I read a post about the RESQME tool. What other tools regarding a window punch and seatbelt cover do you EDC? Is the ResQMe 'top of the line'? I really like the compact design. I think it looks great. But would like to do my 'homework' before purchasing one.

I can punch out a window and cut a seatbelt with my Leatherman, and I ALWAYS have it with me...

The Resqume tool is nice, but I carry a simpler setup both EDC in the car and in my auto extrication tool kit.

The belt cutter I carry looks like this: [img]http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-45546376600832_1957_50192498[/img]

The window breaker I use is one of these:
http://www.allhandsfire.com/page/AHF/PROD/emttoolsknivesandcutters/EMI-1076

I've also used, on-scene, one of these:
http://www.allhandsfire.com/page/AHF/PROD/emttoolsknivesandcutters/EMI-9000

and I prefer the spring-loaded window breakers.

Punching the window and cutting the belt are the least of your problems. Maintaining your cool thought processes after the shock of that violent water entry is a major issue. Then you need to open and exit through the right door/window. In a situation where you're in a deep river, who's to say the car is upright? The car may roll on its side so you may need to follow the air and break the glass that's up. Maintain your up orientation, follow the air bubbles. Lots of stuff in the water.

All true.

Most vehicles go into the water thanks to driver input. Best way to stay out of the water is to practice good defensive driving. I know of a highway patrolman who put his patrol vehicle into water thanks to driving too fast for conditions, he shot out a window while upside down under water in order to get out.

Being on a bridge that drops like a rock 60 feet or so is an adventure I hope to never experience. I would imagine that, even in the unlikely event you were uninjured, you would be very very disoriented...

It is a good tool, combining a window punch and seatbelt cutter into a small handy package. But the real key is to practice with it a few times. Breaking a car window is a bit harder than it seems. Also, remember that you won't be able to break out the front, and probably not the rear, window. They are for side windows only.

Jeff

We have a LifeHammer and prybar in our car, as well as a S&W first-response knife, so I guess we're covered..

Keep in mind that with a violent water entry, things may not be where you expect them to be. I keep all my emergency gear in my truck console. I have a pry bar behind my seat but in a situation like this finding it may be a challenge. I really like the spring loaded punch Martin pointed us to. It doesn't require an arm swing in a restricted space.

The Res-Q-Me is what I carry.

http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=66

I can't stress enough - IMPACT TOOLS WON'T WORK ON FRONT AND REAR WINDOWS - and in some cars, they won't work on side windows. Follow the bubbles and try to open the door. You may need to wait for the water to rise before you can open the door. If you blow out a window while under waters, several tons of water are going to slam into you at once.
It's a low rate of survival situation, in all cases.

I forgot about that. My wife's car one of the selling points was safety grass in the side windows (as well as the front).
However I thought that back windows were not, both from having my own shot out with a pellet gun and that mythbusters episode where they tried to put pressure on the back window while shooting it with a pellet gun.
Even if you manage to survive the impact with the water but hitting at a low enough speed to not pop the air bags or bend the center of the car then you still have to be alert enough to either cut or unlatch the seatbelt, wait and unlock the doors then open them. A lot of room for error when stressed.

I can't even find these things locally..any type of seat belt cutter. As cheap as some of them are, one would think Wally World or other would carry them.

With respect, I've been on several calls where the keys to a vehicle aren't in the ignition. It seems that if people are wanting to carry this sort of tool, it should be in a more secure location than the key chain. Alternatively, have a second tool in a separate location.

I recently bought a benchmade ERT 1. It has a seat belt cutter and a window punch and a light. Comes in a nice belt pouch, so used some para cord to tie it to the seat belt and anchor point in the floor. Seems to be well made and was 29.99 at the local gun shop.

Note that AFAIK, "safety glass" is not a specific enough term. My understanding is that could mean either laminated glass (like the front), or tempered glass (the kind that breaks into lots of little pieces).

Laminated glass would be the one to ruin your day if submerged.

