One of those long car trip discussions led to the following question:

"Are you better off to avoid eating rabbit in a survival situation?"

You would inevitably die of malnutrition on a diet solely consisting of rabbit meat, but would it be useful in a short-term survival situation? It would certainly help with morale, but would the body waste so much energy with digestion that you would be best to avoid it?

I've heard suggestions that the bone marrow and brains might be better than nothing, and if you had some form of fat in which to cook the rabbit it could make it okay (a good reason for having a tallow candle), but nothing convincing either way when it comes to eating just the rabbit.


Does anyone know for certain whether a person could derrive any worthwhile energy from eating rabbit over the short term?

The problem is that rabbit meat is low in fat. If you eat some of the organs, liver, kidneys etc..., then the fat issue is solved. Even scrapping the fat off of the skin will help.
cheers

I admit to being totally puzzled by this. Doesn't the human body convert all excess calories into fat regardless of the source? I can understand the need for the consumption of fats in order to keep up energy levels in an active survival scenario, and I can understand a hungry person craving fats (happens to me all the time ). But are there actual reports of people starving to death on a rabbit meat diet that are not merely anecdotal?

Eating rabbit is not harmful - there's no reason to avoid it. Its just that eating rabbit alone is not enough in the long term. According to this article:
http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time%201-2/vilhjalmur_stefansson1.htm
Your body can only process at most 1600 calories of protein a day, which is a starvation level ration for most people.

So if all you eat is rabbit you will eventually starve to death.

If you don't eat ANYTHING, you will starve to death much faster.

Yes and no. You can convert it to sugars (liver) or fats. The problem is, your body needs certain fats that it can't manufacture. Just like "essential vitamins" that you need to eat, there are a few fats you need to eat.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I wonder if this phenomenon applies equally to domesticated rabbits as well as wild ones?

I guess this means that we should all carry a good supply of candy bars any time we're stepping out our front door.

Sue

I'm with Susan - you better have a side of Dove bars with that rabbit, just in case.


Frank2135

If rabbits do not contain any fat, then what are fat rabbits made of? I've seen some rabbits that need some diet and exercise in my days.



Could it be that rabbits just don't contain certain fats we need to consume, but still contain other fats?

Hmmm...people with no other source of food but rabbits, rabbits with no fat on them...sounds like we're talking the end of a long winter. Lean people eating nothing but lean rabbits = starvation.

Has anyone else heard that if you eat some of the organs (notably eyes, kidneys and liver) and the bone marrow that you can avoid the protein starvation problem? I read something to that effect, not that long ago.

Frank2135

I attended Arctic survival school in 1973. The rabbit population had bottomed out, which Biologists have noted may be cyclic. The USAF in it's wisdom had conducted classes in the same area for several years. Even to my untrained eye it had the look of a Civil War battle puzzle with all the horses mising. We stomped around building snares and shooting the Ithaca survival rifle.I never once saw a rabbit. My issue Camillus survival knife snapped batoning firewood. The instructors were impressed with the speed and craft with which I built my survival trench.The group retired hungry. I crawled into the privacy of my sleeping bag and blocked entry with rucksack. I pulled the Camillus utility folder, as yet unbroken ( I would destroy it years later decorking wine) and cut the internal panel thread on my parka.I extracted ; Hershey bars, cheese,pilot bread and smoked salmon. I resolved that night to find a better knife, worthy survival rifle ( my present Smelly with 215 grain rhino bullets) and, raising my fist, announced " As God is my witness ( chomp! chomp!), I'll never go hungry again!" My voice carried better than I thought. My CPO, a thin Georgia Cracker whispered " Hey Scarlet O'Hara, trade you some cornbread and porkfat, I know you have something.

Not being much of a candy eater, when you mention Dove bars I think of a bar of soap...

I had a couple of "Dove Bars" shoved in my mouth as a kid after I got a little "sailor mouth" with my mom!!

Dove chocolate is some of the best domestic chocolate you can buy. It's very smooth & creamy.

"...issue Camillus survival knife snapped..."

No surprise there.

