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#102549 - 08/14/07 02:51 PM Re: Range Safety [Re: Russ]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Fortunately, the yelling was short, and was NOT related to the discharge. It was rather cool, actually.

He sights...he pauses....he starts to put the gun down with his finger still on the trigger...as he goes to lay the gun on the table...

BANG!

ME: "OK, you're done for the day, let's pack up." (I take the gun, clear it, check chamber, check it again)

HIM: "But DAD it was a mistake!"

ME: "I know, but you were not in control of your weapon, and you just had an accidental discharge - that's not acceptable"

HIM: "BUT THE TRIGGER DIDN'T WORK. IT WAS A MISTAKE!!! PLEASE CAN I TRY AGAIN!!"

ME: "Obviously, the trigger worked fine, as you shot the gun as you put it down. You know to keep off the trigger unless you're about to fire. We're done now."

THEN the hysterics started, and only then did I yell something to the effect of "YOU KNOW THE RULES HERE, AND YOU BROKE THEM. YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING AGAIN TONIGHT!"

So, while the discharge WAS downrange, on a "Hot" range, and the round definitely hit the berm (I saw it hit), it was a clearly my job to halt things at that point. He was truly sorry, he really did think it was a gun malfunction, I think he expected the trigger pull to be as light as his BB gun. We did "dry fire" with snap caps before going to live rounds, but still he's learning.


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#102711 - 08/16/07 12:27 AM Re: Range Safety [Re: JohnnyUpton]
CJK Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 601
Loc: FL, USA
As an NRA certified Firearms Instructor (Home firearms safety, Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun Disciplines) and having instructed a lot of courses, I can see the event rather clearly.......Assuming that there wasn't an actual 'problem' with the firearm.....then I don't see a problem with how it 'went down'....nice job Martin. Whenever we had a class, we made certain that while yes it was a 'learning experience'...it was also expected that there were certain things that were absolutely not to going to be tolerated. Looking back it seems that we too had a type of 'star' system....nothing in clear print but all the instructors were very aware of it.

We used all situations as instruction......some of them were 'unforgivable' in that the person who committed them were off the range instantly. Turning around with a firearm for example......let me tell you something.....you will be amazed at how fast you really can move......(it had also happened after a misfire!) IIRC he was saying something about, "Hey guys...this just went 'click'," while he spun around......

Anyway.....I think it was handled very well......

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#102856 - 08/17/07 07:40 PM Re: Range Safety [Re: Russ]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: RAS
My only comment is to not raise your voice, don't yell. I may be off-base here, but to me it implies anger and loss of control. When dealing with firearms I prefer to stay cold.

Muzzle discipline and trigger fingers are my main issues. A shooter should always know where the gun is pointed, loaded or unloaded. You never sweep a friendly (defined as anything you don't want to shoot).

The trigger finger only needs to contact the trigger when you have made the decision to fire. Once you decide to not fire or there's an issue you need to discuss with the RO (or Dad), the first thing that happens is the finger comes off the trigger and the safety is engaged. You might want to raise that finger to make the point of where it's not. Then you talk to Dad.

Whatever, I'm not an RO, just a shooter who's never (at least not yet) had an ND or an AD. Just tossing in my $.02 cool



I agree. One thing that you do not want to do is make him so nervious that he makes mistakes out of fear. What you are trying to teach him is self dicipline. The sort that comes from the desire to do it right. First time, every time. One also wonders if part of your reaction was fear of what could have happened. If it was I don't blame you. I would have felt exactly the same. One wonders if he is still too young for anything above a pellet gun? My personal view is that under 13 they are children. Over that we are moving into young adulthood.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#102922 - 08/18/07 07:30 PM Re: Range Safety [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
When I first began training kids to shoot, I faced an incident where one of the students had a question about the operation of the firearm he was working with, and turned to me with the gun in his hand, his finger on the trigger, the muzzle pointing at my kneecap, a round in the chamber. I was able to grab the muzzle and turn the gun away and up so no one else was muzzled, taking the chance that the move wouldn't cause the lad to squeeze the trigger on me before the muzzle cleared me. Once clear, I told him to let go of the firearm and step off the firing line, in a not too subtle voice. I unloaded the gun and then took the kid back to behind the staging area where I lit into him some about not listening to what he'd been told and not taking the training seriously. He was shaken, but I didn't get into him so much that he broke down. I wanted to make sure that if he ever picked up a gun again, he was a lot more careful about it. For that session, he was done.

