Can anyone tell me of a good windproof/waterproof lighter? <br>I currently carry two disposable scripto ligters, one in my pocket, and another one sealed in a small ziplock-type bag. The one in my pocket has been ruined before, but never both. But since I a firm believer in Murphy, I'd like to go with something a little more sturdy. I've been looking at a couple different ones, but was just wondering if anyone has some suggestions. If I have to spend $40-$50 I will, but I'd rather not, so if someone can tell me of an inexpensive one I'd really appreciate it. <br><br>Thanks in advance.<br><br>Chris.

IMHO don't spend $40-$50 on one. Buy a handfull of cheap disposables like Scripto or Cricket and stash them around. Waterproof them by putting them in baggies or something. Windproof them by getting well sheltered when you try to light your fire. <br><br>While in fact my old Zippo is still my prime outdoor and general camping lighter, I own (and am affiliated with a shop that sells and repairs lighters) many. From butane/flint, to butane/quartz ignition.... from $12 to $150.00. EVERY ONE will fail from time to time: fuel, ignition, lint, moisture, etc. My PSK has alternate fire starting options, and also a cheap cricket brand butane lighter. I must be afraid of being without a fire, because I probably have 3-4 disposable butane lighters stashed in my gear somewhere when I go out. <br><br>

Yes I will second Naro on his opinion. I have a Windmill lighter that didn't perform that well in the water. Than amount of time it took to make it work again was another disapointment. Carry couple of lighters and a zippo, put some matches in your PSK. I mean it's kewl to have this nice cutting jet flame but it's not worth all this cash. I wish I was smarter when I was getting it.<br><br>Matt

sportsmansguide.com has the double torch for around 20.00 and another style for around 15.00

i concur with nero & polak. i carry the zippo and several disposable bics when i have the room. i have a four finger firestarter immitation in my psk that i made from a bic lighter. i also carry the flint and magnesium when i can.

I'm not going to pretend this is a professional opinion, but I did take a course on (believe it or not) Software Reliability last year. <br><br>Basically, there are two ways in which software (or anything else) can be made more reliable - quality, or redundancy. <br><br>Quality means, basically, making something to Mil Specs, or higher. The disadvantage to relying on this is that even the most expensive, well-engineered lighter can be lost.<br><br>Redundancy means having more than one. The disadvantage is that, if they're all designed the same, they can all fail at the same time. E.g. I found out last winter that my Coleman camp stove will not light at temperatures of -30. Having a second, identical stove would have been of no use. (It's important to read the fine print on your survival gear :-) Fortunately, my "backup" was a heated lodge with a wood stove. :-)<br><br>One technique used in Software Reliability is to have the same program written from scratch, to the same specs, by two or more completely different teams of programmers; this greatly reduces the risk that a single error condition will cause all the programs to fail. The point is, redundancy alone is not enough - you need diversity as well. I would carry a number of different tools - a couple of disposable lighters, securely bagged in plastic; maybe a mini-Butane cutting torch (can be used to make repairs); a couple of flints crazy-glued to the outside of my PSK; a Fresnel magnifier in my wallet. Maybe a Fire Piston, or a hunk of steel wool and a flashlight; some magnesium shavings wrapped in tinfoil and taped inside my SAS Gem Survival manual. <br><br>(A co-worker of mine, who is a professional in the area of Human Factors, lent me a book called "Set Phasers on Stun", by Steven Carey. It's a series of case studies of things that went wrong - usually with tragic consequences - due to some small, seemingly insignificant design flaw. While it doesn't deal with Survival in the way we tend to think about it, it is a well-written and interesting book, and a sobering reminder of how important it is to pay attention to the little things. ISBN: 0963617885 for anyone who's interested.<br><br>