-john

I did find a resqme at Brookstones locally. The website and packaging states it will break the side and back windows.

I think what Martinfocazio meant is that if the side windows used laminated glass, it wouldn't work. Most cars don't use laminated glass on the side windows, but must use it on the front window.

I think he is also suggesting that some cars may use laminated glass on the side windows and thus it wouldn't work in that case.

If indeed some cars use laminated glass on side windows, the product website would be wrong to make the statement without some sort of disclaimer.

Either way, it probably makes sense to determine what kind of glass in the side windows for your own vehicle.

-john

I've got a Hinderer Rescue knife, and if it's not on my person, it's in my car, secured within arms reach to the inside of the storage bin between the driver and passenger seat.

Re: laminated side windows

This is totally outside my experience...

Laminated glass is two sheets of tempered glass with a flexible sheet of plastic between them, right? So, if you were in a situation (not necessarily under water)where you needed to break your way out of it (side window) and had a spring-loaded punch, couldn't you break the glass, then kick it to beat it up more, and sort of force-fold it out of the way so you could get past it?

Sue

Generally, the laminated glass is only the windsheild and sometimes the rear window. The wide windows are just tempered glass- they'll go pretty easily with a good impact.

Martin, I'm surprised- I thought only armoured and industrial vehicles and certain very high performance sports cars used laminate on the side windows.

Just out of curiosity, what have you seen that had this? Because other than the relatively rare submerged scenario, I would think it would be a safety improvement.

Reading all this made me realize: Convertible cars/trucks don't have a chance underwater, do they? The passengers would find the top flattened down on them in an instant.

My Wife's is a 2001, around 2000 or 2001 the side windows were laminated in that model (Impala) and I think expanded to the rest of GM's models.

OK, I'm scratching my head on this. Really, if the roof of a convertible "collapsed," wouldn't that be just some cloth bumping your head? Just cut it open (yeah, it's tough cloth, but softer than steel).

And before you worry about tons of water on you, it's not like anyone that hasn't dived a few feet underwater didn't have water on them. All that water isn't focusing it's weight on a specific spot - or else scuba divers wouldn't get very far.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I put one of these in each of our cars. My kids (19, 22 & 24) thought I was nuts. It takes something like this to bring it home that you don't have to be necessarily 'near' water for an unplanned event like this to happen. I cable tied the ResQme to the pivot at to the left of the driver at the top of the seatbelt so that it is always within easy reach... I hope we never have to use it - but it's right there.

If it's cable tied, how will you use it without first needing to cut if free?

The design of the ResQme has a clip that has a hole in it. You attach the clip (which covers the seat belt cutter) to an anchor point and when you need to use the tool, you simply grasp the body of it and pull. The clip remains attached to the seat belt pivot, and the tool comes away in your hand ready to use! The removal of the clip uncovers the seat belt cutter as well.

Hope that helps -

Evan

Thanks, good explanation, now the zip tie attachment point makes sense.

I think no matter what, odds are pretty against you if you take an unexpected fall and end up underwater.

The Mythbusters episode where they tested this found that even under controlled conditions it was very difficult to escape in the time you could hold your breath, and that even in a controlled environment anxiety played a large role.

In the end, they had to do it a couple of times before he could relax enough to wait for the pressure to equalize.

If I recall, there were two successful modes of *opening* the door. One was if you pushed it open as soon as you hit the water. It took a lot of effort and wore the subject out. It only worked if he started almost the instant he hit.

The other mode was to wait for the water to equalize. I think they found if you struggled with the door too soon, you didn't have enough O2 to do it. You had to wait "calmly" until the right time.

I doubt many of us will have the chance to practice. So, if dropped 60' into the water while sitting in traffic, I'd say we'd all be pretty anxiety ridden and disoriented. Then, get it right the first time?

And the door opening trick depends on the door not being blocked by debris. In a controlled experiment there was nothing blocking the door. In bridge wreckage or simply on the bottom of a river, I'd say chances are good that there will be obstructions to opening your door. And even if only one door is blocked, if you spend all your energy and air trying to open the wrong one, you likely won't be able to try again.

