, and it's held up by two posts, which are near each end. And what's THAT going to stop or even slow down??? A tsunami entering straight in wouldn't even notice it.

I've lived in Quake Country all my life. One thing I always think about when I think of earthquakes is fires. First, the earthquake hits, severing lots of gas lines. Then all the scared smokers in the area light up to calm their nerves. Funny, huh?

Your situation is worse than practically anything I can imagine:

1) You have no open areas, not even a place to stand that would be free of falling & flying debris, much less pitch a tent.
2) Fire following broken gas mains is probable.
3) Incredibly heavy population density, about 16,000 per sq mile.
4) A lot of the areas on the Bay side are built on fill, which would turn into quicksand in a bad jolt.
5) You're barely above sea level. Vertical land shift up, okay. Major vertical land shift DOWN, you're part of the seabed.
6) There's no real way out. A lot of I-280 and 101 is elevated... for now. Escape on foot, climbing over miles upon miles of debris with other survivors of the, what? 6 million people headed south? You've got what they want? Too bad, you can't protect your head or your back. Fall and break your leg? Ooops.
7) Like you said, there's only one way to go, south. If you get there, you're in Silicon Valley/San Jose, the third-largest city in CA, with another two million people who are in almost as bad a shape as you. Probably no power, no road access for supplies, contaminated water if you can find any, food has disappeared.

Of course, you might luck out and a tsunami would put out the fires.

Sue

> The Golden Gate is 746 ft above the water, and it's held up by two posts,
> which are near each end.

No, sorry - that's the _bridge_. The bridge is across the Golden Gate, named hundreds of years before they built the bridge.

I think Susan's point is that if the Big One happens, a lot of buildings will collapse, many into the bay and then you're going to have widespread fires in a high population density area with no way out and no relief. Sounds like a lot of people are going to die: some quickly by being crushed, others from fire and smoke inhalation, and still others will die at the hands of their fellow survivors competing for food and water during the walk south. Whether or not a tsunami gets through the Golden Gate is almost moot -- just devastation on top of destruction.

One of the first things I learned about surviving bad situations was to be somewhere else, but you dismissed that option early in this discussion. I'm glad I've chosen to live elsewhere.

Another option would be to walk west over the hills to the coast and then south, before the fires get bad. At least the population density and the smoke from the fires won't be so bad; the higher elevation could keep you out of the tsunami's reach. You might have trouble with the San Andreas chasm, but after that it should be easier.

Do you hike those hills? If you don't, it might be a good idea to start, it looks very scenic on Google Earth. There are small roads that cross with no buildings to collapse. Four or five hours and you'll be on the beach, assuming it hasn't moved. That's where I'd look for a storage unit (This would be a major kit to include a small off-road motorcycle or at least a mountain bike (bicycle).)

My agenda is to attach bachelor buttons on all my pants including blue jeans (suspenders can easily be improvised) because I will be loosing a lot of weight and my belt may not fit anymore.

I suggest you carry a GI type of can opener (p38 or p51) in your wallet or keychain and you will not look as silly as Christian Bale in "Empire of the Sun" or Adrien Brody in "The Pianist" when you find canned goods while rummaging for food.

While can-openers make the job much easier, you can always open a can with a knife. I used to use a Buck fixed blade (I don't remember which model) to open cans before I ever went out and got a can opener. It wasn't as fast, and nowhere near as safe, but it did work!

Dave

SAK can openers available on many models work much easier and leave a relatively clean lip.

Yup, and there is (almost) always a can opener on all the multi-tools that I have seen...

I've also used a knife to open cans before. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it.

I like my lip left relatively clean, of course.

I haven't seen either movie Frankie refers to, but if the script called for our hero not to know how to open a can or to be unable to find a tool to do so, I'll accept it as a plot device for some comedy relief.

I'm just curious, but does your city have a plan to set up at least one shelter/relief site somewhere in the city limits? Like a baseball field, city hall parking lot, etc? Seems like that kind of info would be part of any city-run CERT curriculum.

Also, as Katrina demonstrated, often it is the private groups like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, local churches, or even private citizens that get relief centers set up first or in places without "official" relief centers. Obviously, you'll need to hold out for a time before any of these centers can be fully up and running, but I would suspect that help will be a lot closer than hoofing it all the way to San Jose. But these groups won't be there for long, though, so you'll still need to think about what to do "after".

. . .unless you become a member of one of those private groups and become part of the relief effort. You may also become privy to additional information that may help in your personal plans.

Louise and I are in a couple of groups with the purpose of providing relief. On a practical level, though, if the disaster wipes out our town, we're all victims and nobody's a reliever. One of our friends is in the Red Cross, and he's flown to all parts of the country after a disaster because nobody _in_ the disaster, Red Cross, Salvation Army, whatever, can provide help to the community because they're all victims themselves.

Yes, our town has a disaster plan, yes, the town has ideas on where to set up shelters, and no, I don't expect the town to deliver. I look to New Orleans for my expectations of help from the government at whatever level. If my town is hit by a quake of Katrina proportions, I expect no help.