Sometimes you have to be assertive about the correction in order to leave a suitable impression. It is the nature of who we are. Taking the kid off the firing line for the day gives him some time to reflect more objectively about what happened and let the discipline sink in more, so that the next time he goes shooting, he is more prepared mentally and more aware and focused on what he is doing, and also more understanding of some of the consequences of screwing up.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#102925 - 08/18/07 08:41 PM Re: Range Safety [Re: benjammin]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
I recall a time last summer when one of my guys (not my son, but, one of the other 20 I own for a week in the troop at summer camp) was trying to clear a misfire on his own, even though the range rules at Scout camp were that the rifle MB instructor clears misfires. At one point, he had the gun perpendicular to the line of shooting tables on the range apparently, yikes. I didn't see it, but, others told me he was chewed out pretty severely, as he should be, which is how most infractions on the range were handled. (Gotta get the severity of the issue into those little skulls full of mush.) He was done for the day, and told to not return to class tomorrow without his Scoutmaster (that would be me). We had a long talk about safety before we went back, and his dad, who's also a volunteer with the troop, shared some of his "thoughts" with his son that night. (His thoughts were rather, ah, heated, but it was his dad).
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- Ron

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#103488 - 08/25/07 03:09 AM Re: Range Safety [Re: Be_Prepared]
drahthaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 111
IMHO, any of the "violations" you mention would merit at least an end to shooting for the day - even the "1 star" ones. For example, failing to check for an empty chamber could result in leaving a loaded rifle on the line pointed downrange (presumably) where people are walking around.

Maybe that is too harsh.

One other thing you might want to think about doing - if you haven't already - is to set up drills re what to do. Practice shooting a few rounds, making sure the action is clear, making sure the range is clear, walk and reset the targest, walk back, etc. in short sessions where you do nothing but watch and don't really shoot any yourself so your attention isn't divided. Once you do the drill a few dozen times, the good habits will be come instinct. Same thing with drilling re what to do with misfires.

One thing my dad did with me was to load the gun and then hand it to me. Every now and then he would load a snap cap instead of a live round. That would do two things: demonstrate if I was flinching on trigger pull and also provide practice for how to properly clear "duds".

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#103502 - 08/25/07 07:57 AM Re: Range Safety [Re: drahthaar]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
I too try to stay away from the range for a couple of months before deer season, except for one private range I belong to - at that range, even on the busiest day, your likely to be one of only 2-3 people on the range


That said - How many of you have ever worked with what is called a "Hot range" system? I have - very different than the way most ranges are run, and kinda interesting...

The idea there is that during hunting, military carry, or CCW etc - you WILL be carrying a LIVE rifle/pistol etc. Instead of firing your set, and racking a empty rifle/pistol before going downrange - you reload your pistol, and put it in it's holster. You LOAD your rifle, put it on safe, etc - and when you go down range, you bring it with you - simulating what you are going to do in the field - be it port arms carry, sling carry, etc.

Obviously, this is a MUCH more advanced way to carry, but it give folks the practice of - how am I going to handle a live firearm when I'm in the woods
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#103539 - 08/25/07 04:56 PM Re: Range Safety [Re: KG2V]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
When we qualify (every quarter), the range is "hot". The only time it is cold is after the last stage at the 25yd line and a new set of shooters are entering the range. They're loaded and holstered... the set that just qualified is empty and holstered.

There is no loading or handling of firearms while any person is downrange (except by the ones downrange, of course).

Before departing the range after qualifications, any shooter may go downrange at the 3yd line, unholster, and charge their weapon. In fact, all agents are reminded to do so to avoid leaving the range empty and forgetting that.
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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