For a while in the '70's the Air Farce had a survival school at Altus AFB, OK. Lots of lectures, hands on stuff, then the E&E part. First you were "captured" by the "VC," pushed around, tossed into a pit full of snakes (they hated it if you just picked up a couple and played with them, instead of going nutso), made to sit cross legged with a pole sticking up between your legs for a while (pain starts within seconds), stuck in a wall locker burned in the ground (it gets hot in those things in OK in the summer), etc. Then, after a couple of days of that fun, comes the E&E part. They let everyone go with a little head start, and had local Native Americans, playing VC come after you. Avoid capture for 24 hours and you are done. Get caught and you get another day in "prison." "This is the real thing gentlmen" the instructors said, then they continued with "do not go beyond that ridgeline, do not go beyond that fence," etc. Yeah, right Sarge. It was discovered that beyond that fence a ways was a little Army installation, tents, generator, refers with food, cots, etc, and NO ONE was home. Nice place to kill 24 hours, then back over the fence and home free. Such fun...

What, they didn't make you eat the Armadillo???!!!

As for eating rabbit, you can be packing 100 lbs of extra fat and still get protein sickness after a short period of eating nothing but lean meat. For the record, I don't recommend messing with wild rabbit internals.

Candy is dandy, but some whole grains will do you better and be a lot easier on your system. The body can only store about two days worth of carbs in the form of glycogen, vs and endless supply of fat (well, until morbidity catches up to ya). Of course, the body converts some carbs into fat, but it isn't very efficient at it.

Pemmican I tells ya. It is the best survival food you can find, and it is highly versatile. A little goes a long ways, especially if you have a good protein source. It's been THE survival food for the past few hundred years at least.

"...they didn't make you eat the Armadillo???..."

Nope. But they did once make us eat the raw boa constrictor...

For short term, your fine. You've got enough fat on you, even that is only part of the problem.

"Pemmican I tells ya. It is the best survival food you can find, and it is highly versatile. A little goes a long ways, especially if you have a good protein source. It's been THE survival food for the past few hundred years at least."

The Native Americans probably created pemmican so they wouldn't die of rabbit starvation.

Fat rabbits don't exist in the wild. But has anyone ever butchered a fat domestic rabbit? Is there any difference there? Or is it a matter of rabbit meat is rabbit meat?

Sue

"Candy is dandy, but some whole grains will do you better and be a lot easier on your system. The body can only store about two days worth of carbs in the form of glycogen, vs and endless supply of fat (well, until morbidity catches up to ya). Of course, the body converts some carbs into fat, but it isn't very efficient at it."


OK, OK. I'll switch from Dove bars to Snickers.


Frank2135

Thanks to everyone for the input!

I'm not really sure that eating rabbit is better than starvation due to the mechanism involved. It amost seems to be more a case of poisoning than starvation. Assuming there is no other food source mightn't it cause more problems than it solves?

You should probably be able to live for at least 3 weeks without food, whereas rabbit starvation can start to affect you within a week. The nausea and diarreha might have a far more detrimental effect than starvation alone.

I suppose that nowadays it's a rather unlikely situation, but I'm surpised at how little research has been done into it.

So far the conclusions I've drawn from this thread are:

• It's not "bodyfat," it's a "survival buffer zone."
• Always carry chocolate bars. Dove bars are yummy.
• Chocolate bunnies are probably better than the real thing (and far easier to catch).
• Use caution when opening wine with Camillus knives -- they're getting harder to replace every day.
• That pemmican stuff sounds pretty good.

Try a Payday- never melts. :P

Do you know what pemmican is?

Most people put it one step up from haggis. I like haggis, so I'm not sure my vote on food counts. :P

I think you've got a pretty good handle on it. Besides, they carry 'rabbit fever', aka Tularemia. And they can bite. And rip with the nails on their hind feet.

Sue

"...if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying..."

Great minds think alike!!!

Probably tastes like raw chicken, but I haven't tried that...

Yep, you are right. It doesn't count.