>>Basically, there are two ways in which software (or anything else) can be made more reliable - quality, or redundancy.<<<br><br>Right - parallel redundancy increases reliability. Your example of diverse fire starting means is that sort of thing. Reliability theory at its root is pretty common sense (and calculating the specifics is not all that onerous, either).<br><br>But your stove failure intrigues me. I've used a few different white gas appliances at colder temps than that, including three different Colemans (two burner green box, old style "Sportster" on a lantern body, and original Peak 1 - plus Svea 123 and MSR XGK). Fuel makes a difference, or at least it did those years for me. I used Blazo (Chevron brand, IIRC), and it was probably refined locally (Alaska or possibly Canada). In cold temps, I found Coleman fuel to be "lazy" at igniting and Blazo to be "vigorous" - too much so in hot temps (summertime) actually - at least for my comfort level.<br><br>As for the stoves - In extreme cold the Svea had to be pump primed and babied - NO wind or it would slowly fade, and always insulated from the ground. The rest worked fine. The two burner could be a beast to get buring clean - I found that some careful pre-heating of the generator helped - but once it was going, it was fine (and a new generator sometimes works a miracle). The rest of the stoves were fine - preheating was/is part of the ritual for me with those stoves most of the time unless it's warm out.<br><br>The coldest I am absolutely certain that I have used Coleman fuel in a two burner green box is -25 F. It worked fine; fuel was fresh and the stove was nearly new, FWIW.<br><br>So... maybe it was your fuel and/or an old generator? Fresh Blazo is the best I've used in extreme temps. It was available in either 5 gallon cans or 55 gallon drums and I suppose it still is. Might be worth scrounging some up and trying it out this winter.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

There are quite a few from the windmill / windmill delta / brunton helios / Storm lighter.<br>I didn't fork out the cash for the windmill but bought a Storm lighter instead. - it certainly is windproof, but it ain't waterproof - even with the o-ring. From the posts about the windmill, neither is the windmill. I don't know about the delta or the brunton helios monster, but you could get an inexpensive storm lighter (windproof definitely) but don't count on it being waterproof.<br>You would want to keep other waterproof fire starting options from ziplocked household matches and bic lighters to the flints to the sparklight. Carry many, many options....<br><br>

Man, let me put it to you this way...I was asking the exact same question a year ago, and I settled on a $50 Windmill Delta Lighter. I bought the hype that it was "waterproof, shockproof, windproof, etc." It did get submerged for about 10 minutes while I was swimming, and to be honest, it worked fine afterwards.<br><br>However, I also had an 89 cent Bic lighter in my pocket. And while they dont claim their lighters are "waterproof," it also worked fine afterwards. And, with a little drying out period, it will most likely work everytime it is submerged. Get yourself a couple of the Bics next time your at the gas station. <br><br>If you'd like to test the Bic yourself, try "accidentally" leaving it in a pocket when you wash your jeans. This has happened to me numerous times, and they always come back to life after a couple of minutes.<br><br>I agree with NAro and Polak, save your cash.<br><br>John McIntire

I think we all desire the one lighter that will be the the ultimate 'everything-proof' unit but as mentioned in this forum, it will probably get lost at some stage so we will always need some backup. I think it is fair to say that one lighter won't be the answer so then my advice is to get one that you like. By this I mean pick a lighter that does what you want most of the time and have matches or flint/striker on standby<br><br>I carry a Prince Pocket Torch providing the mega hot flame. They don't work very well in extremes but having a flame that will burn practically anything is awesome. I love they way the burn upside down. Great for lighting tea candles, hex tablets and starting fires very quickly, as often you don't need to prepare as much in the way of tinder/kindling. Throw some sticks together and unlleash its 1300 degree flame....argh argh ...argh<br><br>Now that I have an awesome lighter that will burn in most conditions, having something that will make a fire when it all turns to custard. I just made myself a backup firelighter system using an old mini-maglight.<br><br>I removed as much as I could from the insides of the maglight to be effectivly left with a waterproof tube. I bought a basic flint striker and with some ingenuity attached it to the end cap. The end cap screws back in to the maglight body remaining hidden. I then shortend the flint (that was fun with a hacksaw :-)) so that there was enough room left in the maglight tube so that I could store one peice of quaility tinder. (It remains waterproof and still looks like a mini-mag)<br><br>This means that whenever I go out I have a great lighter that will burn most things but if a real emergeny occured, I have a quaility flint for starting fires and one peice of tinder for getting me started.<br><br>Heres something to ponder....have you noticed that wind generally makes natural fires work better and makes articial fires work worse....mmm<br><br><br><br><br>