They tried to break the window and they could not kick it out. The window punch worked.

Convertible?

Well, if the car was upside down, you'd be hosed.

If it was right side up, it *might* collapse and it might not. If it collapsed, I think this be pretty bad and add significantly to the disorientation. It would probably be pitch black (and it's going to be dark anyway), and you'd have no air reserve. The wind would probably be knocked out of you when you hit. Bad times.

It might not collapse, esp. if the windows were down. If the top were down and the car was upright, we enter into new territory.

If you hit and sink quickly, instead of having a 30 second air reserve, you are immediately under water. I suppose this would be the same if you had the windows down. In this case, I think things really depend on how stunned you are from hitting and how quickly you can regain your senses.

You probably could use the punch to break the laminated side glass and then kick it out. Once it is broken, it loses it's stiffness, and you could probably push it out. This doesn't work on the front because it is sealed all the way around. On the side it is only attached on the bottom and in tracks on the sides and tops. Kicking it should allow it to flex enough to come out of the tracks. But I sure wouldn't want to try it.

Laminated glass can also be cut after broken. If you had a large fixed bladed knife you could hack out a hole after it is broken. But this takes a lot of effort and doesn't seem very practical.

No matter which way you slice it, this is a bad scenario. The only thing we have evidence with is that the punch is about the best way to get out of a "normal" car. Laminated side glass seems like it would be a very bad thing in this case but the punch might help also.

FWIW, even though Mythbusters is on iTunes, they didn't seem to have that episode on-line yet. Maybe in the future they will.

-john

Here and here are a couple of videos where they tested some ways of escaping a sinking car.

Consensus: get out as early as possible, and breaking the glass is quicker & more effective than waiting until you can open the door.

The best auto escape tool I've seen so far was the Benchmade 10105 ERT-1 that was reviewed by Doug at SHOT Show 2007. It seems that it is one of the most versatile automobile escape tools made, including an LED light (that is conveniently aimed at the cutting blade), a spring-loaded window punch (which many believe to be superior to manual pointy-metal punches), and a folding/locking safety blade.

The only question I have is how to best store one of these (or any rescue tool like it) in your vehicle so you're sure you can reach it in an accident. The ERT-1 comes with a pocket clip, which is fine if you put it in your pocket, but I'd be afraid of it flying around in your car if clipped anywhere in your car. (Even a 3.6-ounce knife would hurt like hell when moving at 60 mph.) It also comes with a nylon sheath that can be mounted somewhere in your vehicle, and as long as the sheath is securely mounted, the knife should remain secure in the sheath until the moment you need it.

There's also always the option of sticking the ERT-1 in the glove box or center console compartments, but I prefer to avoid those locations for fear of the compartment being jammed shut or inaccessible after a collision.

Most modern cars have electrical window winders. So forget about trying to open a window. You also have the problem of the door and the car body distorting under the impact. Which what they are supposed to do. Cars are designed to protect the occupants from impact. They do that by transmitting the kinetic forces around the passenger compartment. Most of that protection is intended to protect from an impact to the front of the vehicle. Followed up by an impact to the rear. There is a degree of protection from side impacts. Although it is marginal at best. Forget about overhead protection. It is limited to protecting the occupants in the event of the vehicle going divergent in two axis.
What all of that means is that unless you get the door open before you enter the water, as you would for a light aircraft ditching, you are unlikely to escape. A 60ft drop is probably unsurvivable unless you impact right side up and as flat to the surface of the water as possible. That probably won't happen. The very best that anyone can hope for in a situation like the one in America is that death comes as swiftly and painlessly as possible.

JohnN:

I easily imagined cutting it, but I pictured a "plastic wrap" effect from the water pressure pushing the top in. I did rethink it and decided the zippers around the windows would let in water which would equalize the pressure and also that the top might simply get ripped off or torn, maybe creating an easy exit.

I imagined a plastic wrap effect as well. I think it would be analogous to being hit over the head, then throw into the water in a tied canvas bag in the pitch dark.