-Blast

Thanks for the link. I find it kind of surprising that the theory seems to be so universally accepted when, as they say: "Clinical documentation of this syndrome is virtually nonexistent, except for a single case study." Somebody should do some more research on the subject. I'd like to know how long an average person could go on nothing but lean meat. It would be a far more useful study than some of the other stuff that passes for research these days.

"... a far more useful study than some of the other stuff that passes for research these days..."

What, you don't want some starving student to get a monster federal grant to study the sex life of the Ethopian pissant???

Now there's a study! I wonder how long one can survive eating nothing but Ethiopian pissants?

Hopefully not long, if our tax dollars are paying for it...

And how many times I have I talked about food and had you almost drooling?

I'm wondering if squirrel meat is any better than rabbit meat ?

LW.

I honestly don't know. It may be that an area that supports squirrels supports enough other wildlife that we don't have historical examples of people having to eat nothing but squirrel meat for several days. I get the sense that the "rabbit starvation" stories all involve an environment that literally didn't support any game other than rabbits or hares.

A step up from haggis?

Not possible.


It's the " Great Chieftan o' the Puddin-race" haggis doncha know!

I once dated a pissant. I was only able to survive him for about three weeks.

Pissant, definitely not the other white meat!

seems like in the journals of Lewis and Clarke they mention living on 5-7 pounds of elk per person per day and for weeks at a time????? anyone confirm this please......
I grew up on deep fried rabbit....farmers would give them to my father plus my father hunted rabbit...of course we ate the rabbit with green beans and mashed potatoes with my mom's patented gravy! rabbits are a 'clean' animal when compared to a chicken and deep frying in peanut oil was a big plus for preventing protein intoxication.
In my backpack for hiking is always a bottle of olive oil....might as well put one in the BOB

Yes, it is true that the Lewis and Clark expedition reported consuming on average 8 lbs per person per day of venison and elk. Bear in mind that it wasn't only meat they ate, for they were able to forage Camas, berries, and barter for other items from the locals. They needed that much because of the amount of work they were doing.

Rabbit is a healthy protein source in the diet. If you add a little starch and fat, such as your mother did based on your description of the meals she cooked, then you enjoyed a well rounded, nutritious childhood it sounds like.

The problem is with eating just rabbit and nothing else. You would get the same effect eating whitefish, or squirrel, or any other lean meat and not having anything else to consume.

One thing that Lewis and Clark had, which contains protein, fats, carbs, and lots of nutrition in a small package, was pemmican. Pemmican was the survival food for injuns, explorers, trappers, pioneers. Hudsons Bay had standing orders with many tribes for regular procurement for their trapping troops.

"And it's got big nasty teeth."

Apologies for any aversions to Monty Python.

Frank2135

When I was in the AF we had a saying "work smarter not harder." I see now that adage goes way back.

I'm wondering if there is something MORE to rabbits in terms of nutritional value than only the meat.

Could it be that "rabbit starvation" is caused by improper food preparation ? Larry Dean Olson recommends eating the ENTIRE ANIMAL and not only the meat. Olson's method involves removing the skin and the guts, and then pounding everything else into a hamburger patty, bone and all. If Olson is correct, then you may be discarding a great deal of nutritional value if you consume the meat and throw everything else into the trash.

LW.

"...eating the ENTIRE ANIMAL..."

My ex used to have a cat that was a super hunter, brought a cottontail home almost every evening. Stupid cat would sit on the patio and eat everything except one little organ and the tail. And he was the skinniest scrawniest looking cat you ever saw...

Wasn't there a "diet" that recommended eating as much lean meat as you wanted and cutting out carbs like bread and potatoes to lose weight quickly?

The Mormon Emergency Preparedness Manual recommends storing 20 lbs. of cooking oil or other "fat" sources per average adult per year. Using that recommendation as a guide, a small bottle of cooking oil, clarified butter or even peanut butter squeeze tubes in the BOB or pack should stave off the effects of "rabbit starvation" for quite a while.

I recommend the peanut butter. It has other benefits as well, and won't rancidate as quickly.

I like to pack those little complimentary tubs o' peanut butter by smuckers that I get at restaurants once in a while.