I think I mentioned in another post on this thread that my town officials have said they don't expect the town to be rebuilt to its current condition if it's wiped out in an earthquake. I look at New Orleans, and I believe _that_.

Yes, we all have plans - the government, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, our CERT teams, my neighbors. If the quake is not so severe that the plans are completely impossible to put into effect, well and good. But the possibililty is that the devastation will be Katrina-like and all the plans will be in the shambles that was my town.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that long-term survival is a worst case scenario. If it's not a Katrina-like quake, I'm a happy camper with plans, supplies, and ham radios to join in the rescue/reporting/communications efforts. My goal is to game plan the worst case, and I've gotten a lot of good information; I've put some of the ideas into effect.

> privy to additional information that may help in your personal plans.

My wife and I were at a meeting where our county's emergency services coordinator gave a presentation on what the county's plans were in the event of a devastating earthquake. They're detailed and involve providing defined amounts of supplies to the population using defined locations and routes. The government _has_ a plan. Then he asked, "The question is, do you trust your government?" That's the additional information I'm privy to in making my personal plans.

The government is made of people and some of them will be like the NOLA bus driver who evacuated and weren't available to drive a bus to evacuate others. Hence, a yard full of empty flooded buses.

In an earthquake, no one will be evacuating until after the earthquake, so those government people will still be in place. Hopefully they'll go to work.

A comic character called "Hungry Horace" had recurring nightmares of being marooned on a desert island, a crate washing up on the shore, and it being full of tinned food he was unable to open. A psychiatrist suggested he go to sleep holding a tin-opener: this should fix the object in his mind and he'd have it with him in his dream. It worked, after a fashion. In his dream he was sitting on the shore of his desert island, tin-opener in hand, eagerly waiting for the crate to appear. But this time the crate was full of tin-openers.

"...this time the crate was full of tin-openers..."

Now that is a real bummer!!!

Excellent points JCW. You may be one of the very few people who actually did grasp my point with the article....

Everyone's situtation, capabilites, and scenarios are very different and any planning or kit must be tuned to those parameters.

If I lived down there in a sure-to-collapse condo, the very first thing I would do is move....then worry about all the other things.

As to sourcing tarps and building materials from the home center next door, I was not advocating looting. With 1000's of our employees standing in the parking lot, combined with 100's from the surrounding businesses, I am quite certain that the home center would do everything possible to assist with tarps, wood, water and any other items that could safely be moved out of the store or outside storage areas. I WAS NOT advocating armed looting on the store....that is just stupid.

My approach to scattering multiple redundant kits about, coupled with a daily wear kit is an approach that works for me in my situations. What would work in SF is likely a derivative.

Another suggestion is to join a local volunteer emergency group. When the condo hits the dirt, report for duty to assist others. You end up serving the community, have shelter, food, water and communications. This is one of my approachs, serving as a ham operator at the local EOC.

I think that we need to define a couple of points here:
1) If your securing food, water, medical supplies, shelter etc then you are foraging.

2) If your taking alcohol, tobacco, TVs etc then you are looting.

I have the advantage over many of you in so far as I live in the U.K. Which is somewhat more tectonically active than many people appreciate.

In the U.K. you have a defence in law under certain circumstances that you where compelled to engage in an unlawful act in order to preserve life or limb. Depending on circumstance it is either a partial defence or an absolute one.

I would be interested to know what American state and federal law is on the matter.

I'm not sure about our laws here in the US, but allow me to pose a situation which might offer food for thought to those who live in urban environments, as well as those of us in the country.

I have several acres of land as well as the knowledge and experience to produce my own food. The situation is this: When food runs out in the city, individuals as well as groups of people will start looking to the country for sustenance.

While I'm willing to share as far as possible, I'm not going to allow myself to be deprived of what my family and I need to survive.

How far would I be willing to go in order to preserve my crops, food stores, live stock, equipment, etc?

When folks are forced to depend on their own means to survive, the situation will undoubtedly be some form of national or world-wide crisis (re...nuclear war as in Mad Max). Will there even be duly instituted law enforcement agencies protecting us from the ever-increasing lawlessness that is bound to rear it's ugly head?

Interesting thought, isn't it???

Leigh,

As the common law applies in most US states, the defense is available here also. But our 50 states and many local jurisdictions make any results from the same set of facts a real gamble. It is going to be a hard thing to prove. Here in the US you never know when some local prosecutor is going to decide to "make an example" of someone. There really is not much, if any Federal Law in this area that I am aware of, as these types of "crimes" are usually in the arena of local law. The Federal Court would (usually) if necessary, look to the law of the local jurisdiction, say Anne Arundel County, Maryland, in my case.

A good quick review of the theory of necessity is available at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity

Off the thread question, though, if it is proper: Two of the current threads have revealed 1) A 20 foot lethal range for a knife attack and 2) some, uh, strong, anti-EDC knife laws in the UK. Given that your police are unarmed, are #1 and #2 related?

Thanks,

--bws48