-john

I think most laminated glass is at least three layers of glass.

For what it is worth, I haven't broken any laminated side glass, but I have broken some laminated windshields (scrap yard vehicles). It takes me about a dozen hits with a tire iron to make a fist-sized opening. I would think it would take many repeated blows to create cracks horizontally across piece of laminated glass so that it could fold and be pushed out (if it is possible at all). Not to mention the shards being VERY sharp.

I definitely would not count on being able to do it in a few seconds.

Here's a huge (16MB+) .pdf study on laminated and "glazing" glass: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/PDF/nrd-11/glazingreport.pdf

Basically it says that it helps keep people not wearing seat belts from being thrown from cars, but increases head injuries compared to tempered safety glass and really isn't worth consideration with technology like side curtain airbags.

Veering off the topic a bit.... if I happened to win the lottery and could buy a new vehicle, could I order it with manual winder windows instead of electric ones? Do they still know how to make them?

Veering back on topic: what about those electric door LOCKS they've got now? Can't open the windows, can't get the doors open... All these features are supposed to be for our benefit, right?

Sue

The electric window motors and locks will still work when under water, remember the water doesn't conduct its the impurities in water and compared to the wiring to the motor, its not a very good conductor.
However in the mythbusters test they found that while the window motors worked fine, they couldn't roll down the window due to the pressure of the water, even with the manual windows.
All the vehicles I've seen with electric locks they still have a manual lock on the door somewhere, so you should still be able to unlock and escape.
I've also noticed that the newer cars with the laminated windows the window track is no longer inside the door. Used to be the door frame was a U shape and the track sat inside it, now its more of an L with the other side being nothing but the track so it should be easier to push the whole window out, but that would still require the inside to be full of water to equalize the pressure.
Maybe the new side air bags should have a smaller explosive charge to break the window when the airbag deploys.

The framework could easily trap or entangle you.

Jeff

Surprisingly, electric windows and door locks often continue to work for some time after immersion.

Jeff

While I have not needed to use it to date, I have a RESQME zip-tied to the pocket zipper of my rescue PFD. I figure if I am on a working water rescue and need quick entry into the vehicle, having the window punch and seatbelt cutter close at hand might save some valuable time.

Pete

Pete -
We did an "in the water" job a few months ago, a drunk into the canal. I had a standard push & snap punch in my hand, which I promptly dropped and lost the moment I got to the truck (the driver was actually in an OK space for air, we just needed to get the window out to make it easier to get to the "B" post. Since then, I've put a retractable lanyard on a punch for the in-water rig. We've been doing a lot of in-water rescue stuff lately, which has been really informative and useful, especially if you manage to get to someone who's alive but submerged - which is possible in some limited situations. The transition point - you have a car, there's SOME air in it (a pocket) and now you've got to leave the air pocket and surface, with a patient who might be broken. Just putting a drill together for this scenario is dangerous, actually doing it is even more risky.

I have looked at and purchased one of the retractable lanyards made by Hammerhead, but have been reluctant to use it for water rescue. I am a strong advocate of not hard trying anything to my water rescue gear/dry suit. What I have been using are those cheap plastic coil loops/lanyards that you can buy at the dollar store and generally come 4 to a pack. I have one for my whistle, knife, strobe, etc. I replace the steel split ring(s) with ones of stainless steel. These will support the weight of the gear, but will breakaway if the item becomes snagged.

Our water rescue calls are down this season. Considering the area drought, it is not surprising. We have had only a few calls on the Potomac or local rivers/streams; most have been for missing swimmers or boaters.

We conduct our formal Swiftwater/Flood Water Task Force training quarterly, with a few extras drills thrown in throughout the year. Many of our boat companies also have monthly drills to supplement the quarterly drills.

We are in the process of updating our guidelines and training requirements for all of our Spec Ops. Right now we are looking to set up several formal boat operator and technical animal rescue classes this fall in an effort to meet the pending National Credentialing Program.

Pete