I agree with the consensus of this thread, too. I have tried some of the premium lighters, but I keep going back to the disposable butane lighter. You sacrifice the windproof quality, but they are smaller, weigh less, burn forever, are at least as reliable, easily sourced and dirt cheap. I have found the ones with electronic ignition light well after a dunking, so you may want to include one of those along with a flint-wheel lighter. The Cricket brand is the smallest. Bic is good. I am not crazy about the Scripto brand.<br><br>The expensive lighters that use the jet-style flame have their advantages, but gram for gram and dollar for dollar, the disposable lighter is an amazing survival tool.<br>

I'm a zippo person for primary use. I do have other options though.<br><br>Bic disposible in lunchbox.<br>flint and saw striker on keychain (courtesy of boy scouts)<br>spark lite in tin<br>strike anywhere matches soaked in linseed oil in tin<br>telescope lens in tin<br>a few .22 shells just about everywhere

You´ve made a good point here. Redundacy requires a thorough study of possible reasons for failure and dependencies. Sometimes having two identical items will be enough (if one lighter is empty it doesn´t effect an other one) sometimes it requires a different principle (like in your example with the stove).<br>One of my instructors once said: 'There isn´t such a thing like a little thing. There are only details. So take care of them.' . Well, taking care of the details saved my day more than once.

It was a fairly new stove, hardly ever used, bought the previous summer and only used in summer. Coleman Feather 442 Dual Fuel.<br><br>I pumped it up and tried to light it the way I normally would, but it simply wouldn't light. Later, after I got home, I looked at the instructions on the side of the stove and realized there was a note I hadn't seen before:<br><br>*Note: In temperatures below freezing, PREHEATING PASTE may be needed to heat generator before lighting.<br><br>I was misled by the apparent simplicity of the stove; the mechanism is pretty much identical to the "Green Suitcase" model that's been around since I was a boy. Why I would need PREHEATING PASTE in cold temperatures, I don't know. Maybe all Coleman stoves have the same caveat; I haven't had too many occasions to light them at 30 below, even in Calgary. I can only assume that it had something to do with the volatility of the fuel at low temperatures. The preheating paste would warm the fuel flow tube and raise the temperature of the fuel as it passed through. I was using standard Coleman campstove fuel.

I don't know much about lighters except from being a former pack-a-day cigarette smoker who lit a lot of cigarettes outdoors in all different weather conditions. My experience as a former consumer of many plasitc Bic lighters was that they were generally reliable and they seemed to last forever. IMHO, the cheap, redundant, plentiful choice (a couple of colorful plasitc Bics plus waterproof camping matches plus alternative fire starter) is a terrific way to go. The combined weight and bullk is nothing, you can share some if need be, and you can spend the savings on something nice for your wife (which is another survival topic altogether). <br><br>If you really want to spend the large $$$ (i.e., $15-20), buy a Blast Match or Strike Force firestarter. While both designs can be criticized, they really do make decent firestarting sparks without much effort, and I wouldn't want to be without one.

>>The expensive lighters that use the jet-style flame have their advantages, but gram for gram and dollar for dollar, the disposable lighter is an amazing survival tool.<br><br>Why not go for the best of both worlds? I bought a mini-butane torch from Radio Shack (unfortunately, I can't find it anymore - grr arrgh) which used a replaceable plastic "fuel cell". The fuel cell was essentially a disposable lighter with no flint or striking wheel. I bought two disposable lighters which were exactly the same shape (I think I got a 2-for-1 deal), tossed the fuel cell and replaced it with the lighter; it worked fine. If, for any reason, the piezo-electric starter goes bust, the "fuel cell" doubles as a disposable lighter; and for good measure, all my disposable lighters double as replacement fuel cells. :-)<br><br>The torch was about the size of a Zippo, made of bright yellow plastic.

How the Bics are made:<br><br>http://www.bicworld.com/inter_en/lighters/how_is_made/index.asp

Penrith survival equipment has one for sale at £24.

I saw that same Colibri in black with the "Eddie Bauer" logo for sale at Target for about $30.